Palestinian women killed in Gaza mosque clash

[Tom Joad]

BEIT HANOUN, Gaza (Reuters) - Two Palestinian women acting as human shields between Israeli soldiers and Palestinian gunmen were killed on Friday during a stand-off at a Gaza mosque, before the 60 gunmen managed to escape.

The dramatic events came on the third day of an Israeli assault on the Gaza town of Beit Hanoun, the largest operation it has conducted in the Gaza Strip in months, designed to put a stop to militants firing homemade rockets into Israel.

The gunmen holed themselves up in the al-Nasir mosque on Thursday evening. On Friday, around 50 veiled Palestinian women, answering an appeal on local radio, marched toward the mosque, attempting to act as a shield against the Israeli troops.


Israeli forces opened fire toward the mosque and two of the women were killed. At least six others were wounded.
http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=newsOne&storyID=2006-11-03T113840Z_01_L12263400_RTRUKOC_0_US-MIDEAST.xml&pageNumber=0&imageid=&cap=&sz=13&WTModLoc=NewsArt-C1-ArticlePage2

____________________________

About Human Shields.
Much has been made of the immorality of women protecting other Palestinians lives. I think protecting someone else from harm,while putting yourself at risk, is called "courage".

I have not heard much about the Israeli use of "human Shields". The practice has been quite common. Using Palestinian civilians, involuntarily, to go to the homes of other Palestinians so that resisters would kill the Palestinian, or not fire at all.

Or, in the following case, terrorizing a captive child while preventing rocks to hit your military vehicle.

Inquiry After Israeli Forces Caught Using Boy as Shield
by Donald Macintyre in Jerusalem


A photograph of a Palestinian boy tied to an Israeli police jeep has been handed to justice officials charged with investigating complaints over the use of "human shields" against demonstrators.

The boy, 13-year-old Mohammed Bedwan, and three adult protesters were tied to border police vehicles last week during one of what have become almost daily demonstrations against the routing of the Israeli government's barrier through Palestinian land.


Activists claim Mohammed was tied to the jeep by police.
The photograph, taken by human rights activists in the village of Biddo, north-west of Jerusalem, shows Mohammed tied by an arm to a mesh on the jeep windscreen - a mesh intended to protect the vehicle and its driver against stones and rocks. Police said last night that the Justice Ministry's police complaints unit was investigating the case.
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0424-03.htm

The article notes they even used a Rabbi as a human shield.

[aquart]

1. Of course it takes courage to sit on a bus and blow yourself to bits.

No one has ever said that Palestinians lack courage. Is that your point? What is your point? That Palestinians are brave, believing that Israelis are too decent to fire on unarmed women.....and what a shock to find that faith misplaced? Or that Israelis are cowards because they force Palestinians to stand between them and bullets and rocks.....but what need would there be for fear if the Palestinians were also so decent they would not fire on unarmed hostages.....why, they should feel quite proud and confident, right? Being so brave and decent? And SAFE? Aren't they safe?

And I do appreciate the faith of the clerics in that mosque who, hiding themselves, sent women out to face the Israeli guns. Much like the woman who was sent out to face the mob in the Bible, don't you think? Was that in Sodom or Gomorrah?

What is your point again? Human shields are courageous. Human shields are wrong. Human shields are.....?

I applaud the brave Palestinian men who hid behind their unarmed women.

[breakaleg]

2. I think the point is that a human shield is someone standing between

you and your enemy by force or coercion - as in the boy tied to the truck, or a person held by gunpoint.

And in this case, calling unarmed female civilians who came out to defend their loved ones human shields, in incorrect.

[Tom Joad]

3. Forcing a child on an army jeep is kidnapping, and typical IDF

behavior.

[Tom Joad]

4. Taking people's land, crops, destroying their homes, takes some guts too.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pelsar]

7. 1941-1945....

our relatives.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cali]

14. First of all,

let me say that I'm shocked that my comment was deleted- and utterly disgusted. Compared to many, many comments in this forum, mine was not even remotely offensive. Heck, why bother comparing it to anything: It was not a comment that deserved to be deleted. What's wrong with this forum that such a comment was made. Now, to why I made that comment: You didn't refer to the IDF, or the government, you referred to all Israelis. You may not have meant to, but you did, and I see such a slip as illuminating. I really do think the hatred of Israel that so many here display in post after post after post, is repugnant, Tom. And I think that there is bias in this forum that's disturbing. It's one of the reasons this forum has become virtually moribund in recent months. I say this as someone who has criticized Israeli policy repeatedly, though I've stayed far away from the bilious.

I am very close to simply not engaging here anymore. I/P is becoming an echo chamber, not a place for debate.

[Lithos]

18. Check your inbox

Lithos

[Igel]

12. Obviously they do,

otherwise there'd have been a lot more women killed. And the stalwart defenders of Muslim and Palestinian manhood that called for unarmed women to defend them would have had a rougher go of it.

