Shin Bet: IDF did nothing to stop settlers uprooting olive trees

[Scurrilous]

<snip>

"The military and police did nothing to prevent the felling of Palestinian olive trees despite having the names of the settlers responsible, the head of the Shin Bet security service claimed Tuesday.

Yuval Diskin told the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee that the Shin Bet had handed over the names of members of the "hilltop youth" from the West Bank settlements of Yitzhar and Itamar who were involved in uprooting the olive trees, but the security forces refrained from taking any action.

According to Diskin, the Israel Defense Forces and Israel Police "are turning a blind eye, and doing nothing to deal with this phenomenon."

Diskin said the Shin Bet wanted to place the youths involved under administrative detention, but had been prevented from doing so.

"We failed in handling this matter, but others did not take action against those breaking the law," Diskin said. He did not name those he said had tied the Shin Bet's hands, but committee members later said that Diskin's comments were likely directed at the defense and public security ministries."

more

[Tom Joad]

1. Why doesn't the Israeli government stop this terrorism?

[Colorado Blue]

2. Why doesn't SOMEBODY stop the suicide bombers and the

rocket attacks and shootings?

PS: I don't think people should attack innocent trees.

[Violet_Crumble]

4. It's disgusting that settler attacks are treated like a joke...

'I don't think people should attack innocent trees.'

It's not a joke for the owners of these trees, whose livelihoods are destroyed. Stopping that destruction should be a responsibility of the Israeli govt, or do they get a free pass?

Violet...

[Jim Sagle]

5. Even more disgusting that trees are elevated above Jews.

INFINITELY more disgusting.

[Tom Joad]

6. Who said that? These trees provide income for the Palestinian community.

Therefore an attack on trees is an attack on Palestinians.

There is nothing in this thread that suggests trees are "elevated above Jews", except your post.

I would hope for suggestions as to how we can stop these attacks on Palestinians, that is facilitated with US tax money.

[Behind the Aegis]

26. hmmm...

Those Jews provide income for the Israeli community; therefore, an attack on a pizza parlor or mall is an attack on Israelis!

I would hope for suggestions as to how we can stop attacks on Israelis, that is facilitated by terrorists apologists (such as Iran).

[Wordie]

37. Do you have evidence that even one of those Pal farmers is a terrorist?

If not, why not give your comments on this issue. It appears to me that your comments are just a means of avoiding an honest look at the ugly side of Israel - the settlements and what they do to Palestinians.

Are only Israelis of worth to you?

[Behind the Aegis]

38. Do you have evidence I said one of those farmers was a terrorist?

Can you really not see the relevance? Because, if not, I will be happy to explain it to you. However, it appears to me that the lives of Israelis are not as worthy as those of trees.

Are Palestinians the only ones of worth to you?

[Wordie]

39. Is any Israeli life saved by the chopping down of an olive tree???

What is the benefit that you see? If your only comment about these sad acts is to harken back to Palestinian terrorism, it does appear that you see these two things as directly related. Do you believe these Palestinian farmers deserve to have their trees destroyed because of the violent acts of others? Doesn't that amount to collective punishment?

Why is it that you do not condemn this sort of act?

[Behind the Aegis]

40. You really need to re-read this thread.

"Is any Palestinian life saved by blowing up a mall??? What is the benefit you see?"

I fail to see where I claim the two are directly related. You made that claim and worded it to sound as if it were my assertion. Not ONE person here has said these acts were good or warranted. The "relation" here is that acts of terrorism against Palestinians are to be stopped, but acts of terrorism against Israelis seem to get a big "well, it's understandable."

So it is very clear for you, I do condemn these acts. Those trees did nothing to warrant their destruction, nor did their keepers. I will say the same of mall-dwellers.

BTW, the first two questions in this post do not warrant a response because they are as ludicrous as the ones presented to me in your post.

[Wordie]

41. In re-reading, I also notice #29, where you cast doubt on the claims about

the trees in the first place. So you see, I had plenty of reason to doubt your condemnation, don't you think?

