Dems' Wins in U.S. Races Concern Israel

[ECH1969]

Israelis are worried the Democratic power swing in Washington curbing President Bush's power will lead to less decisive action on Iran's nuclear ambitions, which they consider an imminent threat.

Most Israelis also see Bush as a strong ally against Iran's hard-line president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who has said repeatedly that Israel should be destroyed. Israel sees itself as the primary target of a nuclear-armed Iran.

"Most Israelis understand that the Israeli interests, at this point, rest on future decisive statesmanship and decisive action in relation to the nuclear threat of Iran," said Menahem Blondheim of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem.

"Some Israelis are worried about the notion that the Democrats tend to be oriented toward multilateral diplomacy.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/11/08/D8L92G300.html

God forbid

[AlCzervik]

1. God forbid there should be "multilateral diplomacy"

:sarcasm:

[Thickasabrick]

25. Thank you.....I was just saying that in my head when I noticed your

post. What is wrong with these people?

[TexasLawyer]

73. and God forbid Israel should fight its own battles

We're a little bit busy right now.

[Sequoia]

2. Take your ball and go home.

[liberal N proud]

3. So now they going to throw Semitic fears into it?

[jpgray]

4. 87% of the Jewish vote went Democratic

:shrug:

[anotherdrew]

14. maybe, just maybe Iran really does just want peaceful use of nuke power?

Last I saw Russia was offering to do the enrichment and Iran was fine with that.

failing that...

Israel has a retaliation capability, MAD can work for them as it did for the rest of the world.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lurking Dem]

48. And 12% of African Americans!

'Fer fuck's sake!

[Phx_Dem]

60. democracy not to your liking?

[Megahurtz]

5. Isreal needs to take care of their own shit

and quit expecting us to coddle your ass. :grr:

[bluestateguy]

6. Most Jewish Americans voted Democrat

nt

[AlCzervik]

7. this jewish american sure did!

[Lone_Star_Dem]

10. Yes, something like 87% is what I read

It doesn't appear to me that those voters share these fears. It's important to remember that "some" doesn't mean all or even most.

[wholetruth00]

8. It's time for Israeli citizens to step up and change their own government.

Surely, they must see now that US financial and weapons support is not as sure a thing as in the past. Also, I am sure that Israeli citizens, just as Palestinains, want to just live and be safe and be able to earn a living. Israel's only hope is to make their own "regime change."

[Phx_Dem]

11. It's time for Palestinians to step up

and negotiate in good faith.

[wholetruth00]

15. I agree. But they need an honest partner with which to negotiate.

[Phx_Dem]

19. The GOIs stated goal is a two-state solution

Israel has been committed to a peaceful two-state solution for a very long time, unfortunately that view is not shared by the Pals.

[wholetruth00]

22. I think the Pal want a contiguous state, not swiss cheese land plots.

But you know, all this stuff probably belongs in the I/P forum.

Peace!

[IntiRaymi]

101. Also known as Bantustans. n.t.

[Behind the Aegis]

102. Only in propaganda circles.

[IntiRaymi]

103. The name fits quite well.

[Behind the Aegis]

104. Not really.

If someone really understands what apartheid is, then the use falls short.

[IntiRaymi]

105. Yes Really.

Herd them into camps, and let them rot in there.
Check out the IDF security Zones:
http://www.npr.org/programs/atc/features/2005/feb/mideast_special/gaza_map.pdf

[Behind the Aegis]

106. It is not the same.

I think you know that, but perhaps you don't. I wouldn't be surprised either way.

[IntiRaymi]

107. Will you look at the map, and quit putting up a wall?

[Behind the Aegis]

108. No wall...

I am very familiar with the layout of the area. Do you think Palestine will be the only nation not united in a single border?

[IntiRaymi]

109. Here is a map of the West Bank Wall...

http://www.passia.org/images/pal_facts_MAPS/WallWeb/pages/FSpstateorPS14.htm

[Behind the Aegis]

110. Oh...you were talking about the actual "wall."

I thought you were speaking metaphorically. I am also familiar with the Separation Barrier. Perhaps, after negotiations, it will no longer be needed, until then, it is. It has nothing to do with "Bantustans" as that is nothing more than charged propaganda and a lazy attempt to compare the situation in Israel with that of South Africa.

[IntiRaymi]

111. No, I was talking in both senses, at the same time.

Your wall, and that wall. Both of them.
That wall's existence is justified on fraudulent grounds. The metaphorical wall is what you need in propping up the fraud. If you bothered to look at the Gaza map, you will see all major palestinian locales isolated from each other by 'IDF Security Zones.'
That is a bantustan.

[Behind the Aegis]

112. Oh, I see.

The wall's existence is justified, it is only unjustified in that it was needed. You didn't provide a map of Gaza. The only "fraud" here is the constant droning of the false comparison to South African Apartheid. It is as fraudulent as those that compare the occupation of Iraq with the occupation of the West Bank.