Or are the folks in the IDF really, really horrible shots? (In which case I'm sure they have hand grenades.)

I think I'd argue that Hamas has either a better appreciation for the IDF's sense of morality than many here do, or a much deeper well of cynicism. Or both. They apparently assumed that unarmed women *would* be an effective defense for their armed militants (and they were right, the men got away while the women nominally under the protection of their "guardians" were shot). Moreover, they assumed that if the IDF did shoot the unarmed civilians participating in a battle they would be excoriated (and, again, they were mostly right).

Had it been a fight in which Fatah had the Hamas guys holed up in a mosque (or vice-versa) no one would have wasted their time calling their women. On the one hand, the women would have mostly been slaughtered. On the other hand, pretty much nobody (except some Westerners) would have cared one whit. If there's no benefit to human sacrifice, why make it? (Since there *is* a benefit, we are guaranteed more of it.)

[pelsar]

8. consequences for one actions...

there is a western concept that understands that actions cause reaction and that we are responsable for our actions.

were now going to follow a simple line of logic that both the palestenians and israeli recognize...but many here do not. so perhaps consider this a cultural lesson.

The palestenian women walked in the middle of a firefight to save their men...who as far as I understand, even while the jihadnikim, where firing on the israelis the women placed themselves in between, so that when the israelis fired, they would be hit.

lets just say the israelis stopped firing...and the palestenains continued, while the women stayed in place. That lesson would be very clear to the palestenains. Women can be used for cover while attacking israelis.

the obvious next step would be for the kassam launchers to bring in some women to sit with them while the set up an launch....it would after all be the same thing....lets take it a step further...also a natural step. The kassam launchers instead of rushing their launches would shoot one, adjust their aim according to the spotter on the roof and shoot some more....as long as the palestenian women are "having a picnic" next to the kassams, the IDF will not shoot:

end result: dead israeli citizens, no dead palestenians.....

This may be acceptable to some here, but not to me. I just think the palestenians might have a better future if they stop trying to kill israelis....but hey, thats just me

[Tom Joad]

10. Why no mention of the child on the jeep?

[pelsar]

11. why no mention of the child?

because i think the soldiers who did it should be in jail.....and can easily condem them for it...but that was not the subject that i was writing about.

but its an interesting question you asked and i answered. You will notice as others do here, that i can and do answer any and all questions put to me...directly without avoiding them..and if i'm misunderstood i have no problem in explaining again.

others here....cant seem to answer direct questions....the reasons why i can only guess at, but i suspect because they dont want to get in to positions that they cannot defend..but i'm only guessing

tell you what..back up a few posts....to my no 8..and comment on it...we can go from there as well, but do try to answer directly, i'll probably have lots more questions.

[Igel]

13. The boy-tied-to-the-jeep incident is intriguing.

I can't think of a better word for it, and intend for that word to be neutral.

I'll look forward to hearing the results of the investigation. The picture doesn't look quite right. Boy, no visible hobbles, hands free, stationary jeep, with a handkerchief holding him there. That doesn't mean the claim isn't true; just that I'm not rushing to judgment.

(I must say the entire I/P conflict has been intriguing: So many odd arguments crucially based on silence, so many moral conundrums that even the most complete dataset doesn't entirely resolve.)

[eyl]

15. There doesn't seem to be any follow-up

anywhere which leads me to believe they were either convicted or the charges proved groundless - otherwise, one side or another would have trumpeted the investigation's outcome by now (the incident was two or three years ago).

[Igel]

19. I tried a google search.

A bit o' blather, but nothing more informative than the link in the OP. A couple of hits referred to his being tied up, but omitted the 'human shield' aspect.

I'm unconvinced; no results wouldn't be announced prominently, punishment would have been.

I assume there was an DU post in April/May '04 when this happened; I wasn't a DUer then, and it went completely under my radar.

[pelsar]

16. we've had palestenains on our jeeps...

during intifada I, palestenian square, gaza city...to be exact. Given that our jeeps had no place to put the "stone throwers" that we caught, we put them on the hood...and drove slowly back to base....hands untied (incase they fell off).

guess that makes me guilty of something or other....

[Scurrilous]

17. From the archives:

Inquiry after Israeli forces caught using boy as shield

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=66888

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=66815

[Tom Joad]

20. If it weren't for human rights activists operating in the West Bank,

this inquiry would never have happened. It was forced on the IDF.
No one (or hardly anyone) in the IDF would have openly questioned this behavior. It happened because of the indisputable truth told by the camera and the witness.

No wonder the IDF despises human rights activists. No wonder human rights activists are the target of all sorts of libel. No wonder human rights activists are physically threatened by the IDF.
No wonder human rights activists are sometimes killed.