When someone claims to condemn an act, but simultaneously casts doubt on whether the act happened, the reader of the thread is understandably confused about that person's true stand on the matter.

[Behind the Aegis]

42. Then you didn't read it correctly.

So your premise for your 'accusation' is faulty, at best.

[Wordie]

44. And post #12? Oh wait, I surely must have read that incorrectly, too. eom

[Behind the Aegis]

45. I guess you did.

So to make it easier for you:

post #12: An article written by another reporter for Ha'aretz. Notice; I made no comment in that post. The article doesn't deny that the acts took place.

post #29: I was playing off an expert making an expert opinion based on a few photos, as opposed to actually going there, similar to Frist "examining" Terri Schiavo and basing his "expert" opinion on a few pictures. So, your assertion, "I also notice #29, where you cast doubt on the claims about the trees in the first place." is simplistic, at best. I wasn't casting doubts on the claims, I was casting doubts on the "expert" opinion and how it was reached.

Do you understand now?

[Wordie]

46. I understood quite well, and am also confident that the unbiased reader

of this thread will also be able to make the call.

[Behind the Aegis]

47. Had you been one, this sub-thread most likely wouldn't be here.

[Wordie]

48. I'm giving you one last chance, bta...

...to have the last word. Go ahead, take it. LOL

[Behind the Aegis]

49. Thank you. I accept.

It is apparent you are not interested in discussion or debate, but rather more interested in trying to create a 'situation' based on inaccurate assumptions and "claims," then ending it with sarcasm and sanctimony. Talk about having "no partner." :eyes:

[Midnight Rambler]

7. Think of the symbolism of them uprooting olive trees

Think of what this particular tree represents. Aggression should be condemned from all sides no matter who commits it. Otherwise, the cycle of violence and hatred just keeps on going.

[Violet_Crumble]

11. And no-one's done that here...

What's more disgusting than anything is pretending that people have...

Violet...

[Englander]

15. That;s never happened, & you know it. n/t

[Coastie for Truth]

8. Why doesn't the PA stop the missile attacks and suicide bombings

And to equate human being - any human being - even Zionist to trees is beyond insulting and beyond racist.

[Tom Joad]

9. Again, that was not the meaning of the posts.

Attacking a people's livelihood is an attack on people. As the original post said, these trees are not mere ornaments, they are precious, and provide income. There are plenty of instances of settlers attacking those that tend the trees (or Palestinians in general), so this is part of a very direct attack on people.


Our question is this: Why can't the "only democracy in the Middle East", with a well-established and well-trained and very powerful army, not stop these attacks that are being done by Jewish Settlers, a fact that has been established by its own security service?

Is it because the IDF does not want to?
Is it because IDF cannot stop the violence of its own people?
Another reason?

Provide some explanation or provide some solution, but do not twist the meaning of the posts and declare racism where it does not exist.

The Human Rights Watch report cited below suggests that Israeli military promotes impunity, and that this is systematic.

[Violet_Crumble]

14. No-one here's done that...

And the post yr replying to didn't even come anywhere close to saying that. Just curious, but can you explain with any sort of clarity how you managed to read something that most definately wasn't there into the post you replied to?

Violet...

[Coastie for Truth]

32. Have a cookie on me

<>

[Violet_Crumble]

43. Thanks for the explanation...

..that there was nothing remotely racist etc in Tom's post :)

Violet....

[Englander]

22. That doesn't even make any sense.

Never mind that the alleged equating has never actually occured, but what
does "beyond racist" even mean?

[Behind the Aegis]

23. Move past that....

Answer: "Why doesn't the PA stop the missile attacks and suicide bombings?"

I am guessing you expect that the IDF to do something to stop settlers uprooting olive trees. :)

:hi:

[Coastie for Truth]

31. Have a cookie on me

<>

[Behind the Aegis]

12. Yesha: Some of the trees felled by Palestinians

The Yesha Council of settlements reiterated its contention that in at least some of the cases where olive trees have been cut down, the perpetrators are Arabs and left-wing activists. Left-wing organizations were taking advantage of planned pruning of trees to slander the settlers, the Yesha Council also said yesterday.

