Italian TV: Israel used new weapon prototype in Gaza Strip

[tocqueville]

By Meron Rapoport

An investigative report to be aired on Italian television today raises the possibility that Israel has used an experimental weapon in the Gaza Strip in recent months, causing especially serious physical injuries, such as amputated limbs and severe burns. The weapon is similar to one developed by the U.S. military called DIME, which causes a powerful and lethal blast, but only within a relatively small radius.

The Italian report is based on the eyewitness accounts of medical doctors in the Strip, as well as tests carried out in an Italian laboratory. The investigative team is the same one that exposed, several months ago, the use by U.S. forces in Iraq of phosphorous bombs, against Iraqi rebels in Faluja.

Israel Air Force Maj.-Gen (res.) Yitzhak Ben-Israel, formerly head of the IDF's weapons-development program, told the Italian reporters that "one of the ideas is to allow those targeted to be hit without causing damage to bystanders or other persons."

The investigation, by Rai24news, follows reports by Gaza-based doctors of inexplicably serious injuries. The doctors reported an exceptionally large number of wounded who lost legs, of completely burned bodies and injuries unaccompanied by metal shrapnel. Some of the doctors also claimed that they removed particles from wounds that could not be seen in an x-ray machine

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/772894.html

[Ilsa]

1. Shit like this scares me...

Makes the second amendment totally irrelevant (in the event that the people might ever have to take up arms against her govt).

[NoodleyAppendage]

2. One hopes that a Jewish nation would be sensitive to human experimentatio

Oh, I see the logic. It's o.k. to test out lethal weapons and experiment on people as long as they are deemed "the enemy." Hmmm...for some reason that logic seems familiar.

J

[Behind the Aegis]

5. What experimentation are you talking about?

The weapons, if real, are designed to minimize civilian casualties. Seems you are jumping ahead of yourself.

[tocqueville]

6. Four top doctors arrested over illegal human experimentation

By Ran Reznik, Haaretz Correspondent

Last Update: 10/10/2006 02:41

Four senior doctors at Kaplan Hospital in Rehovot and Hartzfeld Geriatric Hospital in Gedera suspected of illegally experimenting on humans were arrested Monday.

The national fraud squad has opened an investigation into the affair. The four are suspected of abuse, aggravated assault, causing death through negligence, fraud, forgery, breach of statutory duty, and disruption of legal proceedings.

The Tel Aviv Magistrate's Court on Monday extended by three days the remands of Kaplan-Hartzfeld deputy director Dr. Shmuel Levi and Dr. Nadia Kagensky. The third suspect, Dr. Alona Smirnov, was released to house arrest for five days, and the fourth suspect was released following an investigation.

Police searched the houses of all four suspects and confiscated incriminating documents.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArtVty.jhtml?sw=medical&itemNo=772409

[Behind the Aegis]

8. A little math for you.

4 Israeli doctors does not equal 1 Jewish nation!

[tocqueville]

9. of course not

but it shows that the idea (practice) isn't foreign even in a Jewish nation despite the fact that they have been themselves subjected to it. The original poster said that weapons were "experimented" on humans and that should be sensisitive specially in Israel. So of course there is a relation between the two posts, a relation of very little concern about human life and suffering in both cases.

And besides if you read the article you'll see that plenty of people were involved and the victims not so few.

I can tell you that this kind of stuff is practically impossible in Europe today. And even if it happened it would be a MAJOR scandal. Which doesn't seem to be the case in Israel.

[Behind the Aegis]

12. well...

"I can tell you that this kind of stuff is practically impossible in Europe today. And even if it happened it would be a MAJOR scandal. Which doesn't seem to be the case in Israel."

I was unaware that Europe was in a constant of war on their own land? Did I miss a war?

This article is supposition and speculation. It is under investigation, as it should be! However, until it is proved or disproved, perhaps we should hold off on the sniping at the "Jewish nation!"

