Israeli snipers continue Gaza assault

[bemildred]

Israeli snipers killed two Palestinians in Gaza on Saturday, one of them a 12-year-old girl, Palestinian sources said.

Six others, including at least four fighters, were killed in air strikes and clashes.

---

The 12-year-old girl was killed by a single bullet to the head, local hospital workers said.

An Israeli army spokesman said a sniper had spotted an armed fighter and had fired at him but that the girl was killed as the armed man got out of the line of fire.

al Jazeera

[breakaleg]

1. How exactly does a sniper miss their target and hit a child in the head?

Doesn't sound like much of an accident to me.

[Behind the Aegis]

6. Sounds like a set-up to me.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bemildred]

15. See, the target was, uh, standing in front of the girl, sort of squatting down,

sort of hiding her from sniper, and put his head right in front of hers, and then, right when he heard the shot, he jumped out of the way, and uh, he gave her candy so she would be there, uh, see?

[Behind the Aegis]

17. Or...

He was in the sniper's sights, aiming for the heart, the target steps aside, and the bullet hits an unintended target. I guess there has never been a case of someone being shot accidentally by the military, police, or someone protecting their home.

[bemildred]

20. It is much simpler to think he hit what he aimed at.

That is what they get paid to do, and they have amazingly good aim.

[Behind the Aegis]

21. Accidents do occur. This wouldn't be the first time.

Do you also think that all incidents of "friendly fire" are 'bullshit' too?

[bemildred]

24. It is hardly the first time this sort of thing has occurred.

Remember the old "confirming the kill" story?

[Behind the Aegis]

27. Anything is possible, your sarcastic account and mine.

I also remember a variety of stories of the dead rising and walking, all while the cameras were rolling.

[bemildred]

28. And it is possible, and more likely, that he hit what he aimed at. nt

[Behind the Aegis]

30. And, it is possible, that you are doing nothing more than speculating.

[bemildred]

32. True, but so are you. nt

[Behind the Aegis]

35. Didn't say I wasn't.

[bemildred]

36. Me neither. nt

[Behind the Aegis]

38. Didn't say or imply any different.

[bemildred]

40. Just a couple days ago they shot some unarmed women dead.

Bang, down they went.

[Behind the Aegis]

42. Are you talking about the ones that were hiding militants?

[bemildred]

44. Those are the ones.

Just pointing out that it's a normal thing to shoot and kill unarmed females, knowing exactly what one is aiming at.

[Behind the Aegis]

45. Doesn't seem all that "normal."

Seems that situation was unusual. It was also at the behest of Hamas, yet somehow they are given a "free pass", despite their call to place unarmed women in the middle of fire-fight, including the fact that they too continued to fire.

[bemildred]

46. "Common" then. Occurs with some regularity.

Basically, if you think they are in the way, or for various other reasons, it's OK to shoot them.

[Behind the Aegis]

49. First, I am not with the IDF.

Second, are you excusing the use of human shields?

Third, what is the course of action the IDF should take when the militants are firing at them, all the while behind women or in holy places? Should the IDF "just suck it up?" Perhaps, they should 'dodge the bullets?'

[bemildred]

50. I'm trying to establish whether it's OK to shoot unarmed women or not.

So far, it appears to me that it is.

[Behind the Aegis]

51. I am trying to establish whether it is OK to use civilians as weapons.

So far, it appears it is OK.

As for shooting unarmed women, it is not OK. Hey, FWIW, it's not even OK to fire on unarmed MEN.

[bemildred]

53. Good. I'm glad we agree about shooting unarmed women.

It's not OK. That's what I think about it too.

[Behind the Aegis]

54. What about using civilians as "shields?"

Do we also agree that is wrong?

[bemildred]

57. You mean like hostages? Captives?

No, I'll bet you mean women that deliberately put themselves in harms way in the hope of saving their male relatives, who are cornered in a mosque. I admit it's a nasty business, but I do admire their courage, which is more than I can say for the guys that shot them.

In the case of hostages or captives, people who are not there of their own volition, that's a crime.

But those don't seem like the same thing to me.

[Behind the Aegis]

58. Interesting.

So calling on unarmed women to "protect" armed men is simply "nasty business." Interesting. Even more interesting, is that according to the Hamas charter, women are supposed to act in such a matter when called upon. Doesn't sound very voluntary to me. Sounds like a disregard for the lives they claim they are trying to protect.

[bemildred]

61. I am not here to defend the leadership of Hamas.

Or to defend the calling of these women into harms way.
Or the men hiding behind the women.
I'm saying you still should not shoot them.

[Behind the Aegis]

63. But they are the one who placed these women in harm's way.

Do you think either of those two women would have been shot without the call? And, how were the IDF to know that the women were not armed?