A few days ago, the secretariat of the settlement of Maon in the southern West Bank harshly condemned the cutting down of trees. "As settlers and farmers," the statement said, "our way is not to destroy and uproot but to build and plant."

Yesha Council spokeswoman Emily Ambrusi said pictures from the groves clearly showed the trees had been pruned, which farmers told the Yesha Council is done every few years to improve the trees. "These actions are carried out in a relatively dry year," Ambrusi added.

Yesha Council chairman Bentzi Lieberman demanded a few weeks ago that the Israel Defense Forces and the police thoroughly investigate the uprooting of trees in the village of Salem, in order to "identify the real perpetrators." Leiberman said at the time that in the village of Salem and in another incident, "there are certainly many questions at the scene that suggest a suspicion of Palestinian provocation."

more...

[Scurrilous]

20. "I cannot tell a lie....

...'twas the leftists who cut down those olive trees."

[Behind the Aegis]

21. I am sure no lie is told on your part...

...'twas only those horrible settlers who did it. Oh wait, we know they did and any report otherwise, must be a lie! The fact that others may have been involved is simply propaganda.

[Scurrilous]

25. Both the Shin Bet...

...and Attorney General Menachem Mazuz blame the settlers for these acts. The Shin Bet even claims to know the names of the settlers involved.

Case closed. :thumbsup:

[Behind the Aegis]

27. Please...don't spare us the suspense...

..provide a link!

BTW...there is more info coming out...not all of it may have been those nasty settlers. OH WAIT...conspircacy theories only work when in your favor.

[Scurrilous]

34. OP and post #17. n/t

[Wordie]

3. HRW on how Israeli military encourages settler harm to Palestinians:

Israel: Failure to Probe Civilian Casualties Fuels Impunity

(Jerusalem, June 22, 2005) — The Israeli military has fostered a climate of impunity in its ranks by failing to thoroughly investigate whether soldiers have killed and injured Palestinian civilians unlawfully or failed to protect them from harm, Human Rights Watch said in a report released today.
Most of Israel’s investigations of civilian casualties have been a sham. The government’s failure to investigate the deaths of innocent civilians has created an atmosphere that encourages soldiers to think they can literally get away with murder.

Since the current Palestinian uprising began in 2000, Israeli forces have killed or seriously injured thousands of Palestinians who were not taking part in the hostilities. However, the Israeli authorities have investigated fewer than five percent of the fatal incidents to determine whether soldiers were responsible for using force unlawfully. The investigations they did conduct fell far short of international standards for independent and impartial inquiries.

The 126-page report, “Promoting Impunity: The Israeli Military’s Failure to Investigate Wrongdoing,” documents how Israel has failed in its legal obligation to investigate civilian deaths and injuries that result from the use of lethal force in policing and law enforcement contexts, such as controlling demonstrations or enforcing curfews, and in combat situations when there is prima facie evidence or credible allegations that soldiers deliberately harmed civilians or failed to take all feasible precautions to protect them from harm.

The report examines in detail more than a dozen cases of civilian deaths and serious injury caused to Palestinians and foreigners by Israel Defense Forces in the Occupied Palestinian Territories, most of which clearly occurred in law enforcement rather than armed conflict situations.

“Most of Israel’s investigations of civilian casualties have been a sham,” said Sarah Leah Whitson, Middle East director at Human Rights Watch. “The government’s failure to investigate the deaths of innocent civilians has created an atmosphere that encourages soldiers to think they can literally get away with murder.”

In its most recent communication to Human Rights Watch on the subject, in May 2004, the Israel Defense Forces said they had conducted Military Police investigations into 74 alleged cases of unlawful use of lethal force, fewer than five percent of the civilian deaths recorded at the time.

As of May 22, the Israeli military had initiated 108 investigations resulting in 19 indictments and six convictions, according to Israeli human rights organizations. Two soldiers were convicted for manslaughter, two for causing grave harm, and 2 for illegal use of a weapon.

