IDF battles Qassams with informants

[pelsar]

Army has distributed leaflets around Gaza with a telephone number for residents to call and report on Qassam launchers
Hanan Greenberg

The IDF has distributed leaflets throughout the Gaza Strip with a telephone number for residents to call and inform on the names and location of Qassam rocket launchers.

While the army has used this technique with the Palestinian population in the past, it has never been used to recruit informants.

This move signals an attempt by the IDF to increase its cooperation and publicity efforts with parts of the population not involved in terrorism and violence towards Israel.

Under the heading, "An Announcement to all Palestinian residents of the Gaza Strip," the leaflet reads, "the IDF will continue to operate against terror organizations until a complete halt of all terror attacks is achieved."

"In order to ensure your safety, stay away from the areas where the rockets are launched! You fully understand the damage caused by

the rockets due to the proximity of your homes, which the irresponsible terrorists carry out despite endangering your safety."

"Now, every resident can protect himself and his family from harm caused by rocket launchers. Don't hesitate! Dial 054-6912273 to prevent rocket fire and handle over information regarding the activities of those perpetrators.Information received will be useful to maintain your safety, as well as for your family and friends."

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/1,7340,L-3161016,00.html

i admit to being quite skeptical of such a thing...yet according to an aticle in Fridays Hebrew Paper (maariv)...the IDF is now getting real sms messages.

now it could be related to the fact that the IDF now uses artillary to respond to rocket attacks....shelling the area of the launch...at any rate if its true (and I still remain skeptical) I see it as very good news..the palestenains rejecting rocket attacks on israel-obviously not for an idealistic reason but to keep their homes from being blown up. The result however is the same....concentrating on improving their lives and not killing israelis.

[occuserpens]

1. Well, that's old news: 10.29.05

[pelsar]

2. the results are new

dec 2, has the results that its working

[Andromeda]

3. It is good news...

Palestinians are probably getting tired of all the fighting and just want to live in peace.

[manic expression]

4. Oh, please

Are you serious? The reason the attacks stopped was because the border was put where it belongs, in Palestinian hands. IDF destroying houses probably did more to encourage the attacks than anything else.

Does it seem a little wrong? To shell an ENTIRE area for one specific attack? To destroy houses of bystanders because of something out of their control? Yes, it is wrong.

[pelsar]

5. er the attacks didnt stop....

you should know your time line a bit better......

when the IDF left, what israel was received was a battery of missles and mortors....they stopped when the iDF returned with shelling.

and so it went for the last month....now its more sporatic......

[manic expression]

9. Perhaps

you should think a bit more.

"now its more sporatic"

Exactly. Why? Ask yourself that. I'll give you a big hint: it wasn't because of wanton collective punishment.

[barb162]

6. Attacks on Israel did not stop

[manic expression]

10. Sure,

but there are less, are there not?

[bemildred]

7. Gaza militants fire more rockets after Israeli air raids

GAZA CITY (AFX) - Palestinian militants carried out more cross-border rocket attacks from the Gaza Strip after Israel launched a series of air raids and pounded the territory with artillery fire.

Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, an armed offshoot of the ruling Fatah faction, said it had fired two missiles at dawn into southern Israel in response to the killing of two Palestinians yesterday, one of the most violent days in Gaza since Israel pulled its troops out of the territory in September.

The Israeli military also reported that two makeshift rockets landed in the village of Shuva in the Negev desert, damaging a house and leaving several people in a state of shock. There was no immediate claim of responsibility.

While the new attacks did not cause any casualties, they looked set to prompt more retaliation from Israel after its defence minister and army chief of staff both pledged to match fire with fire.

Forbes

[pelsar]

8. its sporadic

and less accurate...as they spend much less time setting up and aiming...and gone are the days of 5-10-20 missiles

though one would have to wonder why they are even shooting a single missle at this point.

