For those who say Palestinians sent a message in voting for Hamas

[liberalhistorian]

I am hearing more and more that the Palestinians "brought this on themselves" by "sending a message" when they voted in Hamas several months ago. So, for those of you who actually believe that, I have a simple question for you. What about the "message" sent by Israel when it voted for Sharon, the "Butcher of Beirut" himself? The bloodthirsty Arab-hater responsible for massacres in Lebanese refugee camps in the early 80's, who deliberately provoked an intifada by visiting what Muslims consider to be a very holy shrine? You don't think that "sent a message" to the Arab world as to what Israel really thought of them?

[movonne]

1. I guess we are not really looking for democracy in these countries,

vote for who we say, is not democracy...

[liberalhistorian]

2. Exactly!

We want democracy only when it goes totally OUR way.

[Full Metal]

3. The massacre in sabra and shatilla:

Were done by Lebanese Christian militia not the Israelis.

[liberalhistorian]

4. Bull!

Sharon and Israel had their hands deep into the whole mess, and Sharon has never made a secret of his true feelings regarding Arabs.

[Full Metal]

8. The Israelis had nothing to do with it

The Lebanese militia went on a rampage after the Christian President was assasinated.

[PA Democrat]

13. The findings of Israel's Kahan Commission found that Sharon

did indeed bear a share of the responsibility for the massacres conducted by the Phalangists.

Findings of the Kahan Commission:

In February 1983, the three-member Israeli official independent commission of inquiry charged with investigating the events known as the Kahan Commission named former Defense Minister Sharon as one of the individuals who "bears personal responsibility" for the Sabra and Shatilla massacre.

Former Defense Minister Sharon´s decision to allow the Phalange into the camps: The Kahan Commission report detailed the direct role of former Defense Minister Sharon in allowing the Phalangists into the Sabra and Shatilla camps. For instance, then-Chief of Staff Lt.-Gen. Rafael Eitan testified that the entry of the Phalangists into the refugee camps was agreed upon between former Defense Minister Sharon and himself. Thereafter, former Defense Minister Sharon went to Phalangist headquarters and met with, among others, a number of Phalangist commanders. A document issued by former Defense Minister Sharon´s office containing “The Defense Minister´s Summary of 15 September 1982” states: “For the operation in the camps the Phalangists should be sent in.” That document also stated that “the I.D.F. shall command the forces in the area.”

Former Defense Minister Sharon´s disregard of the consequences of that decision: As to former Defense Minister Sharon´s testimony that “no one had imagined the Phalangists would carry out a massacre in the camps,” the Kahan Commission concluded that “it is impossible to justify disregard of the danger of a massacre” because “no prophetic powers were required to know that a concrete danger of acts of slaughter existed when the Phalangists were moved into the camps without the I.D.F.´s being with them.” In fact, the Commission found: “In our view, everyone who had anything to do with events in Lebanon should have felt apprehension about a massacre in the camps, if armed Phalangist forces were to be moved into them without the I.D.F. exercising concrete and effective supervision and scrutiny of them…. To this backdrop of the Phalangists´ toward the Palestinians were added the profound shock ….”

If in fact the Defense Minister, when he decided that the Phalangists would enter the camps without the I.D.F. taking part in the operation, did not think that that decision could bring about the very disaster that in fact occurred, the only possible explanation for this is that he disregarded any apprehensions about what was to be expected because the advantages . . . to be gained from the Phalangists´ entry into the camps distracted him from the proper consideration in this instance.

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2001/06/23/isrlpa97.htm

[papau]

10. Very true - revenge for the PA/Shia murder of the Phalange leader. n/t

n/t

[wellst0nev0ter]

12. Lessee

The U.S. successfully managed the withdrawal of the PLO from Beirut, and the U.S. departed from Lebanon after securing a promise from Israel that they WON'T attack Beirut.

But Sharon broke that promise and attacked West Beirut, and with their proxy armies oversaw the slaughter of Palestinian refugees who were now defenseless.