The longest prison sentence in these cases, handed down on May 18 for causing grave harm, was for 20 months. However, most of the convictions have drawn penalties less severe than those handed down for petty theft or to conscientious objectors.

In the earlier Palestinian uprising of 1988-93, Israel’s policy was to open investigations in all civilian deaths and injuries. The quality of those investigations also was often poor, however.

Following the outbreak of clashes in September 2000, the Israeli military said it would no longer routinely investigate civilian deaths because the situation was “approaching armed conflict,” and that investigations would be limited to “exceptional cases.”

However, even in armed conflict situations, military authorities must investigate credible allegations or prima facie evidence of serious violations of international humanitarian law, Human Rights Watch said, and many of the deaths and injuries occurred in situations that clearly did not amount to armed conflict but were situations of law enforcement.

“Even when Israeli soldiers have killed and maimed civilians in law enforcement situations, the military has failed to meet its obligation to investigate,” Whitson said.

Human Rights Watch said that the heart of the problem was a military justice system that relies on the debriefing of soldiers—often misleadingly called “operational investigations”—to determine whether a Military Police investigation is warranted. These “investigations” do not seek or consider testimony from victims or non-military witnesses, and do not attempt to reconcile discrepancies between soldiers’ accounts and video, medical or eyewitness evidence.

“While rapid ‘operational investigations’ may serve a useful military purpose, the Israeli military should stop using them as a pretext to avoid serious and impartial inquiries,” said Whitson.

Under international humanitarian law, or the laws of war, armies are obliged to investigate, prosecute and appropriately punish those responsible for serious violations of the law. Israel’s duty to investigate wrongdoing is reinforced by international human rights treaties that the government has ratified.

These obligations include the duty to investigate serious abuses and provide an effective remedy by bringing perpetrators to justice, providing fair and adequate compensation to victims and their relatives, and establishing the truth about what happened.

“The Israeli army should investigate allegations of wrongdoing out of self-interest as well,” said Whitson. “Holding soldiers accountable upholds the integrity of the armed forces.”

Human Rights Watch called on the Israeli government to monitor civilian casualties throughout the occupied Palestinian territories and make such information publicly available. The Israeli military should end the practice of using “operational investigations” to determine whether to open a criminal investigation into possible unlawful use of force, and set up an independent body to receive and investigate complaints of serious human rights abuses by Israeli soldiers and other security forces.

"Promoting Impunity: The Israeli Military’s Failure to Investigate Wrongdoing" will be available at:

http://hrw.org/reports/2005/iopt0605/

Related reports:

Israel: Reject Plan to Demolish Gaza Homes
Press Release, January 23, 2005

'Disengagement' Will Change Little for Gaza
Commentary, November 2, 2004

Egypt/Israel: Attacks on Civilians Are Unjustifiable Crimes
Press Release, October 12, 2004

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/06/22/isrlpa11148.htm

[Tom Joad]

10. Thanks for the report. This is needed info.

We should do all in our power to make sure this info is widely known, and that the Israeli government takes necessary action to stop the attacks.

[pelsar]

13. just for the record...

the reason the soldiers dont get involved or at least avoid it, is because the settlers take advantage of the demoracy. If a soldier, especially a reserve one, trys to stop them, they've been known to sue the soldiers.

no soldier needs/wants that..hence many just "turn a blnd eye"...so too with much of the police. The settlers have a well oiled machine for taking advantage of the laws of israel to their advantage.

to further the info of why..is simply because the palestenain society is seen as an 'enemy society", why would a soldier risk his livilyhood? ....something further engrained by the missles flying into israel daily from gaza.

[Violet_Crumble]

16. What's yr solution, pelsar?

What should be done in order to stop the settlers destroying the livelihoods of Palestinians? I want solutions, not excuses...

Violet...