[NoodleyAppendage]

20. Chill out.

It appears that the IDF did test a weapon system on humans, in which case I would hope that you would condemn the practice regardless of the "constant war on their own land" excuse. Inhumanity CAN NOT be combated by inhumanity. If this is your logic, then Israel loses all high ground in their "constant war."

J

[tocqueville]

22. WTF have geriatric experiments to do with the war ? nt

[Behind the Aegis]

24. Apologies.

I thought you were talking about the weapons. As for the experiments, it is a MAJOR case in Israel. I heard about this awhile back. That story was not new.

[ninkasi]

3. This is inhuman

To cause wounds like this is even worse than the previous weapons have been. Many of the dead have been children, both in Falluja and the Gaza Strip. Is this, then, the way the so-called values voters think the innocent should be treated? We, and I mean humans, have to find some means of sharing this planet without causing horrific atrocities. There is no reason for doing this. I have trouble sleeping, because I know that so much suffering is going on, and I don't have the power to change it. If I were Dubya, I would be terribly afraid of facing the God he claims to believe in.

[Behind the Aegis]

4. I see nothing but speculation.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

10. really. you must have not read the whole thing

"The Italian reporters sent samples of the particles found in wounds of injured in the Gaza Strip to a laboratory at the University of Parma. Dr. Carmela Vaccaio said that in analyzing the samples, she found "a very high concentration of carbon and the presence of unusual materials," such as copper, aluminum and tungsten. Dr. Vaccaio says these findings "could be in line with the hypothesis" that the weapon in question is DIME. "

a lab doesn't speculate. it hypothesizes.

i won't expect any mea culpas, though - since it seems youre rather programmed to believe what you want despite the facts or evidence to the contrary of your own position. sad, really.

of course, once it comes out that they did in fact use these things you'll argue that it was all done in a very sanitary fashion and act like you never denied their usage and move on to your next phase of denial.

[Behind the Aegis]

11. Read your own post.

Hypothesizing and speculating are synonyms.

"The Italian reporters sent samples of the particles found in wounds of injured in the Gaza Strip to a laboratory at the University of Parma. Dr. Carmela Vaccaio said that in analyzing the samples, she found "a very high concentration of carbon and the presence of unusual materials," such as copper, aluminum and tungsten. Dr. Vaccaio says these findings "could be in line with the hypothesis" that the weapon in question is DIME. "

"Could be" is not conclusive but SPECULATION!

i won't expect any mea culpas, though - since it seems youre rather programmed to believe what you want despite the facts or evidence to the contrary of your own position. sad, really.

Nor will I, despite your programming, which is, as you say, sad.

of course, once it comes out that they did in fact use these things you'll argue that it was all done in a very sanitary fashion and act like you never denied their usage and move on to your next phase of denial.

Crystal ball? Runes? Magic 8 Ball?

[Name removed]

18. Deleted sub-thread

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[Tom Joad]

13. It could be wrong. Maybe Israel is using nothing but ol' fashion weapons

to kill Palestinian families.

[Behind the Aegis]

14. Works for the Palestinians' killing Israeli families.

[Tom Joad]

23. Israel kills 20 times more Palestinians. Palestine is occupied

Israel is not occupied.

Not one Palestinian tank is in a Israeli town. Not one Palestinian bulldozer has destroyed Israeli crops. Not one Palestinian helicopter has shot into Israeli protesters. No Cat bulldozers are destroying Israeli homes.

Some perspective helps.

[Behind the Aegis]

25. Dead is dead, is it not?

[Tom Joad]

26. It's all very sad. yes. Let's work to end this

insane, illegal, immoral, occupation of Palestinian land that has cost the lives of so many on both sides.

[Behind the Aegis]

27. Yes. End it in a way that is fair and equitable to both peoples.

[Englander]

32. That isn't happening.

What you're describing isn't happening, & hasn't for months, if it was ever happening at all. What
you're describing isn't occuring in this reality.

Five members of a family were killed this week;

'Israeli raid on Gaza kills five

Five Palestinians have been killed during an Israeli raid in the Gaza Strip, reports say.

