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LiberalUprising Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 06:55 PM
Original message
Where is the global outcry at this continuing cruelty?


Nearly 60 years after most Palestinians were first forced from our homes, the killings and blockades carry on with impunity

Ghada Karmi
Monday May 15, 2006
The Guardian

Israel is 58 years old today. Israelis have already celebrated with barbecues and parties. And so they should, for they've pulled off an amazing stunt: the creation of a state for one people on the land of another - and at their massive expense - without incurring effective sanction. Some of those not celebrating, the Arab citizens of Israel, were also there, demonstrating to remind the world that Israel displaced 250,000 to take their land without compensation. Millions more Palestinians will demonstrate today in the refugee camps of Gaza, the West Bank and neighbouring Arab states against their expulsion by Israel. The world, however, is not listening, any more than it did in 1948, when most of Palestine's inhabitants were expelled to make way for Jewish immigrants.

My family was among those displaced and, though a child, I vividly remember the panic and misery of that flight from our home in Jerusalem on an April morning in 1948, with the scent of spring in the air. Palestine by then had become a raging battleground as Jews fought to seize our land in the wake of the 1947 UN partition resolution. My parents decided to evacuate us temporarily. "We will return," they insisted, "the world will not let such injustice happen!" They were wrong: the world let it happen and we never returned. Little comfort in knowing that we were among many others, that we did not end up in tents, that conflicts do such things. Our lives, our history and our future had been traduced. In those early days, I would wonder with anguish how the Jewish incomers who took over our house could sleep at night, seeing our belongings, family photos, children's toys. Subsequently, Israelis made much of the danger they faced from five Arab armies in the 1948-49 war, but in reality their forces were greater than all their opponents' combined, and the latter ill equipped and poorly trained.

Growing up in Britain, I got no sympathy but rather kept being told about the need to give Jews a state they could feel safe in ....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,1774886,00.html


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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
1. dumb dumb and dumber....
Edited on Wed May-24-06 09:59 PM by pelsar
Subsequently, Israelis made much of the danger they faced from five Arab armies in the 1948-49 war, but in reality their forces were greater than all their opponents' combined, and the latter ill equipped and poorly trained.

maybe then the arab armies shouldnt have declared their aim and not attack?...or maybe they didnt go to war to lose and figured that they would succeed and "get rid of the jews"?

or maybe for some of the arabs in haifa and other areas where they actually had choices they shouldnt have left?....even though the fighting was over and the israelis asked them to stay?

____________________________
Palestenian Post:
4/25/48

To leave Haifa or not is the question which has been concerning the local Arab leaders here since the Haganah defeated the Arab bands on Wednesday night.

Quite a lot of arabs i saw yesterday want to stay.....They were told by the jewish leaders that those who chose to remain would be helped in every possible way to return to normal life....

http://jic.tau.ac.il/Default/Layout/Includes/PalestineP/ArtWin.asp?From=Search&Key=Palestine%2F1948%2F04%2F25%2F1%2FAr00103%2Exml&CollName=PPOST%5FNew&DOCID=755071&Keyword=%28%3Cmany%3E%3Cstem%3Erefugee%3Cand%3E%3Cmany%3E%3Cstem%3Earab%29&skin=PalestineP&AppName=2&ViewMode=HTML&GZ=T


http://jic.tau.ac.il/moreshet/palestineEn.html
_____________________________

thats why there is no "global outcry"......
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-25-06 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. The myth goes that Arab leaders told the people to leave,
but a study of radio broadcasts at the time shows just the opposite. They were encouraged by leaders to stay.

Terror by a surperior army is a very convincing motivater, and that is why Palestinians left. over 700,000 were forced out.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-25-06 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. palestenian post?
newspaper of the day?....seems like a solid resource...or is it being ignored since it shows examples that some of the arabs left AFTER the fighting had ended...theres a whole archive with lots and lots of examples

kind of ruins the simplistic "evil jews made us leave" narration..of course one can pretend that the palestenian post didnt really exist, wrote fiction..if that suits ones belief....

but then....that just "belief"...always stronger than facts...always....
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-25-06 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Why do you use such offensive language?
"evil jews". That's disgusting. Not even going to reply to this.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-25-06 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. offensive language?
Edited on Thu May-25-06 05:06 PM by pelsar
is that like redefining words....pretending throwing rocks is "non violent"....perhaps you should try that in your home town..and report back to us what the judge says.

but back to the subject:
according to the Palestinian post...the description of the "day" was "jews and arabs"..and since your claiming that 700,000 arabs were pushed out of their homes by the "jews"....well it seems that "evil" fits your desription...we could use "ruthless" as you've already used that to describe jewish israeli politicians..but i'm open for suggestions:

how would you describe the "jews" of 48......and the vernacular of the day was "jews".......
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-25-06 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. The term "Jews" i have no problem with.
Edited on Thu May-25-06 06:45 PM by Tom Joad
Its just when anyone puts a derogatory adjective along with it, or doing that along with any ethnic, national group. Obviously, you were meaning to attribute that to other posters. Still, not comfortable going there at all.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-25-06 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. terror?.....
Terror by a surperior army is a very convincing motivater, and that is why Palestinians left. over 700,000 were forced out.
________________________
quite the generalization there....and i would say that your quite comfortable going there: calling the israeli army a "terror" organization....
and forcing out 700,000

pretty odd since two posts up theres an article from the palestenian post that is about arabs in haifa not only leaving of their own free will but against the wishes of the jews...but i guess its best to ignore it......it ruins a good fantasy of the terrorist IDF kicking out all 700,000
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-25-06 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Can you give me more info about the
"Palestinian Post". An English paper, i somehow doubt it was well-read among Palestinians. One newspaper article, even if authentic, proves nothing.