[bemildred]

66. You still should not shoot them. nt

[Behind the Aegis]

67. You still shouldn't ask unarmed persons into the middle of a fire-fight!

[bemildred]

69. No, I can't say much for that either.

But the one does not justify the other.

[Behind the Aegis]

73. And here we are...

...all these posts to say that we agree. Shooting unarmed people is wrong, as is using unarmed people as shields is wrong. At least that is how I am understanding your last message.

[bemildred]

76. It's been a pleasure talking with you. nt

[breakaleg]

71. bemildred: I think the term 'human shield' needs to be clarified a bit.

When that term is used, I think of hostages being held against their will and the assailant hiding behind them usually with a gun to their head.

This is not the same as women fighting for a cause and trying to protect their loved ones. I think that takes courage.

And even so, if the women are unarmed, they should NOT be shot, regardless of the situation. There has to be a line that a democratic nation refuses to cross. I think shooting unarmed women and children should be that line.

[bemildred]

75. That would be post #57.

I believe we are on the same page there.

[Tom Joad]

81. Get the fuck out of Gaza, end the siege, free the ports, open the borders

pay reparations, free the kidnapped Palestinians, begin the total evacuation of the West Bank...

[Behind the Aegis]

82. LOL!

It is JUST that simple! LOL!

[Behind the Aegis]

86. Whoops!

They already DID THAT! They got the FUCK out and got 1000's of missiles as repayment! So why in the FUCK would they clear the West Bank?

[razors edge]

47. Couple dead and more wounded is a free pass?

How many IDF troops were killed in the exchange?

The removal of the militants cost them in a way they were willing to pay.

I think the they will expand this tactic going forward.

[Behind the Aegis]

48. Looks like a free pass to me.

I have yet to see any "pro-Palestinian" poster decry the use of Palestinian women as human shields.

[razors edge]

68. Nor would you be likely to see

any poster denounce women from any group protecting their own.

[Behind the Aegis]

70. But that is not exactly what happened.

These women were not armed. They were being used as human shields. I find it interesting that the placing of civilians in harm's way is so excusable. Actually, it isn't as interesting as it is disgusting.

[breakaleg]

72. They were not being held hostage. No one placed them in harms way.

[Behind the Aegis]

74. They were placed in harm's way by choice.

It doesn't change the fact that they were unarmed, "protecting" armed militants, that ALSO continued to fire, despite their presence!

[razors edge]

79. More disgusting than

being killed of at a three to one ratio?

People will always try something new, they adapt.

They lost a couple of women who don't fight with arms, and saved those who do, probably a worth while sacrifice if you were on that side.

[Behind the Aegis]

83. So, it is all numbers to you.

So, why should anyone count the dead who willing threw themselves in front of bullets?

"They lost a couple of women who don't fight with arms, and saved those who do, probably a worth while sacrifice if you were on that side."

So a few dead women...well, the "price of freedom." How sad that the defenseless must protect those with arms.

As I read this thread, it seems I am one of the only ones to mourn the loss of innocent lives. The rest "approve of the defense of these BRAVE women."

The next time you hear of a "police shoot off" in your native country, PLEASE go running in front of the scene. Let us all know how that turns out!

[razors edge]

90. Do we really want to go back to

the comparisons of what it took for the country of Israel to come into existence verses what the resistance is doing now?

King David Hotel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing

Just numbers right?

People will do whatever it takes to get what they want. F**k the numbers.

The next time you hear of a "police shoot off" in your native country, PLEASE go running in front of the scene. Let us all know how that turns out!

I'll keep you informed, people confronting authority and giving their lives to preserve freedom is what this country was founded on, My oath to such upon entering the Marines in 1981 did not have an expiration date.

[IntiRaymi]

93. This we'll defend.

:patriot:

[razors edge]

94. Each to the best of their ability, semper fi.

[IntiRaymi]

101. At least you are not a squid. n.t.

[IntiRaymi]

87. Your creativity is amazing when you need to justify crap.

Time and time again, this is the case here.

[AlamoDemoc]

2. When will the world stop Israel and their crimes against humanity?

[LiberalArkie]

3. I think it will end when the Dems & Repubs stop accepting their money.

[Behind the Aegis]

5. huh?

Whose money?

[razors edge]

10. Our own money.

Recycled from AIPAC.

[Behind the Aegis]

11. That makes not a lick of sense.

So all money they receive is now recycled AIPAC money? :crazy:

[razors edge]

22. All, no, but the fact that a country that receives

more in foreign aid than any other then has enough just laying around, to be the second or third largest PAC doesn't set of any alarms for you, Right.

[Behind the Aegis]

25. Were it true.

AIPAC may be a large PAC, but it is small beans compared to the lobbying effort to hundreds of other groups that dwarf the money from AIPAC.

[razors edge]

31. I don't wish to

make any statements about the situation that I know are factually incorrect or assert something negative I read from an unreliable source, perhaps you could provide a chart showing the information in question so that it is not information you would consider suspect.

