MK Lieberman calls for Israel to kidnap Palestinian PM Haniyeh

[Poll_Blind]

From Ha'Aretz, emphasis mine:

Yisrael Beiteinu Chairman MK Avigdor Lieberman called Monday for a massive military retaliation for the previous day's Kerem Shalom attack and said Palestinian Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh of Hamas should be kidnapped by the army and hustled across the border into Israel.

Speaking to Army Radio, the far right-wing MK also called for the dismissal of Defense Minister Amir Peretz whom, he said, is managing a "spineless" course of action.

"We need to tell Haniyeh and the Hamas leaders that after a Qassam rocket barrage on Sderot, we will turn their homes into soccer fields. We won't harm innocent people but will give them half an hour to leave ," Lieberman said.
--snip--

  Conservative politicians = idiotic suggestions.

PB

[Scorpio2000]

1. Wake up call for Haniyeh

They could always detain his siters, who live fat and sassy IN ISRAEL!
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3242988,00.html

Or
Haniyeh's daughter detained in Israel



Palestinian prime minister's daughter attempts to enter Eshel Prison in southern city of Be'er Sheva in order to meet with fiancé
Efrat Weiss


The daughter of Palestinian Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh attempted to enter the Eshel Prison in the south using the identity card of another woman in a bid to meet her fiancé who is a prisoner there.



Haola Haniyeh was arrested and taken into interrogation, and it is believed a criminal file will be opened against her due to the use
of a false identity. She was later released and transferred to the Erez Crossing, from where she was to be taken to the Palestinian Authority.


In the afternoon hours, Ismail Haniyeh's 18-year-old daughter arrived on a bus carrying family members of prisoners to the jail in Be'er Sheva. Palestinians say she arrived at the prison to visit her fiancé who is also relative, Abd Haniyeh,, a Hamas member who is serving a 15-year sentence for attempted murder...
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3256551,00.html

[Poll_Blind]

2. Why do you believe that kidnapping an innocent is acceptable behavior?

PB

[Scorpio2000]

4. Nope

Just saying Haniyeh needs to tread lightly

[cali]

5. WTF?

His sisters are CITIZENS of Israel. Advocating the persecution or punishment of innocent civilians is reprehensible, as is your characterizatin of them in your post. Yuck.

[Scorpio2000]

7. Hostage taking is reprehensible

Of course I'm not advocating such action.
But, playing by Hamas rules, they'd make some great bargaining chips.

[MrPrax]

10. If true...

Then the 'Hamas rules' suggest that 'identifiable military targets' are fair game, not politicians or they're relatives -- but then again the racists are always making up rules and laws and history to disguise their repellent behaviour, don't they?

[Scorpio2000]

12. Hamas Charter

"Hamas Rules" refers to the Hamas Charter which calls for the destruction of Israel. It's not the Geneva Convention.

Now, if we're talking "Hama Rules" that's a different story entirely.
http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html

[MrPrax]

14. You brought it up...

both 'Hamas rules' and 'Geneva Convention' (in another reply). You make no more sense than Israel's actions...

That's why the only supporters Israel have anymore are hard-core Zionists and a few newspaper editors--nobody is buying this shit, buddy anymore than they are buying shameless desparate propaganda like Palestinian children blowing themselves up...

How do you live with yourself, brother?

[cali]

18. What do you mean by support?

I support Israel's right to exist within the '67 borders or within negotiated borders. I have no use for people who paint one side or the other as either purely good and victims, or purely evil and oppressors or terrorists. I'm neither a hard core zionist or a newspaper editor.

[MrPrax]

23. Oops...

You replied under your 'other' nick -- or didn't you notice?

[cali]

24. I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

Do enlighten me.

[Scorpio2000]

25. You're mistaken, but that's OK

Cali and me are not one in the same. For starters, I don't think that the '67 borders are borders at all, and that they are not acceptable borders as an end to negotiation.

I do however believe in a negotiated settlement, which would put me in the camp with Abu Mazen and a two state solution.
Two states living side by side in peace.

[cali]

27. How about responding

to my post and explaining your cryptic remark?

[MrPrax]

32. Respond to what...

I wasn't even going to repond the first time, until I noticed that the 78-post troller that was advocating state terror, some weirdness about Geneva Conventions, rules, w.h.y. works...then all of a sudden I notice--oh it's the same script from another poster who writes,

"I support Israel's right to exist within the '67 borders or within negotiated borders. I have no use for people who paint one side or the other as either purely good and victims, or purely evil and oppressors or terrorists. I'm neither a hard core zionist or a newspaper editor.

I count 3 'I's in your response--what is a person suppose to think?

