Katz: Bomb Strip, make Gazans flee

[Scurrilous]

While IDF continues to mull reaction to rocket strikes, agriculture minister wants to see Gazans flee to Sinai

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3187884,00.html

<snip>

"Israel should bomb the Gaza Strip and force residents in some areas to flee to the Sinai desert in Egypt, Agriculture Minister Yisrael Katz (Likud) proposed in response to ongoing Qassam rocket attacks from Gaza."

<snip>

"Katz told Ynet, “The government has to adopt a more useful deterrence policy. If there is no calm here there will be no calm there. If the options are that Israeli southern communities suffer rocket fire or Gazans flee to Sinai under Israeli bombardment, I prefer the second option.”

“I never said we should hit civilian population centers, yet there is no escape from hitting launching sites, even if they are situated among civilian populations, as long as we warn the population that we are about to fire,” Katz said."

<snip>

"Katz’s proposed solution to Qassam fire drew a series of condemnations from political figures. Former Shin Bet chief and Labor candidate Ami Ayalon criticized Katz, saying diplomatic negotiations with the Palestinian Authority and an eventual agreement would guarantee a solution to Qassam fire."

[Scurrilous]

1. Mofaz orders air strikes in Gaza

Israel air force to continue strikes in Gaza, defense minister orders Thursday; security officials instruct military to target Qassam launching sites with artillery fire, sabotage bridges, infrastructure; however, no ground operation planned in meantime

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3188837,00.html

<snip>

"Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz ordered the IAF on Thursday to continue air strikes deep into Palestinian territory in Gaza in response to ongoing Qassam attacks on Israel in recent days. The decision to carry on with the strikes was taken during a meeting Mofaz held with senior officials to evaluate the escalation in the security situation.

The evaluation was conducted under the heavy impression left by the Qassam fire on an Israeli army base south of Ashkelon, which took place early Thursday.

Mofaz instructed the air force to persist with strikes against areas in Gaza from which Qassams are launched, and ordered the IDF to act in a bid to block Palestinian access to launching pads.

The army was directed to conduct massive artillery fire at launch sites, while military aircrafts will target bridges and infrastructures.

However, the security officials currently refrain from initiating a ground operation in the Strip."

[GatoLover]

2. What is a proper Israeli response to Kassam rockets from Gaza?

Let me guess: "End the occupation!"

Too bad the Israelis actually have a right and duty to defend themselves.

[Violet_Crumble]

3. Can you explain how Israel has a right...

..to bomb Gaza with the intent of forcing civilians to flee to Egypt?

Violet...

[GatoLover]

4. I didn't defend that at all

If I had to I'd probably say: Same reason that it's OK for Palestinians to bomb cafes and discos in an attempt to frighten the Israelis into "returning to Europe".

But, of course, I don't believe that either.

[Violet_Crumble]

5. Then what do you think the proper Israeli response should be?

n/t

[Coastie for Truth]

6. I would gladly pay $6.00/gallon for gasoline

to resettle the Palestinians in the Arabian Peninsula -- and train them/educate them. Like Douglas MacArthur did to the Japanese - how to research, develop, design, manufacture "Demming" quality cars and consumer electronics and capital goods, and have mortgages and VISA/MASTER cards, and debts, and 401(k)'s, and mortgages, and kids to educate.

[Violet_Crumble]

7. So, ethnic cleansing is the solution?

Disgusting...

[Coastie for Truth]

8. No -

Creating a comfortable middle class - But the Xtian and Jewish communities have so little credibility with the Muslims that we have to out-source it to the Saudis.

Like we were able to do ourselves with the Japanese.

(And I think part of the lack of credibility is due to efforts of the Sue Blackwells and Dave Galloways of the world and their sycophants).

[Violet_Crumble]

9. "I would gladly pay.to resettle the Palestinians in the Arabian Peninsula"

That comment sure comes across as a belief that ethnic cleansing is the solution.

And why would anyone want training and education of any people outsourced to the Saudis?????

Violet...

[Coastie for Truth]

10. Read Matlins and Magida

I really don't care how Liberal and Progressive and Pro-Palestinian a Westerner (or a South Asian or East Asian) is - the Arab people have been so abused by the West (not just Zionists, but including Xtians) that I really don't think that a Westerner can be an effective mentor.

A short time ago I was involved in funding a Palestinian software company that was developing Electronic Fund Transfer software for the Bedouin market. The customs and tradition of Bedouin banking are different from those of western banking, and the differences went to the very essence of the network routing algorithms. To assume that Western EFT algorithms would work would be counter productive - and would just build walls.