[Behind the Aegis]

37. There is a very good site that breaks down where all the money comes from..

...and to whom it goes. It is used here often. I can't recall the name of it, but I will look for it. It breaks down the money for every national politician, from every lobbying group and other large groups. It won't be as easy as you want, but a little looking around and you will see that money from AIPAC is small beans compared to AARP, NRA, and corporate groups.

On edit: This is the site: Open Secrets.

[razors edge]

52. I was thinking along the lines of a breakdown

of AIPAC related money


Pro-Israel PAC Contributions to 2004 Congressional Candidates
2003-2004 Career
State Office District Candidate Party Status Contributions Total Committees
Alabama S Shelby, Richard* R I 38,500 193,325 A(FO)
H 2 Everett, Terry R I 6,000 15,000 AS, I
H 3 Rogers, Michael R I 5,000 8,000 AS
H 4 Aderholt, Robert R I 2,000 13,500 A
H 5 Cramer, Bud D I 1,000 44,800 A, I
H 6 Bachus, Spencer R I 2,000 12,500
H 7 Davis, Artur D I 6,500 68,067 B
Alaska S Murkowski, Frank R N 1,000 65,000
S Knowles, Tony* D C 5,150 5,150
S Murkowski, Lisa* R I 34,600 34,600
S Stevens, Ted R I 1,000 68,200 A(D)
Arizona S Kyl, Jon R I 1,000 78,525
H 8 Kolbe, James R I -1,000 43,000 A(FO)
Arkansas S Lincoln, Blanche* D I 30,500 43,527
H 3 Delay, Robert R C 4,000 5,000
H 4 Ross, Michael D I 2,500 14,000
California S Boxer, Barbara* D I 73,000 223,794 C, FR(NE)
S Feinstein, Dianne D I 1,000 114,842 A(D), I
H 5 Matsui, Robert D I 4,000 8,150 W
H 8 Pelosi, Nancy D I 20,650 57,450 I
H 12 Lantos, Tom D I 31,600 107,250 IR
H 18 Cardoza, Dennis D I 0 16,000
H 20 Costa, Jim D C 1,000 1,000
H 27 Sherman, Brad D I 4,500 43,330 IR
H 29 Schiff, Adam D I 6,500 23,417 IR(NE)
H 30 Waxman, Henry D I 1,000 33,832
H 32 Murray, Kevin D C 2,000 5,000
H 33 Watson, Diane D I 2,000 7,500 IR
H 36 Harman, Jane D I 11,500 86,271 I
H 39 Sanchez, Linda D I 4,450 8,450
H 47 Sanchez, Loretta D I 2,000 36,700 AS
H 52 Hunter, Duncan R I 3,000 36,350 AS
H 53 Davis, Susan D I 1,500 8,163 AS
Colorado S Campbell, Ben Nighthorse* R N 7,000 92,750 A(FO)
H 2 Udall, Mark D I 1,500 11,250
Connecticut S Dodd, Christopher* D I 38,250 221,178 FR
S Lieberman, Joseph D I 1,250 227,758 AS
Connecticut H 2 Simmons, Robert R I 2,500 14,500 AS
H 3 DeLauro, Rosa D I 2,000 43,400 A, B
H 4 Shays, Christopher R I 5,500 10,850 B
Delaware S Carper, Thomas D I 1,000 16,500
Florida S Byrd, Johnnie* R O 5,000 5,000
S Deutsch, Peter*# D O 18,000 45,941
H 1 Miller, Jefferson R I 1,500 2,500 AS
H 3 Brown, Corrine D I 3,000 8,600
H 5 Brown-Waite, Ginny R I 800 2,300 B
H 8 Keller, Richard R I 1,500 5,000
H 11 Davis, James, III D I 500 3,600
H 12 Putnam, Adam R I 1,500 4,500 B
H 14 Mack, Connie R O 1,000 1,000
H 17 Meek, Kendrick D I 4,000 7,000 AS
H 18 Ros-Lehtinen, Ileana R I 36,000 73,490 IR
H 19 Wexler, Robert D I 1,500 11,500 IR
H 20 Schultz, Debbie Wasserman D C 2,500 2,500
H 21 Diaz-Balart, Lincoln R I 5,000 10,000
H 23 Hastings, Alcee D I 2,500 23,850 I
H 24 Feeney, Tom R I 1,000 1,000
Georgia S Chambliss, Saxby R I 18,500 27,500 AS, I
S Majette, Denise*# D O 5,000 57,000 B
H 3 Marshall, James D I 1,500 8,000 AS
H 5 Lewis, John D I 2,000 69,250 B, W