[pelsar]

18. arrest....

throw in jail, make them replant new trees, pay reparations etc

citizens of israel are destroying property that doesnt belong to them...its black and white....

inorder to do so, there should be some modifications in the law that protects the soldiers/policeman from ligation of this sort.... no exscuses are necessary when the state is not doing its job.

you see its not hard to look at a situation, look at the options and come up with a solution. Where or not the state will implement it now, is another question, but it doesnt excuse it...but at least its now on the table.

just apply the same attitude toward all the problems....real solutions (though this one is relativly easy)

[tinnypriv]

19. Or there's a more basic problem

If you call the place Judea and Samaria, and essentially declare it part of medinat yisrael for 30 odd years, why is anyone surprised that the hilltop youth consider these trees and this land to be theirs? Hell, plently of IDF soldiers think some parts of the WB are Israel, even ones in the heart of Palestinian territory. Like Ari'el (which is called "part of Israel" by the whole mainstream in Israel).

p.s. residents of Itamar are "citizens of Israel destroying property", but they aren't in Israel. Big problem. A lot of these activities come about because of this mindset which fails to recognise their colonial presense.

[eyl]

30. Chuck them in jail

(I should note that I'm not sure if the IDF can legally arrest settlers if they don't catch them in the act, but the police certainly can)

[tinnypriv]

36. The police

Very often don't even go into the "nationalist" settlements. Like Itamar, Tapuah, Karnie Shomron etc. At least not without army backup, and even they don't like it - one bunch of kahanist thugs run members of the gss jewish division out of a settlement once (probably one of many examples).

Why would they anyway? The army explicity supports the settlements and refuses to even implement the orders of the civilian administration in the territories.

[Scurrilous]

17. Mazuz: Jewish lawlessness unpunished

Attorney general says resources must be allocated to tackle uprooting of Palestinian trees

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3197149,00.html

<snip>

"Some 2,400 olive trees have been uprooted in Palestinian orchards recently, Attorney General Menachem Mazuz said at a cabinet meeting Sunday, charging that authorities are failing to tackle Jewish lawlessness in the West Bank.

This is a severe phenomenon, which gives a sense of anarchy, and the impression that violence goes unpunished, Mazuz told government members.

"The uprooting of trees represents part of a wider phenomenon – the lack of proper law enforcement when it comes to Jews in Judea and Samaria," he added."

<snip>

"Notably, a decision on petition submitted in 2004 by the Association for Civil Right in Israel and the Rabbis for Human Rights organization to the High Court regarding "the government's and the IDF's failure to protect the Palestinian farmers," is still pending.

The organizations demanded that the court order Israel to protect the Palestinian farmer and requested that the State operate to end settler harassment."

[Behind the Aegis]

24. Gaza's spiral into anarchy

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=110252&mesg_id=110252

[Englander]

28. Experts: Palestinian trees were vandalized, not pruned

By Amira Hass

Palestinian olive trees in the West Bank are clearly being vandalized rather than pruned, two experts said yesterday.

They were responding to the Yesha Council of settlements' contention that Palestinians sometimes label pruned trees as having been vandalized in order to smear the settlers, who are believed responsible for the vandalism.

Professor Shimon Lavee, an expert in olive tree cultivation from the Hebrew University's agriculture department, refuted this claim after examining photographs of trees taken by the B'Tselem organization in Salem, near Nablus, and Tawana, south of Mount Hebron. According to B'Tselem spokeswoman Sarit Michaeli, Lavee said that trees as young as the ones in the photographs would not normally be pruned, and they had therefore evidently been vandalized. He also said that the damaged trees would take eight to 12 years to recover fully and produce as much fruit as they had before.

Yoel Marshak, a veteran member of the kibbutz movement who has been trying to protect Palestinian harvesters from settler attacks, issued the same verdict yesterday after examining 50 trees near Burin that were vandalized earlier this week. Marshak has considerable experience in this matter, having spent six years in charge of his kibbutz's plant nurseries.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/668683.html

[Behind the Aegis]

29. Photos!

"Professor Shimon Lavee, an expert in olive tree cultivation from the Hebrew University's agriculture department, refuted this claim after examining photographs of trees taken by the B'Tselem organization in Salem,..."