Oh yeah, the Israelis had nothing to do with it :eyes:

[papau]

14. Here's alittle bit more of the history that may be useful to understanding

The PLO/Lebanon/Israeli portion of the story seems to begin with the March 1978 PLO terrorists infiltrating Israel, murdering an American tourist walking near an Israeli beach, then hijacking a civilian bus, killing or causing to be killed their 34 hostages as Israeli's tried to stop the PLO from killing more Israelis via gunfire from the bus. In response, Israeli forces crossed into Lebanon and overran terrorist bases in the southern part of that country. And thus began in that part of Lebanon a series of PLO attacks and Israeli reprisals, "ending" in a US brokered cease­fire agreement in July 1981, which the PLO repeatedly violated over the next 11 months with 270 terrorist attacks. In June 1982 Palestinian terrorist Abu Nidal attempted to assassinate Israel's Ambassador to Great Britain, Shlomo Argov, which was responded to by an IDF attack on the PLO in Lebanon on June 4-5, 1982, which in turn was responded to by a PLO massive artillery and mortar attack on the Israeli population of the Galilee, which was followed by the June 6 movement of the IDF moved into Lebanon. In 1983, Lebanon's President, Amin Gemayel, signed a peace treaty with Israel. A year later, Syria forced Gemayel to renege on the agreement. The war then became drawn out as the IDF captured Beirut and surrounded Yasser Arafat and his guerrillas.

One should note that the PLO was thought of as murders by the Lebanese after the news of the PLO's sacking of and massacre of 100's of the citizens of the Christian city of Damour, following the PLO's taking over of that city in 1976. Indeed on October 14, 1976, Lebanese Ambassador Edward Ghorra told the UN General Assembly the PLO was bringing ruin upon his country: “Palestinian elements ..... resorted to kidnapping Lebanese, and sometimes foreigners, holding them prisoners, questioning them, and even sometimes killing them.” Indeed New York Times correspondent David Shipler visited Damour in 1982 wrote that Palestinians and Lebanese leftists had turned the town into a military base, "using its churches as strongholds and armories" (New York Times, June 21, 1982).

The 8,000 Palestinian guerrillas, 2,600 PLA regulars, and 3,600 Syrian troops trapped in West Beirut were indeed allowed to leave beginning on August 21 based on Arafat's agreement, through intermediaries with Ambassador Habib ( a point used by Arafat to claim US recognition of the PLO), to move his operations to Tripoli.

On August 23, 1982 the legislature elected Bashir Jumayyil president of Lebanon, who then reneged on his agreement to begin talks on a peace treaty with Israel. On September 10, the United States Marines/MNF withdrew from Beirut. The Lebanese Army moved into West Beirut, and the Israelis withdrew their troops from the front lines.

Jumayyil on September 14, 1982, was assassinated by the Syrian Habib Shartuni and his Lebanese friends.

On the evening of September 16, 1982, 300 to 400 Christian militiamen entered the Sabra and Shatila camps killing 700 to 800 Palestinian men, women, and children.

While some say the Phalangists militiamen were controlled by Israel, that has never been shown. What was shown was the fact that the Israelis did nothing to stop the killing despite their monitoring the Phalangist radio network. The Israelis also fired illumination flares from mortars and aircraft to light the area and were able to see into a small part of the camp from the top of a 6 story building where they had some troops.

Today the "Syrian-backed" Lebanese Army has yet to take action against Hezbollah, or other terrorist organizations, such as the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP), Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command (PFLP-GC) or Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP), which have bases in the formerly Syrian-controlled Bekaa Valley in eastern Lebanon.

As to your statement "Sharon broke that promise (to not attack West Beirut)" I do not know of the facts that you are refering to. I would be interested in reading about whatever it is that is the basis for the statement.