H 6 Price, Thomas R O 500 500
Hawaii S Inouye, Daniel* D I 25,750 200,925 A(D, FO), C
H 2 Case, Edward D I 1,000 2,000
Idaho S Crapo, Michael* R I 16,000 30,000 B
Illinois S Durbin, Richard D I 2,500 326,671 A(D, FO), I
S Obama, Barack* D O 2,500 2,500
H 2 Jackson, Jesse, Jr D I 2,000 3,500 A(FO)
H 5 Emmanuel, Rahm D I 3,000 13,500 B
H 9 Schakowsky, Janice D I 1,000 14,750
H 10 Kirk, Mark R I 17,500 42,068 A(FO)
H 11 Weller, Jerry R I 2,000 26,400 IR, W
H 14 Hastert, J. Dennis R I 18,500 80,850 House Speaker, I
H 15 Johnson, Timothy R I 1,500 4,500
H 17 Evans, Lane D I 5,000 87,379 AS
H 18 Bean, Melissa D C 1,000 1,000
Indiana S Bayh, Evan* D I 56,500 81,750 AS, I
H 2 Chocola, Chris R I 1,500 8,000
H 5 Burton, Dan R I 3,000 70,000 IR
H 9 Hill, Baron D I 1,000 9,465 AS
Iowa S Grassley, Charles* R I 32,000 139,823 B
H 3 Boswell, Leonard D I 3,500 19,575 I
Kansas S Brownback, Samuel* R I 50,850 95,350 A, C, FR(NE)
H 3 Moore, Dennis D I 4,500 26,176 B
Kentucky S Bunning, Jim* R I 32,900 74,750 B
H 4 Clooney, Nick D C 2,000 2,000
H 4 Lucas, Kenneth D I 1,000 11,000
H 4 Thoney, Roger R C 1,000 1,000
H 5 Rogers, Harold R I 7,500 7,500 A
H 6 Chandler, Ben D O 13,500 13,500
H 6 Kerr, Alice Forgy R O 1,000 1,000
H 6 Miller, Jonathan D O 1,000 1,000
Louisiana S Terrell, Suzanne Haik* R O 15,000 15,000
S Vitter, David*# R O 3,500 18,000 A(FO), B
H 1 Jindal, Bobby R O 1,500 1,500
H 5 Alexander, Rodney D I 2,000 7,500 AS
Maryland S Mikulski, Barbara* D I 36,000 166,599 A(FO), I
H 2 Ruppersberger, C.A. D I 2,500 8,750 I
H 4 Wynn, Albert D I 1,000 10,250
H 5 Hoyer, Steny D I 37,500 92,275 A
H 8 Van Hollen, Chris D I 1,000 4,000
Massachusetts S Kennedy, Edward D I 1,000 67,120 AS
H 1 Olver, John D I 1,000 19,500 A
H 7 Markey, Edward D I 1,000 6,250
Michigan H 3 Ferguson, John, Jr. D C 1,500 4,500
H 7 Smith, Bradley R O 250 250
H 8 Rogers, Michael R I 1,500 2,250
H 9 Knollenberg, Joseph R I 1,000 23,750 A(FO)
H 11 McCotter, Thaddeus R I 5,000 10,000 B, IR(NE)
H 12 Levin, Sander D I 3,200 113,727 W
Minnesota S Coleman, Norm R I 8,000 34,980 FR(NE)
S Wellstone, Paul (dec'd) DFL N -1,000 18,472
H 2 Luther, Bill DFL C 1,000 27,913
Missouri S Bond, Christopher* R I 17,000 149,200 A(D,FO), I
S Talent, James R I 1,000 12,500 AS
H 3 Carnahan, John D O 1,000 1,000
H 4 Skelton, Ike D I 1,000 65,450 AS
H 5 Metzl, Jamie D C 2,000 2,000
H 6 Graves, Sam, Jr. R I 1,500 5,000
H 7 Blunt, Roy R I 11,600 30,850
Montana H Rehberg, Dennis R I 1,500 1,500
Nevada S Reid, Harry* D I 64,999 318,801 A(D)
H 1 Berkley, Shelley D I 35,100 201,455 IR(NE)
New Jersey S Lautenberg, Frank D I -272 433,806 C
S Torricelli, Robert D N -3,000 163,052
H 1 Andrews, Robert D I 4,000 35,250
H 3 Saxton, H. James R I 11,000 71,900 AS
H 4 Smith, Christopher R I 7,000 51,750 IR
H 6 Pallone, Frank, Jr. D I 5,150 50,550
H 7 Ferguson, Mike R I 8,000 14,500
H 9 Rothman, Steven D I 8,500 42,503 A(FO)
H 10 Payne, Donald D I 500 21,750 IR
H 11 Frelinghuysen, Rodney R I 1,000 6,250 A(D)
H 13 Menendez, Robert D I 15,875 35,483 IR
New Mexico S Domenici, Pete R I 1,000 50,600 A(D), B
H 1 Wilson, Heather R I -1,000 15,500 AS
New York S Schumer, Charles* D I 24,000 56,635
H 1 Bishop, Timothy D I 1,000 2,000