If they so wanted Palestinians not to leave, why were they not accepted back in 1948, after the war? Instead, most Palestinian villages were completly destroyed, or houses were taken by Jewish victors.

In any case, you are contradicting not only the scholarship of Palestinians who said that the refugee crises was caused mainly by the concerted efforts of zionist military forces, but also the scholarship of people like Benny Morris.

'Course Benny says that what was most regrettable about pushing out 700,000 Palestinians is that so many were still left in Israel.

As for the Israeli forces using terror tactics, it is nothing unique. The US has used terror tactics in Vietnam, and is now using them in Iraq. It does not mean, however, that all people in the US are evil.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-26-06 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. I'm far more accuate that you are.....
The refugee crises was caused by many factors:

some via the israelis that flattened arab villages that were in areas that the "state deemed important"..some by palestenains who left, before, during an after the fighting

other areas deals were made with arab villages, where they were kept out of the fighting and hence nothing happended to them.

others like in Haifa, some stayed..kept their homes etc (as is evident from haifas population) and others left.
______

why were they not accepted back?....in case you didnt notice, the war is not over...israel is still fighting its independance war, just in a different fashion.....

The Palestenian post has thousands of articles (so the one article "even if authentic proves nothing"!)...

no, it proves two things: one that arabs left haifa of their own free will, and its shows a closed mind
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Spinoza Donating Member (766 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-26-06 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Too much nuance here,
Pelsar. Not enough black and white. Bad. Double plus ungood.
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Spinoza Donating Member (766 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-25-06 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
5. Totally and blatantly biased.
To focus on just one of the numerous misstatements, errors. and outright lies consider:
"Subsequently, Israelis made much of the danger they faced from five Arab armies in the 1948-49 war, but in reality their forces were greater than all their opponents' combined, and the latter ill equipped and poorly trained."

What are the facts?
Look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War#Initial_balance_of_forces
Section 3, 'Initial Balance of Forces'.

1) Israel had a total strength estimated at 35,000 men and very limited equipment with no heavy weapons.

>snip "Yishuv forces
In November 1947, the Haganah was an underground paramilitary force that had existed as a highly organised, national force since the riots of 1920-21, riots of 1929 (also known as the Hebron Massacre), and Great Uprising of 1936-39<28> It had a mobile force, the HISH, which had 2,000 full time fighters (men and women) and 10,000 reservists (all aged between 18 and 25) and an elite unit, the Palmach composed of 2,100 fighters and 1,000 reservists. The reservists trained 3-4 days a month and went back to civilian life the rest of the time. These mobile forces could rely on a garrison force, the HIM (Heil Mishmar, or guard force), composed of people aged more than 25. The Yishuv's total strength was around 35,000 with 15,000 to 18,000 fighters and a garrison force of roughly 20,000.<29> The two clandestine groups Irgun and Lehi had respectively 2000-4000 and 500-800 members. There were also several thousand men and women who had served in the British Army in World War II who did not serve in any of the underground militias but would provide valuable military experience during the war.<30>

Few of the units had been trained by December 1947.<31>

In 1946 Ben-Gurion decided that the Yishuv would probably have to defend itself against both the Palestinian Arabs and neighbouring Arab states and accordingly began a "massive, covert arms acquisition campaign in the West". By September 1947 the Haganah had "10,489 rifles, 702 light machine-guns, 2,666 submachine guns, 186 medium machine-guns, 672 two-inch mortars and 92 three-inch mortars" and acquired many more during the first few months of hostilities. The Yishuv also had "a relatively advanced arms producing capacity," that between October 1947 and July 1948 "produced 3 million 9mm bullets, 150,000 mills grenades, 16,000 submachine guns (Sten Guns) and 210 three-inch mortars".<32> Still, however, before the arrival of arms shipments from Czechoslovakia as part of Operation Balak, there was roughly one weapon for every three fighters and even the Palmach armed only two out of every three of its active members. Initially, the Haganah had no heavy machine guns, artillery, armoured vehicles, anti-tank or anti-aircraft weapons.<33> <snip"

2) Showing only forces actually committed to combat in Palestine, not their total armed forces:
Transjordan: 8,000-12,000
Iraq: 15,000-18,000
Egypt: 40,000
Syria: 12,000
Lebanon: 1,000
Saudi Arabia: 800-1200

Total: 76,800-84,200
As indicated on the Wikipedia source site the combined Arab military heavy equipment including planes, artillery, armoured vehicles, heavy machine guns also dwarfed the Yishuv forces which at the beginning of the war were non-existent. In particular the Jordanian military was fully equipped and combat capable by modern standards and trained and led by British officers.

Israel lost 6,373 killed in action in the 48-49 War of Independence, an incredible 1% of their entire population of (estimated) 650,000. This is equivalent to the U.S. losing about 2.9 MILLION PEOPLE IN A WAR. (Total U.S. KIA in WWII were 440,000).

It is apparently very difficult for many people to accept that Israel's 650,000 Jews in 1948 could defeat 6 Arab countries with a combined population in excess of 40 million. The fact that Israel lost nearly 1% of their total population in doing so is ignored or belittled. The statement that the Yishuv's armies were "greater than all their opponents' combined" is not just false but in Orwellian fashion the exact opposite of the truth. Apparenly, even the once commonplace notion that
the Palestinian Jews in 1948 fought bravely against great odds, and suffered terrible losses, must now be denied the pariah state called Israel.


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