[wellst0nev0ter]

15. Sharon Gave His Word To Reagan Envoy Philip Habib

That he would not attack the Beirut refugeee camps. From John Boykin's "Cursed Is The Peace Maker" (p. 271)

"As Sharon tells the story , the problem was not that hundreds of people got killed. It was just that too many of the wrong people got killed. The Phalangists just 'went too far', he says, killing too many civilians when they were supposed to be killing only terrorists. To Phil Habib and most of the rest of the world, the problem was that no such operation should have happened at all.... Phil Habib... was devastated.... It wasn't just that everything he had worked for all summer had now gone down the toilet. It was that he was the one who had promised the civilians' safety. 'I had signed this paper which guaranteed that these people in west Beirut would not be harmed. I got specific guarantees on this from Bashir and from the Israelis--from Sharon'. He said he 'had been given assurances... that no action would be taken against the Palestinians remaining in the camps.... On the basis of those assurances we had given our word. We had been deceived.... Sharon was a killer, obsessed by hatred of the Palestinians,' Habib said. 'I had given Arafat an undertaking that his people would not be harmed, but this was toally disregarded by Sharon whose word was worth nothing.'"

The fact that the Christian Phalangists made up Israel's proxy army is an established fact. The fact that Sharon and the IDF invaded Beirut again and did nothing to stop the massacre was the reason an Israeli commission found him indirectly responsible for the massacre and demoted him.

Also it's pretty hard for the Lebanese army to take action against Hezbollah when their barracks keep getting bombed.

[papau]

16. Habib as Reagan's rep reported to Haig, who blessed Sharon's plan

Habib as Reagan's rep reported to Haig, who blessed Sharon's plan is perhaps a gross paraphrase of the John Boykin writing, but it appears to me to be what he is saying - which, given the Boykin comment about a Sharon/Haig understanding (or misunderstanding as the case may be), seems to make "betrayed his word" depend on Haig - not Habib - saying so. But the "I thought they were only going after terrorists in the camps" is indeed a statement Sharon did say.

The Kahane Commission, and even more so the BBC program "Panorama", came down hard on Sharon. Even granted that the BBC anti-Israel slant is well documented, the Panorama program (which is the BBC's flagship television current affairs program and one I like a great deal and trust as to specific facts) found little good in Sharon's non-actions to protect civilians.

The Kahane Commission that Boykin mentions found that there was "no conspiracy" by the Israelis to perpetrate the massacre, but did find that Sharon "disregarded the danger of acts of vengeance and bloodshed by the Phalangists against the population of the refugee camps. He failed to take this danger into account when he decided to have the Phalangists enter the camps." He failed to order "appropriate measures for preventing or reducing the danger of massacre as a condition for the Phalangist entry into the camps." - and, as Borkin notes, this violates the civilian protection idea - which most countries have violated since it was put forth beginning with the Laws and Customs of War on Land (Hague, II), July 29, 1899, and indeed most countries today violate it's latest affirmations in UN resolutions and proposed treaties. It will be nice when real International Law exists, with international enforcement, that is more robust that a UN "war crimes indictment" and a possible UN Criminal Court trial - or the possibility of a Belgian court claiming jurisdiction over the activities of the world and investigating based on the Belgian law incorporating the Geneva conventions.

In any case "indirectly responsible for the massacre and demoted him" refers to the removal of Sharon as defense minister and a ruling that he was unfit to ever hold that post. I wonder if a Muslim court will ever rule on civilian population deaths that are Israeli deaths, and take similiar action.

In any case, I wonder how one gets from seeing the Christian Phalangists as Allies of Israel during the 80's invasion - and that, given the PLO massacre of Christian city of Damour and other evil was a given before the invasion - to seeing the Christian Phalangists as "Israel's proxy army" - a term that implies command and control.

As to the recent bombing of the Lebanese army barracks http://www.upi.com/InternationalIntelligence/view.php being a reason they have not tried to control Hez, you are of course speaking "tongue in cheek" - but one wonders how the Shia in the Army will react if ever called upon by their leaders to control the south of Lebanon.