H 2 Israel, Steve D I 8,000 17,000 AS
H 7 Crowley, Joseph D I 23,000 41,500 IR(NE)
H 8 Nadler, Jerrold D I 1,000 19,000
H 9 Weiner, Anthony D I 1,000 14,000
H 14 Maloney, Carolyn D I 4,500 22,000
H 17 Engel, Eliot D I 19,000 137,918 IR(NE)
H 18 Lowey, Nita D I 20,650 109,738 A(FO)
H 20 Sweeney, John R I 1,000 2,000 A
H 24 Boehlert, Sherwood R I 1,000 6,500 I
H 25 Walsh, James R I 1,000 15,550 A
North Carolina S Bowles, Erskine* D O 13,500 23,500
S Burr, Richard*# R O 7,000 8,250
S Dole, Elizabeth R I 1,000 26,000 AS
North Dakota S Conrad, Kent D I 5,250 201,939 B
S Dorgan, Byron* D I 30,750 131,850 A(D), C
Ohio S Voinovich, George* R I 27,000 37,500 FR(NE)
H 3 Turner, Michael R I 0 1,250 AS
H 11 Jones, Stephanie Tubbs D I 1,500 4,500 W
H 12 Harmon, Phillip Ind C 1,000 1,000
H 13 Brown, Sherrod D I 2,000 28,750 IR
Oklahoma S Carson, Brad*# D O 1,000 11,000
H 4 Cole, Tom R I 1,500 5,000 AS
Oregon S Wyden, Ronald* D I 55,000 255,562 B, C, I
H 1 Wu, David D I 5,500 22,427
Pennsylvania S Santorum, Richard R I 2,000 47,750
S Specter, Arlen* R I 80,350 461,973 A(D, FO)
S Hoeffel, Joseph*# D C 2,000 24,454 IR(NE)
S Schwartz, Allyson* D C 1,000 3,500
Pennsylvania H 2 Fattah, Chaka D I -5,000 1,500 A
H 6 Gerlach, Jim R I 2,500 2,700
H 10 Sherwood, Donald R I 1,000 2,250 A
H 11 Kanjorski, Paul D I 1,000 16,600
H 13 Torsella, Joseph D O 750 750
H 15 Dent, Charles R O 5,000 5,000
H 17 Holden, Tim D I 1,000 9,500
H 18 Murphy, Tim R I -1,000 1,000
Rhode Island H 1 Kennedy, Patrick D I 2,000 27,650 A
H 2 Langevin, James D I 3,000 10,500 AS
South Carolina S DeMint, James*# R O 1,000 1,000
S Tenenbaum, Inez Moore* D O 2,500 2,500
South Dakota S Daschle, Tom* D I 70,500 533,635 I
S Thune, John* R C 1,000 6,480
S Johnson, Tim D I 1,000 159,837 A(FO), B
H At-L. Herseth, Stephanie† D O 8,000 12,900
Tennessee H 3 Wamp, Zach R I 2,000 2,000 A
H 4 Davis, Lincoln D I 1,000 3,000
H 6 Gordon, Barton D I 500 56,400
H 9 Ford, Harold, Jr. D I 1,000 10,000 B
Texas H 1 Sandlin, Max D I 2,000 2,000 W
H 2 Lampson, Nicolas D I 2,000 18,506
H 7 Culberson, John R I 1,500 1,500 A
H 11 Edwards, Chet D I 5,500 18,350 A, B
H 17 Stenholm, Charlie D I 1,000 3,250
H 22 DeLay, Tom R I 23,000 81,050 A
H 23 Bonilla, Henry R I 1,000 5,000 A(D, FO)
H 24 Frost, Martin D I 31,300 165,414
H 25 Bell, R. Christopher D I 13,500 15,000 IR(NE)
H 25 Doggett, Lloyd D I 1,500 4,500 W
H 28 Rodriguez, Ciro D I 17,000 17,000 AS
H 32 Sessions, Pete R I 1,000 2,000
Utah S Bennett, Robert* R I 55,750 97,750 A(FO)
H 1 Bishop, Robert R I 1,500 2,500 AS
H 2 Matheson, James D I 4,500 19,000
Virginia S Allen, George R I 2,000 10,400 C, FR
H 3 Scott, Robert D I 1,000 1,500 B
H 4 Forbes, J. Randy R I 1,500 2,000 AS
H 7 Cantor, Eric R I 23,750 74,980 W
H 8 Hanley, Kate D C 250 250
H 8 Rosenberg, Andrew D C 1,250 1,250
H 11 Davis, Thomas R I 1,000 16,000
Washington S Murray, Patty* D I 72,495 146,293 A, B
H 2 Larsen, Richard D I 1,500 8,500 AS
H 5 Barbieri, Donald D O 2,000 2,000
H 6 Dicks, Norm D I 1,000 23,850 A(D)
H 8 Alben, Alex D C 1,000 1,000
H 9 Smith, D. Adam D I 1,000 8,075 AS, IR
West Virginia H 2 Capito, Shelley Moore R I 1,500 4,250
Wisconsin S Feingold, Russell* D I 29,500 123,310 B, FR
H 2 Baldwin, Tammy D I 1,000 4,000 B



