Israeli killings resume in Gaza Strip

[bemildred]

Israeli troops are reported to have killed four Palestinians in northern Gaza, two of them civilians including a 75-year-old, in one of its biggest operations in the coastal strip in months.

Witnesses said soldiers, backed by tanks and using loudspeakers, ordered all residents over 16 years of age in the town of Beit Hanoun to present themselves at a school for questioning.

The town of 30,000 people has been effectively under an army curfew since the Israeli troops entered it on Wednesday, the witnesses said.

The latest casualties bring to 13 the number of Palestinians killed since Wednesday.

al Jazeera

[acmavm]

1. Those fun lovin' peaceful Israelis sure are showing how much

they want to live in peace with their neighbors, aren't they?

Damn those Palestinians getting in the way of those bullets...

<snip>

Relatives said one of the civilians killed on Thursday, a 75-year-old man, was shot by troops on a rooftop when he went onto the balcony of his home to take his disabled son inside. The army said its forces were only targeting militants.

Among the dead was a Hamas gunman who worked as a bodyguard for Ismail Haniyeh, the Palestinian prime minister, witnesses said.

Hospital officials said 15 people had been wounded, including four children and a woman injured when a tank shell hit their house.

<snip>

[Scurrilous]

2. Israeli troops clash with gunmen at Gaza mosque

IDF soldiers, 60 holed up gunmen exchange fire in Beit Hanoun. Palestinians report IDF bulldozers demolished mosque wall in attempt to force gunmen to surreneder. IDF: Several wanted terrorists holed up in mosque

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3323131,00.html

<snip>

"Israeli troops exchanged fire on Friday with Palestinian gunmen holed up in a mosque in Gaza, as the army pushed ahead with one of its biggest offensives in the strip in months.

According to IDF sources, the Palestinians were keeping a great amount of artillery within the mosque. The sources also said that amongst the holed up gunmen were wanted senior activists who were leading the Qassam attacks from the Northern Gaza Strip.

The siege of the mosque and exchange of fire with the holed up gunmen were the peak of a widespread IDF operation in Beit Hanoun against the Qassam rocket-launching infrastructure.

The operation, which included door to door checks in the town, was the first in recent years in Gaza, including the time which the IDF spent in Gush Katif. The arrest of the wanted terrorists could have a significant effect for the IDF, since Beit Hanoun is considered pivotal in the Qassam rocket-launching infrastructure."



IDF troops encircle Gaza mosque, trade fire with gunmen inside

<snip>

"Israel Defense Forces troops exchanged fire early Friday with Palestinian gunmen holed up in a mosque in the northern Gaza town of Beit Hanun. During the clashes, the ceiling of the mosque collapsed. Palestinian sources say most of the militants managed to escape unharmed.

Palestinian witnesses said that IDF bulldozers had demolished a wall of the mosque, where 60 gunmen had fled, and fired stun grenades and tear gas in a bid to force them to surrender."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/783100.html

[bemildred]

3. I especially liked this quote:

"We are using every means not to damage the mosque," the source said.

Roof of Gaza mosque falls as militants, IDF clash

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/783100.html

[Scurrilous]

5. LOL

I saw that...

[bemildred]

4. This is good too:

"Hundreds of militants were arrested during the raid, Palestinian sources said, in which troops rounded up all men between the ages of 16 and 40.

Meanwhile, six Qassam rockets landed in the western Negev on Thursday, wounding three Israelis."

(same source)

[pelsar]

6. another good one...

fired stun grenades and tear gas in a bid to force them to surrender."

the soliders must have been laughing to themselves at such a stuiped order that endangered them...firing tear gas in a war zone to "force them to surrender".....

shows you how idiocy of the PC world has entered the IDF

[bemildred]

7. Well, I do agree about the idiocy.

And I certainly do have sympathy with the soldiers required to carry it out. It is not unlike the US forces in Iraq and the fiction that they are there to "help the Iraqis". Another political dog-and-pony show.

[Lithos]

8. Struck me as police work

For which the soldiers are not trained for. Really different skill sets are needed. Rules of engagement, tactics and expectations are different as well.

People who make good soldiers do not necessarily make good cops.