[Scorpio2000]

33. 78-post Troller

Have you figured out what the Hamas Charter is (and states) and what the difference between that document and the Geneva Convention is?

[cali]

34. LOL

I suggest you check your real paranoia at the virtual door. Three 'I"s- gasp. That's just shocking.

[mike_c]

3. calls for collective punishment are nothing new in Israel....

Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Conventions on the treatment of civilians under occupation specifically forbids collective punishment and makes it a war crime. Israel, on the other hand, engages in collective reprisals routinely.

[Scorpio2000]

6. Acts of war

Gaza is no longer under Occupation.
They're engaging in acts of war ACCORDING TO THE GENEVA CONVENTION

[mike_c]

8. so you endorse collective punishment of civilians...?

:shrug:

on edit: do you mind telling us whether you are Israeli yourself? That would explain a lot, I think.

[Scorpio2000]

9. Didn't say that.

War sucks.
I said that Gaza is under control of Hamas, and they continue to attack Israel. Gaza is not occupied, so, their actions constitute an act of war.
Perhaps there are different rules in play. When is it proper to invoke the Geneva Convention?

[mike_c]

13. when is it proper to engage in collective reprisals...?

The Geneva Convention need not be invoked at all, if you prefer. Does that make collective reprisals more savory? Lets say for the sake of argument that Palestinian fighters are engaging in attacks against Israel-- that is certainly true. Does that justify the use of collective reprisals, or as you tangentially endorsed up-thread, hostage taking?

You keep backpedaling and saying "I didn't say that" after you make statements that strongly imply support for acts that most would agree are war crimes.

Will you make youself clear? How about if you join me now in condemning Israel for collective reprisals against civilians not themselves accused of any crime? That would make your position much less ambiguous.

[Scorpio2000]

17. Of course I don't support war crimes

All modern wars constitute collective reprisals.

Look at the carnage of WWII. Were the Allied forces justified when they carpet bombed Germany? Was there a negotiable solution? Was Germany justified when they firebombed London?

Is not firing kassams and katyushas collective punishment?

It's one thing to target a military objective, as was done over the weekend by the Gazans. Kudos for actually attacking a military outpost instead of attacking civilians. This attack came ONE DAY after Abbas clearly stated that they would only attack targets within occupied territory.

The problem is, nobody seems to be in charge, and they all have their fingers on the trigger.

[mike_c]

21. what do you mean "nobody seems to be in charge?"

Olmert is quite firmly in charge as long as his government holds, and the OP refers to calls for hostage taking and collective reprisals from within the Knesset. The IDF operates under a military chain of command, not anarchy. They kill Palestinians because they are ordered to, not because they're rioting out of control.

Social order is a bit harder to come by on the Palestian side, certainly. I don't find that very surprising under the circumstances, do you? Would you have expected central authority to spring spontaneously from the ashes of occupation left behind by Israel? There is no recent historical framework for such a central authority at all-- not since before the british mandate days-- so it's not at all surprising. Isreal works for continued destabilization, as well, further exacerbating the problem and giving the lie to any assertion that they desire peace.

[Scorpio2000]

22. I mean just that.

Hamas was elected. It doesn't recognize Israel. Abbas is in office and he does recognize Israel and the agreements made prior to the ascension of Hamas.
The Islamic Jihad doesn't apparently listen to either Hamas or Abbas. Neither does the PFLP or other armed groups in Gaza.

By the way, the Hamas Charter does not call for peace:

http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html
Article Thirteen: Peaceful Solutions, Initiatives and International Conferences
initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement.

[Englander]

37. Gaza = OPT.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=127191#127326

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=128735#128757

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=128601#128763

[Poll_Blind]

11. Sir, I have suffered through many of your posts and somehow the...

...ideas you espouse are getting even more extreme. Unbearably so. Typically, people enter into this forum and over the course of weeks or months or in some cases years temper their strong opinions with countless interactions with persons of a different, sometimes wildly-different, point of view.

  In the short time that you have been here you have proposed some outrageous things but this takes the cake in a long line of posts which seems more more extreme than the last. I can only imagine what sorts of ideas you will be willing to state publicly even a month from now when you feel relaxed enough to tell us what you really think should be done.

  And please don't, out of one corner of your mouth, suggest multiple innocent targets who could be kidnapped and out of the other bring up the Geneva Convention(s).

PB

[Scorpio2000]

15. No such suggestion

"And please don't, out of one corner of your mouth, suggest multiple innocent targets who could be kidnapped and out of the other bring up the Geneva Convention(s)."

The point is, Haniyeh's sister are safe, BECAUSE they live in Israel. They are protected as citizens of Israel.