PRESIDENT
Bush, George W. R I 29,000 37,200
Dean, Howard D C 5,000 6,000
Gephardt, Richard D C 1,000 173,295
Kerry, John D C 2,000 5,752
Lieberman, Joseph D C 12,000 239,758
Sharpton, Rev. Al D C 2,000 2,000
Specter, Arlen R N 2,000 463,973
sound about right?

[Behind the Aegis]

55. Compare it to their overall amount of contributions...

...then get back to me.

[razors edge]

56. Show me the comparisison

from your sources and we can all see for ourselves.

[Behind the Aegis]

60. That's your job.

I gave you the resources. I did it several months ago. It will take a little time, so I suggest focusing on just a few people and add up where their money comes from. You made the claim that AIPAC is the 2nd or 3rd most powerful group...prove it.

[razors edge]

77. That was just AIPAC

I listed, I'm sure there are more pacs of similar affiliation. From some cursory examination the "second or third" rankings are not correct. It was something I read that is not substantiated. My apologies, but the question still remains.

How does a country that receives more than any other in US foreign aid, have the available resources to lobby the US?

[AlamoDemoc]

13. WHO'S MONEY?

AIPAC is a lobbying group that is kept tightly confined to the cocktail party napkin world of Washington, DC.....it takes a napkin to shore up a vote.

[Behind the Aegis]

19. I am sure they are the only ones.

It is amazing the amount of mystical power attributed to AIPAC, perhaps they were actually set up by the all-powerful wizard, Rove. :eyes:

[cali]

85. What a stupid question.

One that is oft repeated here. Utterly mindless.

When has the world ever stopped crimes against humanity? What about the U.S. and its far worse crimes? How about that Sudan, huh? Oh, let's go back ten years to Rwanda. How about Cambodia? Afghanistan anyone?

Yes, the occupation is wrong, but the narrow prism through which some view Israel is passing strange. What Israel is doing and has done pales in comparison to the examples I listed, and yet if one only read the DU I/P forum, one would come away with the impression that Israel's occupation of Palestine was by far the evilist act of the last 50 years.

[IntiRaymi]

88. This happens to be the I/P forum.....

In case you forgot to read what the link you clicked on to get here....
...
...
...

Or could it be that you are simply telling people to shut up?

[Behind the Aegis]

4. No end in sight.

Not that the PA seem to care. Every civilian death is good for anti-Israeli sentiment and propaganda. Instead of getting civilians out of the way, they call for them to come into open areas of warfare. Hell, Hamas even has it in their charter.

[MrPrax]

7. You mean like 'national service'?

Israel has it in their 'charter'?

Every civilian death is good for anti-Israeli sentiment and propaganda. Yer really losing it, huh?

[Behind the Aegis]

8. You can't tell the difference between a solider and a civilian?

Calling for women to run into the middle of a fire-fight is not the same as having them serve as armed personnel.

[razors edge]

14. You know I've always wondered...

If somebody gave the Palestinians 20 billion or so in tanks, planes, and assorted small arms, would they still be terrorists?

Edit: if the women had armored D-9 Catapillars, they could have just rolled over any problem in their way, right?

[AlamoDemoc]

16. they will be our friends, of course

[razors edge]

41. Friends are good.

[Behind the Aegis]

18. I am sure they would do or attempt to do what they did in '48.

They would try to wipe Israel off the map, much to the delight of many.

[AlamoDemoc]

23. Wipe out Israel is that of Ahmadinijan misinterperitation....but HEY

use it against the occupying terrifies, just the same!

[Behind the Aegis]

29. It is in the charter of Hamas. Are you not familiar with it?

At least they are more honest in that respect than the president of Iran.

On edit: Left out "in"

[AlamoDemoc]

39. Your here because your anti-samistist.....

[Behind the Aegis]

43. That doesn't even make sense.

What is a "samistist?"

[razors edge]

33. Put down the pipe, and step back.

[razors edge]

26. Doesn't address the question

If they had a financially flush military, would that make them legitimate?

[Behind the Aegis]

34. Legitimate?

Possible, because they would be engaging another military. Then again, it would also depend on if they continued their current actions, attacking discos, school buses, malls, and pizza parlors.

[AlamoDemoc]

59. lol....I know it makes no sense,,,,ahahahahahahaha

[Behind the Aegis]

62. So why particpate in I/P if you are not going to make sense on purpose?

[razors edge]

64. Well I see your point.

Attacks on civilians, or locations that are reasonably suspected to comprise mainly a civilian populace, would remove all legitimacy from an attacking force.

