It is sheer barbarism to kill so many for ONE soldier. It just simply

[cantstandbush]

is an excuse to kill more and more Palestinians and grab more territory. Occupying soldiers are NOT "kidnapped." They are taken as prisoners of war. What are the Palestinain women and children being held in Israeli jails called? How can one justify bombing, bulldozing, and killing so many in the name of freeing one militant? No one would support this if the shoe were on the other foot.

[Lerkfish]

1. especially when you consider they have targeted the PM

which, as I understand it, is an assasination attempt against international law. But I'm no lawyer.
One wonders what that one soldier knows.

[Retired AF Dem]

7. Not a bad idea at all

how many wars would there be if the top govt leaders knew they would be the first to die?

[Lerkfish]

17. Assasinations START wars, they don't avoid them.

Archduke Ferdinand, for one.

The problem with assasination of leaders, besides morally, is that strategically you've just given your opponent a rallying cry for revenge. you dont' need to make a martyr of your opposing leaders.

[Retired AF Dem]

21. WW 1

Would of started no matter what. Europeans were just itching to kill them selfs off. Ferdinand just gave a convenient excuse.

[Lerkfish]

22. But why provide the convenient excuse? Honestly, I cannot in good

conscience condone what you propose. A leader putting themselves on the line for a war is one thing, targeting a leader is another.

Of course, I'm not a good person to ask, I'm a pacifist who feels all wars are unnecessary.

[Retired AF Dem]

24. It makes sense

How many wars would there be if the leaders knew they would be the first to die? I say there would be very few and you being a pacifist wouldnt that be a good thing?

[Lerkfish]

30. why would a pacifist condone assasination?

If I didn't like guns, but used a gun to kill a gun manufacturer, would that be ok?
If I didn't like abortion because I considered it murder, but killed a doctor, would that be ok?

As a pacifist, I would like to see as MUCH money spent on problem solving and diplomacy as is spent in one month on military items in Iraq.

I would not want to see death used a tool to avoid more death. However, I realize not every sees things as I do, I'm just saying *I* cannot condone assassination of leaders as a policy to avoid war. There has to be other, better ways to accomplish the same thing. We just never seem to spend time or resources figuring out what those other ways would be.

[Retired AF Dem]

32. I'm not advocating assassination

what I'm trying to say is would countries go to war with each other if the leaders knew they would be the first to die?

[msongs]

2. only doing what their bibles say. vengeance is mine sayeth the

israeli government.

after all there are NO islamics in the bible so they must not be protected by god's word :-)

Msongs
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm

[Tom Joad]

10. It is stupid to insert religion into this, it really has nothing to do

with this.

[Tom Joad]

3. Killing a whole society. Even if they ceased operations now, it will

take months before regular power is restored. Power to pump water, to treat sewage, and so many essential things.

But this whole operation, is just to show, as one Israeli put it, and is clear in any case, that Israel will not take any resistance, that they are tough, and there is nothing that will stop them. what international laws? When has international law been applied in respect to Israel? The nearly 40 year occupation continues, right?

It reminds me of the actions of the Marines in Haditha. The feeling being if they hurt one of ours, we will hurt you tenfold. In the mind of the Marines it was just "fighting back"

Any outside observer would see an atrocity.

[Pavulon]

5. Reciprocal.

Shoot rockets, get hit with counter battery fire. It is war against a democratically elected government. Hamas choose to kidnap the soldier and use gaza for a rocket range, so they are now being attacked.

Maybe they thought these things would not provoke a response.

[Tom Joad]

9. The proper response is to end the occupation. Lift restrictions on

movement, Remove the settlements from the West Bank. Release 9,000 Palestinian kidnap victims.

[donsu]

16. exactly - kicking

nt

[Pavulon]

19. Create a state

militarize the border and release any person who has not committed a criminal act.

refuse them re-entry to green line israel. Keep the golan heights, and see how long palestine lasts.

They gave up gaza and were willing to give up the west bank.

[Tom Joad]

27. Gave up Gaza? Not exactly.

Like i said, because Israel kept control of Gaza in so many ways, no entity recognized that the occupation had ended.

[Pavulon]

28. They left. Hamas used it to shoot rockets(nt)

[Tom Joad]

34. Can you name one entity, outside Israel, who claims that the

occupation in Gaza ended? Or did Israel keep tight control of Gaza, thus never-ending its occupation there?
What about the West Bank? It is expanding some of the settlements? What for? What sense is that?