And I interpret

And why would anyone want training and education of any people outsourced to the Saudis?????

as incredibly racist

If you think I believe in ethnic cleansing - ALERT.


Reference: Matlins and Magida, "How to Be a Perfect Stranger: The Essential Religious Etiquette Handbook"

[Violet_Crumble]

23. Read Flesch and Allen....

I interpret:

"I would gladly pay $6.00/gallon for gasoline to resettle the Palestinians in the Arabian Peninsula -- and train them/educate them."

as being a suggestion that ethnic cleansing is the answer to the firing of Qassams...

Or it could just be a badly constructed sentence. Here's a little exercise to work out which one it is:

My employer has suggested that next year I attend a training course in the US which will increase my skills. Which of the following sentences would be the best and clearest way to say it and which of these sentences says something completely different?

a) Next year Violet will be attending a training course in the US to increase her skills.

b) I would gladly forgo a tax cut to resettle the Australians in the United States -- and train them/educate them.

Reference: Rudolf Fleshch, "The Classic Guide to Better Writing : Step-by-Step Techniques and Exercises to Write Simply, Clearly and Correctly."

btw, have a happy holiday season!

Reference: Constance Allen, Grover's Guide to Good Manners

Violet...

[Coastie for Truth]

25. Bottom Line

My bottom line - the Palestinians are victims of Nakba. We have gone round and round as to who the victimizers are/were and degree of guilt (Zionist, Nazis, Western Powers, Saudis, Big Oil, Sir Mark Sykes, Kitchner, Chamberlin, etc.) But that is not solving a humanitarian problem of epoch proportions.

I have always favored payment of very very high reparations to Nakba victims (personally and as families -- and not to governmental "representatives" or "proxies") as consideration for giving up the "Right of Return."

I believe that the payments should definitely be high enough to get resettled in a manner befitting their station as members of the industrialized world with an ancient culture (better then we do for the New Orleans African American Nakba victims), education, education for their kids, etc.

I am not a "Punish them, screw them, throw them into the sea." type.

I am a "Pay them enough to satisfy them and make them more then whole" type - and advocate doing it within the context of their cultural and religious heritage.

I am not some Zionist version of Iran's president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad or Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood leader Muhammad Mehdi Akef -- and I do not call Nakba a myth or a triviality. Nor am I a Jabotinsky type - I'm the guy with the Red Crystal avatar who gets the cots and blankets and hot meals.

[Englander]

11. "Resettle" - is that a euphemism, like "transfer"?

Is that another way of saying ethnic cleansing, as it certainly sounds like it,
the suggestion was made in a thread about the er, "resettlement" of the population
of Gaza, it certainly sounds to me like yer suggesting that?

That's a 1st, I think, I think that's the 1st time I've seen someone suggest "transfer"
as a solution to the problem.

[Coastie for Truth]

17. No - it's like going off to Oxford or Cambridge or Semmelweiss or Flinders

for a good education, learn a profession, find a wife, father kids, and then return to Gaza ready to settle into a boring upper middle class life with a good King Fahd Univ degree.

[Englander]

18. Why not have decent unis in Gaza/WB?

Also, that's radically different to the comments in #6, there was no suggestion made
there about returning to Gaza, or, going to Oxbridge, &tc. The comments in post #6 are
competely different to this latest version of their meaning. How would this "resettling"
work, if the population doesn't want to be moved?

[Coastie for Truth]

19. Maybe Prince Talal

could endow such a world class university.

It would do much more for world peace then through another $100's of millions at Harvard.

[Englander]

20. It would.

As would not making any repugnant suggestions about "resettling" a population,
as would not making any attempts to raise the spectre of ethnic cleansing, whilst
also attempting to attach any credibility to the idea. I thought only the racist
rwers were keen on the idea of "transfer"?

[Tom Joad]

14. You are, of course, suggesting ethnic cleansing, which is a war crime

You know there can be no "resettlement" of Palestinians that is voluntary, they will not leave their homeland. Even if they are given Visa cards. You are suggesting massive forced ethnic cleansing. Please think of something ... more humane.
Like maybe people living together with justice.

[Coastie for Truth]

16. No. I am a Lib

I am suggesting 4-6 years of the finest education in the world at King Fahd University (even better then UC Berkeley) to learn a profession, run up debts, meet a wife, father some kids, and then come back to Gaza ready to lead a middle class life.

You want to tell me about war crimes and international law - at - go ahead.

[Tom Joad]

21. So you are saying that no one should be resettled against their will?

Only those who choose to leave?

Why did you link to John Yoo, knowing he wrote the pro-torture "legal" memos for the Bush administration? Are you an admirer? If so, what are you doing here?