On the same line of logic, use of munitions that are overwhelmingly shown to affect civilians, like cluster bombs (and old ones for that matter) would condemn a fighting force to the level of a terrorist organization as well.

Can't have it both ways.

[Behind the Aegis]

65. Very true...can't have it both ways.

Attacks on civilians or locations where they make up more of the population does make attacks illegitimate, with the exception of when one group takes up an offensive or defensive position in those areas, then a problem arises. You can't claim to be waging war, then do it from behind civilian "lines" only to complain when attacks are responded to.

[razors edge]

78. I'm not talking just about the attacks

as being legitimate, but the force in control of said attacks being labeled as this or that, terrorists, freedom fighters, protectors, stupid animals to be used as political pawns as some have put it.

We all know the US leads illegitimate attacks against poorly defended countries, its our calling card and it will be our damnation in the end.

It will not last forever. I don't understand why the Israeli government would link it's fortunes to an empire in decline.

[IntiRaymi]

89. I would like to ask you...what percentage of the israeli population

is a reservist in the IDF?

Oh yes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Defense_Forces

"National military service is compulsory for Jewish and Druze men, and Jewish women, over the age of 18, although exemptions may be made on religious, physical or psychological grounds (see Profile 21)."

Essentially, everyone serves.

Followed by:

"Following regular service, men may be called for reserve service of up to one month annually, until the age of 43-45 (reservists may volunteer after this age), and may be called for active duty immediately in times of crisis. In most cases, the reserve duty is carried out in the same unit for years, in many cases the same unit as the active service and by the same people. Many soldiers who have served together in active service continue to meet in reserve duty for years after their discharge, causing reserve duty to become a strong male bonding experience in Israeli society. A well-known Israeli joke refers to civilians as soldiers on 11-month furlough."

So, basically, when a palestinian 'terrorist' blows up some self absorbed yuppies having fun in a disco, he is targeting soldiers....on an 11 month furlough.

...

Back to a related topic:

When an IDF soldier/sniper/criminal shoots a 12 year old in the head, the psycophants here justify it in any which way possible. But the obvious, glaring reality of israeli society is somehow ignored when crying wolf about similar acts perpetrated by their desperate enemy.
Not to flame...but wouldn't it seem to you that most of israeli society would be valid targets by YOUR OWN RULES?

[pelsar]

91. you know so little......

So, basically, when a palestinian 'terrorist' blows up some self absorbed yuppies having fun in a disco, he is targeting soldiers....on an 11 month furlough.

to begin with few israeis do reserve service....most dont....so there goes the "funny joke"

and about 60-70% serve

and yes we are targets...always have been......all of us..just ask hamas, muslim brotherhood, hizballa, iran.....

[IntiRaymi]

92. So the wikipedia post is a lie?

Or did I misread?
But, the final statement is still valid - by the rules used for justifying the targeting of women and children in Palestine, you would also be justified in targeting women and children in Israel.
Let's all be fair, and nasty arguments should cease.

[pelsar]

95. yes...wikipedia is wrong....

israeli children and women have always been targeted.....since day 1....its the israeli fighters that do the self criticism, discuss legal and morally right, not the palestenain jihadnimikim, for them killing any and all israelis is not a problem.

try being honest as well.

[IntiRaymi]

96. And yet, the kids keep getting themselves killed.

Consider Lebanon. How many innocent bystanders died in that stupid campaign?
One soldier gets abducted, Israel goes on an insane rampage. What stupidity.

And what discussion of legality, morality, etc, etc did we see here?
ZERO, on the part of the "Israel - right or wrong" crowd.
In fact, I tangled with some in here that had pretended to equate the civilians in Lebanon with the Israeli aggresors, in terms of suffering. Nothing like a picture of a lebanese shopkeeper weeping over a crushed child, compared vis a vis with a traumatized IDF soldier to get the hypocrisy alarm bells screaming.
Recently, some 12 year old girl was shot dead by an israeli sniper, in Gaza:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x153143
If you follow the top thread, someone was sugesting that she was on wooden stilts, so that she would make a better target, in order to make Israel look bad. Can you see what I am getting at here?
This is the sort of crap that infuriates me about some in here.

On the topic of the Wiki-entry - go in and change it. You are an expert on the topic, so you could clarify something in there, add to it.

[Behind the Aegis]

97. get a grip.

"If you follow the top thread, someone was suggesting that she was on wooden stilts, so that she would make a better target, in order to make Israel look bad. Can you see what I am getting at here?"

Until your stupid remarks in another thread, I had no idea why that poster posted "stilts?" So, I did "word association" and said "wooden?" There was no implication that stilts were used expect by someone making a smartass remark. My response was speculation, mocking the speculation of the first poster. It seems that went right over your head! All your 'rage' is 'much ado about NOTHING.'