L-

[bemildred]

9. There are different points of view that one can take.

That is one. One can say much the same of the situation in Iraq, that our troops are trained for conventional war "shock and awe" tactics, but are required to deal with dispersed and dismounted "insurgents". You can point out the folly of saying that men who live there are "hiding among civilians", they are the civilians. The problem is that aroused, occupied civilians that are well enough armed can give a good account of themselves with guerilla tactics on their own territory. I pointed out back in Jan or Feb to Mr. Pelsar, in the context of the "withdrawal", that the rockets would not stop either because of the "withdrawal" or by virtue of these sorts of tactics under discussion here. It is now November and it appears that more rockets are being fired and the technology is being improved. The Israeli establishment is whining that the Palestinians are smuggling in better arms, as if one could not expect them to do so. There is a persistent folly in Israeli dialog that assumes that the Palestinians are supposed to accept their fate and lose gracefully, that if only their lives are made bad enough they will somehow evaporate and go away. It is not going to happen. It is not acceptable to just kill them all. Someone, at some point, is going to have to work out a deal, and they longer they procrastinate, the worse the deal is going to be for Israelis; and there will come a time when the Palestinians - similarly filled with the folly of self-love - will be as intransigent as the Israelis are now about compromise.

[breakaleg]

10. I agree with every thing you said...

I always find it interesting to hear the 'hiding among civilians'accusation. It makes it sound like these people took off their military uniforms and are taking over other families' homes, when in reality, they are civilians. And can you expect civilians to fight out in the open the way you want them to, knowing they aren't a real military and don't have the resources that a full fledged army does?

And this beat the Palestinians into submission thing is the worst strategy ever. The only way it will work is if all of the Palestinians give up, realize the futility of resisting and accept that they have no homes, no land, no control of their lives. I think there would be mass suicide if they were to do that. And as much as I absolutely disagree with the suicide bombings, isn't that what that is - an act of absolute desperation? The realization that they only thing they have to fight with is giving up their lives?

Killing them, is not going to make the survivors or mourners any more willing to negotiate. I'm really surprised that Israel doesn't see this. Although I wonder if they do, but just don't really want peace or don't see the huge loss of life on the Palestinians side enough reason to want to deal.

[pelsar]

11. this is very not true.....

There is a persistent folly in Israeli dialog that assumes that the Palestinians are supposed to accept their fate and lose gracefully, that if only their lives are made bad enough they will somehow evaporate and go away.

as you wrote the kassams didnt stop after the withdrawl and the palestenains had no intention of stopping them......We have no illusions of the palestenains "accepting their fate".... nor of them going away. The military response is very simple and very selfish:

the kassams have no 100% full proof answer, but as long as there is pressure on the firing teams, they will miss far more than they will hit.

Whether or not the gazans take some responsability for their fate is up to them, but that is more there concern then it is ours. Ours is to limit the killing of israelis.

If they do decide one day to stop trying to kill israelis, they will find the IDF gone from the horizon, but its up to them, whenever that day comes

[bemildred]

12. You, Sir, at the time, were belaboring me for saying that they would not be stopped. nt

[pelsar]

13. you lost me..

i belabored you for saying they wouldnt be stopped?....i also believed they wouldnt be totally stopped, though i admit to having hopes for the opposite. However if i did, then somewhere along the line i messed up..perhaps i wrote wrong? At anyrate, i then apologise for a misunderstanding because i agree with you in this instance.

(calling me Mr....sounds so formal.....)

[bemildred]

14. Well, we don't seem to communicate well, it's true.

That's why I tend not to try. But thank you for your apology. You were giving me a hard time for saying that the Gaza operations, and the artillery, would not stop the rockets, or the resistance, and that those were in fact counterproductive. I would wager we still disagree about that. But that's a complicated subject.

I was quite annoyed at the time, and the "Sir" is an echo of that.

[pelsar]

15. these forums...

are really a horrible way to communicate....no facial cues, no ability to stop and explain further or "change direction".....or even make a joke to lighten things up.....

[bemildred]

16. True, not for people with sensitive dispostions. nt

[IntiRaymi]

17. Couldn't agree more.

I have stated this before - Using an Army for police work brings it dishonor.

Not a big fan of people with abusive mindsets, apparently.

[bemildred]

18. It makes it a lousy Army, witness what happened in Lebanon. nt