Why aren't the rules applied equitably? Why is the Geneva Convention only invoked AGAINST Israel, and never brought up regarding the opposition?

[mike_c]

16. well, for starters because Israel is the controlling power...

...and the Fourth Geneva Conventions are primarily intended to protect the controlled from the controlling forces, especially civilians, soldiers hors de combat, and infrastructure and institutions necessary to maintain civilian society. Israel's violations of the Fourth Geneva Protocol are far more egregious than those of Palestinians, IMO-- HOWEVER, you will find that many of us decry unnecessary violence no matter what side it occurs on.

I suspect you know all of this but are simply blind to any but utterly Israel-centric, pro-Israel views. I was once a strong supporter of Israel too, and still am in many ways having to do with the everyday lives of people rather than the obnoxious behavior of the State.

on edit-- you are disingenuous sir-- you specifically said in your first response "They could detain his sisters, who live fat and sassy in Israel." Now you say "the point is that they're safe because they live in Israel." If that is true, why did you suggest that they might be "detained?"

[Scorpio2000]

19. Chess Game

Could you imagine playing a game of chess, where the rules only applied to your moves, and not to those of your opponent?

[Poll_Blind]

20. You're right it is disingenuous in the extreme. n/t

PB

[Tom Joad]

26. Mr. Lieberman sounds like Mr. Sharon.

Sharon turned much of Jenin into a soccer field.

[Tom Joad]

28. "I made them a stadium in the middle of the camp"

I entered Jenin, driven by madness, by desperation, in the worst condition
possible.

I told my wife: "If anything happens to me, at least someone will take care of
you".

The funny bit was, I didn't even know how to operate the D-9.

Within two hours, they taught me to drive forwards, and make a flat surface.

I tied the 'Beitar' football team flag to the back of the bulldozer and told them: "Move away, let me work.".

For three days, I just erased and erased

I kept drinking whisky to fight off fatigue

I didn't see dead bodies under the blade of the D-9, but I don't care if there
where any.

By Tsadok Yeheskeli, Yediot Aharonot.
http://www.gush-shalom.org/archives/kurdi_eng.html
______________________________________________________________________
This is what Sharon sent this man to do. To kill and destroy and destroy some more. In a drunken frenzy of terror.

Who spoke against this a popular action, and except for a few groups like Gush Shalom, the human rights groups like Btselem, and a few brave souls within the Israeli military who became refuseniks, there was little opposition to this, certainly within the mainstream parties of Labor and Likud.

What Lieberman says now is very popular. He is the mainstream of political discourse in Israel.

[cali]

29. Your statement

that what Lieberman said is very popular, doesn't constitute evidence that that is so. Nor that he is the mainstream of political discourse. That's like saying some wingnut Congressman is the 'mainstream' in American discorse. Both hear and in Israel, the discourse is far broader than you make it out to be.

[mike_c]

31. but the truth is that the wingnuts are in control...

...both in America and in Israel. That's mainstream enough, don't you think?

[Tom Joad]

35. Cali, i said there were groups who opposed Sharon.

During his rampage in Jenin and elsewhere.
Were they part of the ruling elite? Not any to my knowledge.

I know there are opponents to Lieberman in Israel, within the Jewish Israeli population.

However, will it be the policy of wide-scale death & destruction that will eventually be used? I fear it may.
Again.

and mr. bush will again say little to oppose it. Mr. Bush being one of the very few in the world to never say any discouraging word in regard to Israeli policies. Israel's leaders have a real friend in Mr. Bush. Proverbial peas in a pod.

[Violet_Crumble]

38. He is part of the mainstream...

He's not some whacko back-bencher that everyone laughs at - he was a Cabinet Minister until he resigned over the disengagement plan and in 2003 his National Union party won seven seats in the Knesset. While I'd agree that political discourse in Israel is broad due partly to their multiparty system, it's for exactly the same reason that it's pretty limited in the US where the Neoconservatives are very much a prominent part of the mainstream...

[cali]

39. I'll agree with that.

He's part of the mainstream, not THE mainstream. And despite the dominance of the two party system in the US, political discourse may not be as limited in the US as you may think. In my state, I'm represented in the Senate by Patrick Leahy, who's been in the Senate for 32 years, and is certainly part of the mainstream. He's also solidly liberal.

[Poll_Blind]

30. "Even a pregnant woman - shoot her without mercy, if she has a...

...terrorist behind her."

I read that whole article and it's going to haunt me for a long damned time.

PB

[Tom Joad]

36. Forgot to mention the commendation this man's unit received...

"After publication (of the above narration of the bulldozing of Jenin) - and in spite of it - the unit to which the man belongs received from the army command an official citation for outstanding service."