[IntiRaymi]

99. The reaction people had to your post was in an overall context

The reason it meant something is that this 'word association' was indicative of other things. For example: The stance that "the IDF can do no wrong," because to admit otherwise is to begin the slow, tortuous acceptance that the israeli side is not saintly, holy, or anything like it.

[pelsar]

98. legal, moral......

its pretty simple: neighboring countries/societies shouldnt threaten and or attack israel. I see no reason why I nor my relatives, etc should have to live under a constant threat of annihilation and/or attacks for the last 2,000 years.

why should iran have TV series that shows israeli doctors taking out and using palestenain organs? why should egypt make the movie the Protocols of zion....why should mein kampf be such a best seller in syria, why cant i as a jew visit saudi arbia, etc.

you say israel when "crazy" over the abduction of two soldiers.......your going to pass judgment on whos lives are worth more?

how does that work......

we have every moral right to defend ourselves as we deem fit. Egypt figured it out...dont try to kill israels and you get to live in peace even if you still have anti semetic/israeli material printed by their govt......and why do they have this?


Jordan figure it out....one day the palestenains might figure it out and their pseudo friends.....and the lebanese if they dont lose their country to Hizballa to iran also can live us in peace.

Its not hard: just accept as neighbors and stop tying to kill and kidnap us....we consider those acts of war.....and its our decision as to how we react.....and yes we do react. (the other way didnt prove to work so well)

[IntiRaymi]

100. And once again...

You are equating the wanton killing of lebanese civilians with other wholly unrelated things. It appears that your mind was easily purchased by Olmert's assertion that there were no innocent bystanders in Lebanon. A disgusting statement meant to excuse disgusting acts perpetrated by the IAF.
If world opinion turned against Israel in this latest venture it is because the truth is a natural thing - it is simple, and easy to recognize. Convolutions in logic will not work - 1000 word essays spelling out the minutiae of how Israel came about, of how 1967, 1973, et al. give Israel the right to do this or that, none of that trumps the immediacy of the here and now. Obviousness matters.
Or, if you want simple math: 1200+ lebanese paid with their lives for a kidnapped soldier. That this happened points at either irrationality or arrogance in Israel - and this is the message that gets out. I just happen to have the hypothesis that this irrationality and arrogance are quite likely a result of a racist outlook on things. We may discuss this hypothesis if you please.

[Tom Joad]

80. Previously from Beit Hanoun: Year 2004 Uprooting tens of thousands of trees

http://fromoccupiedpalestine.org/node.php?id=1380
Uprooted trees, razed houses... Israel leaves its calling card in Gaza
ERIC SILVER and SA'ID GHAZALI
Independent, 6 August 2004

Jerusalem -- The Palestinians of Beit Hanoun in the northern Gaza Strip began to count the cost of a month-long Israeli invasion as the troops finally pulled out yesterday, leaving a trail of anger, despair and devastation behind them.

More than 42,000 olive, citrus and date trees had been uprooted, according to the local council. Altogether, 4,405 acres of orchards, vineyards and vegetable fields were flattened.

Officials accused the army of demolishing 21 houses and damaging a further 314. Five factories and 19 wells were also destroyed. They said the loss could reach as high as £70m.

The Israelis said they went in to stop Hamas militants firing rockets at Sderot, a town of 24,000 across the border inside Israel. One salvo killed a three-year-old boy and a middle-aged man there five weeks ago. A house was damaged earlier this week, and two more rockets fell on open ground yesterday.

Before pulling out, the army distributed leaflets with a cartoon showing rockets bouncing back at Beit Hanoun. "Terror," it read, "will kill you."

Two weeks ago Hamas gunmen shot dead a youth whose family tried to stop them firing rockets from their backyard for fear of reprisals, but the blockade may yet rebound on Israel.

Basel al Masri, a farmer who lost an acre and a half of grape vines, said: "Everybody here agrees that the militants should not fire from a densely populated area. But after this massive destruction, the people of Beit Hanoun will tell them to come and fire rockets from the tops of our houses."

Abdullah Musleh estimated that it would cost $400,000 (£220,000) to rebuild his floor tile factory. "They have no justification for doing this," he said.

"It is deliberate destruction of our economy. They have destroyed everything, three automatic pressing machines, the offices, the cement containers, even the marble floors under the machines. My 15 workers will be unemployed."
_____________________________

And yet some people will blame Palestinians for their failed economy, while Beit Hanoun is under the jack-boot of a brutal occupation and siege.

[pelsar]

84. so answer the question...that you never have...

why when israel left gaza did the palestenains shoot and continued to shoot missles at israelis?....and in your view, should the israelis do nothing and let the missles land on sederots schools and houses?


seems some questions just can never be answered by some people.....i always wondered why that is.....