By the way - thanks for an interesting discussion :-)

peace :-)

[cali]

5. Really?

I don't see comments akin that with great frequency, and I participate in the I/P forum.

But that's not the point I want to make. As someone interested in history, you could have taken the opportunity to inform your fellow DUers of the real reasons why Palestinians elected Hamas. They elected Hamas, in large part, because of the corruption, weakness and ineptitude of Fatah. Hamas had built up a reservoir of good will amoung the population, by investing in the community via social services and health facilities. Yes, their reputation of carrying out successful attacks of Israeli territory, didn't hurt, but that is not why they were elected.
There's much more. That's a very quick assessment.

Instead of providing information, you've posted something that has no value except to start a flame war, reflecting in a weird way the exact bloody and pointless back and forth that actually takes place.

You should be ashamed.

[papau]

11. Well said- and I think Hamas was not yet - and I hope still not -terrorist

Arafat destroyed good government when he destroyed the PA institutions/government in the 70's in favor of tribal government where he maintained control via being the only one who could do "favors".

I would have been hard pressed to not vote for Hamas given the situation - but I'd would have screamed about the need to not do war but to make peace based on Taba - and I am not sure if my mid-east cousins would have allowed me to live after hearing my scream for peace.

It was/is a lousy situation for those living there.

[Violet_Crumble]

17. Of course comments like that have appeared here with some frequency...

I can supply you with links to them if you like, because they most definately do exist, and I've used those opportunities to explain to those posters why the Palestinians elected Hamas only to see the same posters pop up further down the track using exactly the same sort of comments they had before...

I fail to see how LiberalHistorian ASKING people who hold that view a question is an attempt to start a flame war. Take a look through just a few of the threads in this forum over the past week or so. From OP's with inflammatory nonsense like this I'm going to enjoy watching the extremists around here trash all their favorite Representatives. to this Suppose The United Nations gave away our Land to some people. That stuff is flamebait, but not LH's....

[Marie26]

6. Message: Hate provokes hate. nt

[Horse with no Name]

7. I think the problem was the Hamas wasn't given a chance

Jimmy Carter said the same thing, and gee, didn't he get the Nobel Peace Prize?


http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/02/01/carter.hamas/
>>>snip
(CNN) -- Hamas deserves to be recognized by the international community, and despite the group's militant history, there is a chance the soon-to-be Palestinian leaders could turn away from violence, former President Jimmy Carter said Wednesday.

Carter, who monitored last week's Palestinian elections in which Hamas handily toppled the ruling Fatah, added that the United States should not cut off aid to the Palestinian people, but rather funnel it through third parties like the U.N.

"If you sponsor an election or promote democracy and freedom around the world, then when people make their own decision about their leaders, I think that all the governments should recognize that administration and let them form their government," Carter said. (Watch the former president cautiously defend Hamas -- 4:35)

"If there are prohibitions -- like, for instance, in the United States, against giving any money to a government that is controlled by Hamas -- then the United States could channel the same amount of money to the Palestinian people through the United Nations, through the refugee fund, through UNICEF, things of that kind," he added.

[papau]

9. Christian Phalange party revenge for PA killing of Pres-elect Gemayel

is now a Sharon, the "Butcher of Beirut" black mark?

Sounds like a Socialist Worker web site http://www.socialistworker.org/2002-2/422/422_06_SabraShatila.shtml interpretation of Sharon's wrong headed, poor decision to not use Israeli military lives to defend the PA in the camps.

I agree that he should have accepted the idea that he had police responsibility for the area because he had military control - and that the result of his decision to look the other way was horrific for the Palestinians at the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps - but "Butcher of Beirut" ??? and sending a message ???

It was far-right revenge for a Palestinian/Shia murder of the Christain Phalange leader who had just been elected President of Lebanon - and indeed the far-right folks in this case were Christians.