We must end aid to Israel.

[Pavulon]

4. Don't poke a big guy in the chest

and challenge him to a fight if you are unwilling to take the blows. They ran a cross border incursion, grabbed a uniformed soldier.

So now they are paying. They know they are unable to fight and win, there is no pan arabic alliance to save them.

What do you expect from hamas? That is their sworn duty, if they intend to destroy israel, they will loose life in the process.

They gave gaza back, and it was used for rocket launches.

[Tom Joad]

6. Punishing a whole population? Gaza has been under occupation

for nearly 40 years. No international body, no humanitarian organization, no human rights entity, has said that it is not been under occupation. The disengagement did not go far enough.
The occupation must end.

[Pavulon]

25. Israel Left gaza

how much farther should have it have gone. A soon as they left the rockets started flying farther into israel.

The UN recognized israel, until they are unrecognized they have a right to exist in the green line borders.

[Tom Joad]

31. "they have a right to exist in the green line borders."

Why doesnt Israel get that? Why is it *still* building and expanding settlements in Palestinian land?

[Tom Joad]

8. The French resistance dared to poke a big boy in the chest.

and they paid dearly.
God bless them.

[Pavulon]

13. By killing civilians as policy?

The french resistance was not fighting a nation recognized by the UN. They gave gaza back, west bank was next.

That scared them. No more intifada money. The entire cold war palestinian conflict collapses when they have a state.

They used Gaza as a rocket range to fire into Israel. They ran a cross border incursion and started a mini war. Did they expect roses?

[donsu]

18. yes, resistance to occupation is patriotic

nt

[cantstandbush]

11. But I thought Israel was the little guy in a sea of giant Arabs?

At least that is how it passes itself off when it wants to violate every international law on the books.

[Pavulon]

14. 3 wars

3 and 0. Israel is a nation and can act sovereignly. If there is a problem the security council can act. So far no action.

Lots of resolutions from arab states.

However they have not invaded any of the nations that attacked them in the last century.

[Martin Eden]

15. Who poked the big guy?

Certainly not all the innocent people who are suffering from Israel's response to the poke.

Collective punishment is wrong, and in the long run the big guy will suffer because of it. He is not acting in his own best interests.

[Pavulon]

23. If they choose to fight among

civilians that is a sad choice. There are plenty of pics on getty showing armed positions where children are present. Their presence inside the burst radius of a tank round or machine gun burst is a sad result of war.

Hamas is an elected government and provoked a military act. If they want to be a nation state, they can play by nation state rules.

Palestinians have chosen to use violent diplomacy, killing clearly unarmed civilians so they have no ground to stand on here.

[Martin Eden]

26. Try turning that argument around.

Israelis voted for a government that has committed numerous acts of violence against Palestinians, who fight back with the limited means at their disposal. The death of innocent Israeli citizens is a sad result of war.

My point here is that unless and until particpants in this conflict refrain from unnecessary and counterproductive violence, there will be no end to the sad results of war.

[Pavulon]

29. Yep

when Israel begins to target civilians for mass killing as policy it will have my attention.

I agree with the last statement.

[Martin Eden]

33. Targeted or not,

the sad result is civilian deaths. Israeli military action is undertaken with the clear understanding that "collateral damage" will result.

If you agree with the last statement of my previous post, would you also agree that if the Israelis wait for all Palestinian violence to end before they cease their own violence, there will never be an end to it?

[Martin Eden]

12. Violence must be met with greater violence.

That was the argument of my Republican college buddy on July 4th. We were talking about Iraq, but he meant it as a broad principle. My thought was that if everybody adopted this principle the world would be engulfed in a never-ending escalation of violence until there were no longer enough people to perpetuate it.

The viscious cycle of violence between the Israelis and Palestinians should have provided an example of what we needed to avoid but our government CHOSE that path when it invaded Iraq -- which wasn't even in keeping with the principle of greater violence because Iraq did not attack us.

Israel is currently meting out collective punishment against Palestinian lives and infrastructure. If they think this will make them more secure they are insane. This is what happens when one chooses the path of greater violence.

[donsu]

20. yes, they have gone insane

nt

[undergroundrailroad]

35. Locking per I/P Guidelines

Must include link to current article or op-ed.


Undergroundrailroad
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