[manic expression]

11. Did you even read the article

it was in response to an Israeli action. That means it is connected to what Israel is doing. That means it is not sporadic or random, but because of something that happened.

[barb162]

12. Which paragraph(s) are you referencing?

and from which article

[pelsar]

13. in response to what israeli action?

its getting kind of old...blaming israel for everything the palestenains do.....they have gaza, they have access to the world via egypt.....israel pulled out.....

all the palestenians have to do is stop shooting at israel...its really that simple. However, like in the north, and now like in gaza an like in pre67, the issue appears to be be not any borders, but israels mere existance....unless of course you have a better reason why those in gaza they keep lobbing missles into israel, or why hizballa keeps attacking israel up north.

[tinnypriv]

14. One of the main reasons for the Hezbollah fire

Is because Israel has consistently refused diplomatic efforts to quiet the border. One such proposal shot down a year or so back was for Israel to simply stop "violating Lebanese airspace in return for quiet".

Syria was attempting to broker this even as Israel was carrying out threatening invasion exercises and loudly talking about overthrowing the Syrian regime (after having bombed the place and "buzzed" an Assad palace as well).

[eyl]

15. And why

did Israel "bomb the place"?

[tinnypriv]

17. If memory serves

It was in response to a terrorist attack (one that wasn't convenient to blame on Arafat).

Whether Syria had any connection I've no idea, since Iran is a far more likely outside supporter of such terrorist attacks, at least according to the foremost Israeli analysis.

In any event, its hard to take the pronouncements of IDF military intelligence seriously since they themselves admit lying even to the Israeli press (even to folks like Ze'ev Schiff who I think supported retaliation against Syria).

Assuming the entire tale to be true, it has no effect whatsoever on my point, which was that Syria proposed a serious de-esclation initiative (one of many actually) with regards to the north, and it was rejected out of hand by Israel, barely being reported. This constant rebuffing of peace "feelers" from Syria got to such a scale back in the period in question that even mainstream Ha'aretz editorialists were discussing "Jerusalem's Rejectionists", speculating that Syria might as well fire a volley of rockets into Tel Aviv since that would be the only way to get the attention of Sharon (who incidentially admits peace with Syria is possible, but rejects peace in favour of expansion - a little like Meir in 1970).

[eyl]

21. I don't recall any time

that Hizbullah attacks were "blamed on Arafat".

Given that Syria was, at the same time, also hosting and supporting organizations formally after Israel's destruction, not to mention which commit constant attacks against Israeli citizens, their suggestion of "de-escalation" is less than serious.

[tinnypriv]

26. The justification

For the bombing of Syria was a terrorist attack in Israel, not a Hezbollah attack. Israel bombed a "training camp" or something.

As for your comment about Syria not being serious, that is irrelevant -even if it had any basis, which it almost certainly doesn't- since Syria's proposals were dismissed without any test, or even any formal response. Unless you happen to assume that any diplomatic channels are pointless with Assad's dictatorship (I don't), I don't see how that "non-serious" statement applies.

Note that even if it did apply, it would still be erroneous, since Israel has happily negotiated with Hezbollah itself, even on an issue of minimal importance. Why not with Syria? Sure, Syria might be lying, or "non-serious" as you say, but it might be worth finding out if that is the case, and in this example, all Israel would have to do would be stop breaking international law with illegal flyovers of another country, namely Lebanon. In return, many Israeli lives could be saved in the context of this specific proposal.

Remember, this "Syrian Proposal" (as termed by Ma'ariv) was backed by formal visits to Israel, obviously leaked to the (domestic Israel) press by somebody unhappy with the IDF/Israeli government stand, and is amply backed up by the tenor of subsequent reporting, culminating in the apt "Jerusalem's Rejectionist's" description in Ha'aretz (far from the most vocal, or anguished term used, even in the right-wing media; can give you the citations if you like).