Medics and security officials said a teenage bystander and at least three gunmen were killed during the clashes in the early hours of Thursday morning.

>snip

Palestinian security sources said all five were members of the same family and were killed when a pilotless Israeli aircraft fired two missiles at a group of people, including gunmen.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6043042.stm

[Phrogman]

15. Of course you'd say that....

[madrchsod]

16. sure sounds like a DIME weapon

nasty little weapon but it does not have a large destructive blast area. it may depend on the dia of the carbon fiber casing they use in relation to the injuries,carbon fiber shards are very, very nasty..

[madrchsod]

17. here`s the DIME weapon`s facts

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/dime.htm
Dense Inert Metal Explosive (DIME)

if these reports are true then this is what was used..

[Name removed]

19. Deleted sub-thread

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[cigsandcoffee]

21. If this weapon is designed to minimize collateral damage...

...then I am missing the problem. Is it better to have a more legs blown off by conventional explosives or fewer blown off by a modern weapon designed to be more concentrated?

[Englander]

29. Rummy? n/t

[stephinrome]

31. The problem is that they will be considered "safe"

for use in densely populated civilian areas since they *only* kill and maim those within 4 meters.

Steph

[Englander]

28. This sounds very credible.

The evidence is there, & clearly Haaretz are convinced that the report is credible, as they've decided to print it.

[stephinrome]

30. more links and comment from Scoop on credibility

Hi, I went to a presentation of this video yesterday morning in Rome.

RaiNews24 Video in English:
Gaza: Inexplicable Wounds and New Weapons
http://www.rainews24.rai.it/ran24/inchieste/10102006_gaza_eng.asp

Article in DefenseTech from last May referenced in the video:
Cancer Worries for New U.S. Bombs
http://www.defensetech.org/archives/002434.html

Article on The Independent from early Sept:
Gaza Doctors Encounter 'Unexplained Injuries'
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0904-05.htm

And here is the comment from Scoop published yesterday:

Middle East News Service comment: For several months there have been reports circulating of a new weapon being used by Israel in Gaza. As a person committed to high scepticism I have tended to dismiss them especially since hard-left friends in Israel with contacts in the UN operation in Gaza said that the UN medical specialists have dismissed the story. This report is far more credible and the way Haaretz is treating it in English (the Hebrew edition is a bout to come out some time in the next hour) indicates the seriousness that they are taking it. The scientific explanation fills in the gaps that existed hitherto. It fills me with sadness to think that this is what "a light upon the nations" a subject often raised in my schooling in Israel - has come down to "more efficient ways of killing people." Sol Salbe.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0610/S00161.htm

Steph

[malaise]

33. No surprise here n/t

[Vitruvius]

34. The Israelis may yet reap what they've sowed --

a lot of people in that part of the world would like to see the Israelis carpet bombed like they did to the Lebanese (complete with millions of anti-personnel bomblets to kill people later), used for prototype weapons experiments like the people of Gaza, and -- like Gen'l Dayan's prescription for the final solution to the Palestinian problem -- occupied and "treated like dogs" until they give up & get out so the occupiers can steal their homes & land.

If you kick people when they're little, you'd better be prepared to run when they get big. Does anybody here think that Israel will be all-powerful in the mideast in 20 - 50 years? Does anybody think that the people of the mideast don't have long memories -- and an appetite for revenge (or 'justice' -- take your pick) as all humans do? Would such eye-for-an-eye revenge on the Israelis be right? I think everybody here would agree that it would be wrong. So anybody who thinks that what Isreal is doing is right is applying a vicious double standard.

And we in the U.S. can take note. Given our country's own bloody record in Iraq. It's time for both us and Israel to keep off of other peoples' land and clean up our acts. Because -- right or wrong -- what comes around goes around.

[breakaleg]

35. The idea that Israelis can occupy a people and then treat them

like guinea pigs, with no regard for them as people, is unconscionable. I'm constantly surprised by the depths Israel will sink to in their supposed "defense".