I am not up on current Hebrew slang, but is "Lavee" the same as "Frist?" You know, experts you can discern the "real" deal?

[eyl]

33. Many olive tree vandals still at large

With the different law enforcement agencies stepping up their involvement to combat the uprooting and destruction of Palestinian olive trees, security officials believe it will only be a matter of time before additional perpetrators are caught and brought to justice.

<snip>

Maj.-Gen. Yosef Mishlev, the Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories, who has been monitoring the situation for some time, was deeply dissatisfied with Judea and Samaria Police, who failed to act in an efficient manner to nab those involved, the sources said. Mishlev warned the security establishment that failure to address the situation could lead to bloodshed. "It starts with olive trees and could end with people losing their lives," one of them added.

Seeking to find a more efficient way in which various enforcement agencies could pool their resources and deal with the situation, Mishlev raised the issue with Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz two weeks ago.

In response, the defense minister appointed Mishlev to head an investigating committee, the sources said. Now, aside from the local district coordinating offices who continue to monitor the situation, IDF troops will become more actively involved as well as the Israel Police International and Serious Crimes Unit and the Shin Bet (Israel Security Agency), the sources said. "Hopefully by pooling the resources and utilizing the experience each separate agency brings, the results will be more successful," one of them added.

Last Wednesday, Mishlev met with 20 Palestinian landowners from the Nablus area, one of the most hard-hit regions. After hearing details from the farmers, Mishlev toured the area to inspect the different plots.

According to one of the sources, after hearing the Palestinian farmers it became apparent that not only were trees destroyed, but animals belonging to the farmers were also harmed as were agricultural plots and in some cases there was physical violence.

More

[Englander]

35. Rolling their eyes

By Haaretz Editorial

It is difficult to know what eventually led the government to discuss the chopping down of Palestinian olive trees by thugs from the settlements. Perhaps it was the media coverage, or the change of guard at the head of the cabinet table. Or maybe it was the complaints filed by the Yesh Din human rights organization on behalf of the Palestinian victims that ended up on the table of the attorney general, or the fact that the chopping down of olive trees - as opposed to other injustices done in the territories - is perceived by the public as an absolute evil, without extenuating circumstances.

On Sunday, Acting Prime Minister Ehud Olmert condemned the action, but added that he was "not familiar with its origins." But on Tuesday, the head of the Shin Bet security service revealed that his organization had handed over a list of tree-choppers from among the settlers to the army and police. However, these two entities were "rolling their eyes" and not doing anything about it.

The chopping down of olive trees by state representatives, just like the appropriation of private agricultural land and the exploitation of every inch of non-private ground for the purpose of expanding the settlements, is a routine matter in the territories. The difference between the injustice caused by the state authorities and the damage done independently by groups of settlers lies in the fact that the latter is an indication of the depth of anarchy and abandonment that characterizes the way of life of the settlers in the territories.

For years, the state has allowed Jewish thugs to mistreat their Palestinian neighbors undisturbed, while investing much effort in undermining and preventing Palestinian attacks on Jews. In most instances in which a settler is caught vandalizing Palestinian property or physically harming a Palestinian, he is released from custody almost immediately, his personal weapon is returned to him, and he goes back to being a threat to his neighbors and proof that filing a police complaint does not pay. And it is not just a matter of the chopping down of trees, but also the vandalizing of property, disturbing farmers who are trying to work their land, and setting fire to agricultural plots, as well as physical attacks.

Settlers have chopped down thousands of olive trees - more than 2,000 according to the defense minister's count - since April, and all the Yesha Council had to say about it was that it could be provocation. A response such as this from an institutionalized settler body is an indication that these are not the actions of a group of renegades or loose cannons, but ideological vandalism backed by the settlers and the authorities. The awakening of the government and attorney general, who said the Palestinian victims should receive compensation, is late and unconvincing. It is difficult to believe that such talk will lead to indictments.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/669210.html