[Coastie for Truth]

22. Answers

Question:Why did you link to John Yoo, knowing he wrote the pro-torture "legal" memos for the Bush administration? Are you an admirer? If so, what are you doing here?
Answer: No, not at all. But

1) I thought you might know him up there in Berkeley; figured you went to Boalt Hall.
2) I have mentioned Prof. Yoo in my letter to the State Bar of California, asking that "Constitutional Law" and "International Humanitarian Law" be made Mandatory Continuing Legal Education subjects in California

Question:So you are saying that no one should be resettled against their will? Only those who choose to leave?

Answer: In some states that's the way "eminent domain" works -- then they make the "award" so high (3 to 4 times "fair market value") that you're crazy not to leave.

In effect - very very high reparations for Nakba victims as consideration for giving up the "Right of Return." Definitely enough to get resettled in a manner befitting their station as members of the industrialized world with an ancient culture (better then we do for the New Orleans African American Nakba victims), education, education for their kids, etc. I am not a "Punish them, screw them, throw them into the sea." type. I am a "Pay them enough to satisfy them and make them more then whole" types.

[Violet_Crumble]

24. Right of Return and resettlement of refugees...

As this thread is discussing the situation in Gaza and Palestinians in Gaza, while very high reparations would be due to those of them who are refugees, Palestinians in Gaza would not need or want to be resettled anywhere. It's diaspora Palestinians (eg those in camps in Lebanon) who would need to be resettled, either in the new Palestinian state, a return to Israel for some, or willing resettlement in a country of their choice....

Violet...

[Coastie for Truth]

26. The Palestinians in Gaza and the WB

have suffered massive "damages" - and should be "made whole" by even more massive reparations.

I have been to the WB. The Palestinians in the WB need a massive infusion of aid.

I have not been to Gaza - but I can only assume that the situation in Gaza is even worse then the WB.

And while my bias and prejudice is that much of that aid should come from the mineral exploiters of the Bedouin proletariat and from the Saudis - that is a side issue. These peoples are victims and they need massive aid - call it reparations, gifts whatever.

[Tom Joad]

27. Good to hear you are no fan of Yoo.

Yep, i know of him. I hope most DU'ers know of him, or at least of his notorious work.
The legal beagle for the Bush administration.
Ok, that's settled.

As for this: "resettlement". First, make clear who you are talking about. Palestinians in Gaza? You think they would take a payout program? Why should the US pay for this? Isn't it wiser not to make refugees in the first place? Isn't it wiser to allow them to return to their homes?

Hasn't the world learned not to force people from their homes? Isn't "never again" for everyone?

[Coastie for Truth]

28. Who said the US should pay?

If you have followed my posts over the many threads - I have always said that those who exploited the Bedouin proletariat (the mineral exploiters and the Saudis), and those who profited by the victors' arbitrary post-WW I borders (I am referring to Sykes-Picot, and the Saudis) should compensate the victims.

All of us have gone round and round as to who the victimizers are/were and degree of guilt (Zionists, Nazis, Western Powers, Saudis, Big Oil, Sir Mark Sykes, Kitchner, Chamberlin, etc.) and I have always said the Saudis and Big Oil. But that is not solving a humanitarian problem

The Palestinians are victims of Nakba. I have never denied that. I AM NOT A NAKBA DENIER. But that is not solving a humanitarian problem of epoch proportions.

I do not deny the victimhood of the Palestinians (Gaza, WB, diaspora), nor do I advocate "driving them into the sea" -- I am not some mythical Zionist version of Iran's president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad or Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood leader Muhammad Mehdi Akef -- and I do not call Nakba a myth or a triviality. Nor am I a Jabotinsky type - I'm the guy with the Red Crystal avatar who gets the cots and blankets and hot meals. I am not a Likudnik - or a PNACer -- I even wander into Berkeley occasionally to go to Beyt Tikkun.

Query? If they return to their homes - what will happen to the present inhabitants - who were driven there - not just by the Nazis -- but by the Brits and the US and Big Oil. Should the Brits, the US, Big Oil, and the Saudis (who stoked the flames and never resettled their brothers) compensate them. I say YES.

[Tom Joad]

12. Collective punishment? Inflicted on civilians? This is terrorism.

When done by an established state, it is called "state terrorism".

The purpose of terrorism is to inflict harm onto a civilian population so that it will pressure a group to stop its behavior. This agriculture minister is advocating a war crime.
It is not self-defense.

[Englander]

13. He's gone, Tom.

Profile;
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&u_id=181896

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

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