[eyl]

28. Right, I misremembered

it was an IJ attack. Doesn't change much

[pelsar]

16. who is hizballa?

as far as i understand they are a bunch of thugs occupying S.Lebanon...since when does a terrorist organization that terrorizes the people its occupying having any say in what the relationship is between different two countries?

[tinnypriv]

18. .

now it could be related to the fact that the IDF now uses artillary to respond to rocket attacks....shelling the area of the launch...at any rate if its true (and I still remain skeptical) I see it as very good news

This tactic was reported a while ago in Israel. Ha'aretz quoted internal cabinet discussion about it.

What you consider "very good news", the Attorney-General of Israel called a "war crime....from the point of view of the State and personally".

Just FYI.

[pelsar]

19. it depends upon the point of view....

its not the attorney -general that has to sit on the border, watching...or beyond, to prevent missle attacks..so yes I definitly prefer that artillary is used....

anyway i doubt the attorney-general has a better solution other then sending me in across the border (which in itself illegal) to ambush the missle shooters.

perhaps you have a solution?....would love to hear it.

[barb162]

22. Here's the usual do-nothing condemnation blab

snip"
Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat immediately condemned the attack on behalf of the Palestinian Authority.

"I believe that this harms Palestinian interests and is another act to sabotage efforts to revive the peace process and to sabotage the Palestinian elections," Erekat said. A parliamentary is scheduled for January." snip

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/12/05/israel.blast/index.html

[eyl]

20. As I recall

what Mazuz said would be illegal was indiscriminate artillery fire into Gaza in response to missiles - not using artillery to target launch areas.

[tinnypriv]

23. If you search the forum

Which I can't do anymore, you'll find the Ha'aretz article which discussed this (posted by me I think). An op-ed columnist in the same paper endorsed this on the basis of an "eye for an eye".

I think any reasonable reading of the AG's comments is that he is talking about prohibition of retaliation directed with the knowledge of civilian collateral damage (even with "prior warning"). That is what the policy apparently is.

Note that the deputy defense minister of Israel has talked about Israeli battle plans which include "non-targeted killing" and "purging" in response to Kassam attacks. And Ma'ariv even ran a headline once saying that Sharon had declared "civilian homes" to be fair game if the population did not proactively combat Kassam teams. How is that any different from what is being reported?

If you want the references to what I've said above, I will dig them out of my files. They were barely reported, as usual.

[pelsar]

24. chief of staff said...

he would make the shooting areas into a DMZ...meaning a free fire zone. Since i am against using as well as giving in to the use of human shields I think its a good idea.

shoot a kassam..pulverize the area with artillary. If the PA cant control its population israeli citizens do not have to sit back and be killed.

the options are very few here (though I am open to ideas?)

the PA said and the intl community put the pressure for israel to leave gaza...well israel left.....if the PA cant control its own population they had no right in asking israel to leave.

and if they keep on shooting at israel.....israel has every right to shoot back without endagering its own soldiers.....that means using such means as artilary and missles which by their nature are a bit inaccurate.

but again..i am open to realistic suggestions?....any?

[eyl]

25. As I recall

(and I can't search the forums either), his "illegal" comments referred to the deputy defense minister's comments.

Which are not the same as targeting launch sites, even if they're in proximity to civilians.

[tinnypriv]

27. Mazuz wasn't aware of Boim's comments

At the time, since they were made elsewhere (after this cabinet meeting I think).

As far as I know (and I've looked at this a lot), Mazuz never said anything about Boim's comments, and few people even know about them, because they were never even reported in the press in Israel (they were made on the second channel), never mind anywhere else. I do know a major human rights organisation wrote to Mazuz, but if he got back to them it escaped my attention.

I have the exact timeline at home - I will provide it to you, though it is a minor affair, and doesn't alter the context of what I said.

[eyl]

29. OK, I think

I've found a reference to what you're talking about - as far as I see, what Mazuz said was illegal was a proposal to retaliate by shelling Palestinian towns - once again, that's not the same as shelling the launch areas, even if there are civilians there.