[IntiRaymi]

113. What could you possibly see past that wall?

I posted the map here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=153636&mesg_id=153999

The bantustans were an effort by South Africa's white government to commit ethnic cleansing, to round up certain races, and to throw them into some internal zone, where they would live in squalor.

[Behind the Aegis]

114. A map from February 2005...

That is not what Gaza looks like now, is it?

The only "ethnic cleansing" that took place in Gaza was of Jews. I am glad you know what a bantustan is. Perhaps now you can understand how Gaza is not one, nor is the West Bank. Unlike South Africa, Israel is not intending of making Gaza nor all of the West Bank into Israeli property. Both are to be run, eventually, by a Palestinian government. That is where the South African Apartheid analogy falls flat on its face.

[IntiRaymi]

115. Well, in a far off distant future...

Everything is hunky dory, now isn't it?

[Behind the Aegis]

116. Did I say, or even imply everything was "hunky dory?" Nope!

I guess a strawman is better than nothing.

[IntiRaymi]

119. So when does later become never?

For the palestinians?

[Behind the Aegis]

120. When time ends.

Look how long Jews had to wait for a homeland.

[IntiRaymi]

121. Well, I suppose the world should balkanize.

With big tall walls separating one group from the other. That is the end state of the world.

[Behind the Aegis]

122. Seems walls are popping up all over...

China/NK, Pakistan/Afghanistan, NK/SK....what's one more?

[Lurking Dem]

123. You left out

Saudi Arabia/Yemen

[The Stranger]

28. Then STOP THE SETTLEMENTS.

What the GOI says and does are remarkably different things.

[Phx_Dem]

31. settlements are being evacuated

link:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3324617,00.html

[The Stranger]

59. Israel Begins New Settlement Push

Israel begins new settlement push

Last Updated: Monday, 4 September 2006, 11:23 GMT 12:23 UK

The Israeli government says it plans to build 700 new homes in two settlement blocs in the occupied West Bank.

Adverts published in Israeli newspapers invite bids for work in Maale Adumim just outside east Jerusalem and Beitar Illit to the south, near Bethlehem.

It is the biggest expansion of Jewish settlements to be announced since the government came to office in May.

Palestinians see such moves as an obstacle to peace and the creation of an independent Palestinian state.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5312084.stm

[FarrenH]

64. Settlements being evacuated? Still Apartheid

The article you linked to only discusses illegal settlements. Even with the legal settlements, military camps, Israeli roadblocks and other impositions, the West Bank remains indistinguishable from an Apartheid Bantustan in every respect, as it has been for 30 years. Take it from someone who saw Apartheid first hand. What's worse is that most Apartheid Bantustans were bigger than the whole of Israel. The West Bank is smaller than our smallist province, which is basically Johannesburg and environs (think NY state).

[IntiRaymi]

53. It's time for Israeli citizens to step up and change their own government.

And to stop interfering with ours.

[0rganism]

9. Sorry, Ariel, we won't be your warbitch

Of course, Bush could still drop a few large bombs and soften the place up for your boys, if you want to waste some life anyway.

[madmom]

12. so why can't israel fight their own battles?

[IntiRaymi]

55. Because they can't. That simple. n.t.

[geek tragedy]

13. So much for the Zionists controlling our government.

So sorry that the Likudnik/Kadima alliance with our Dominionists didn't pan out--hard to see that coming.

[Malva Zebrina]

16. You know, I am so concerned about the United States of America

and righting the wrongs that have been inflicted upon it by George Bush and the neo cons, that I cannot find the space to feel sorry for Israel or to be alarmed at it's position to the point where I must think that we would sacrifice our own children to it's defense. It's defense is nothing but a killing field at this point and sorry, it must develop a policy of it's own to hold on to it's tribal territory and not try to expand that legal territory to lands that supposedly were "given" to it by the god of Israel. Too old, too didactic, and too demanding of United States citizens, both morally and financially. It is a country--yes--but my country comes first and I am sick and tired of the burden of Israel foisted upon my back and my money.

[Dulcinea]

29. We have a winner! ding*ding*

That's the best post I've read in quite a while.

We have our own problems at home. Why do we have to bankroll Israel too?

[Phx_Dem]

42. 2.3 bil a year is hardly bankrolling Israel

We give almost as much to Egypt, and for what?

[Lurking Dem]

17. I think most of this article is bullshit.

No numbers. No citations. No poll with attending data.

The Democratic Party has an actual plank in their platform devoted to support of Israel. The Republicans do not.

[Phx_Dem]

20. ditto. nt

[zbdent]

18. But doesn't Israel have nukes, too?

Why don't they go on "Mutually Assured Destruction", like the cold war?

[primavera]

21. They're probably nervous we'll shut off the supply of arms...

... they need to bomb civilians. How are they going to missile refugee camps from the air if we stop furnishing them with F-18s and Hellfire missiles?

[Phx_Dem]

24. IAF does not use F-18s. nt

[primavera]

30. Excuse me, F-15s and F16s

Specifically, the now-Boeing but formerly McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle, series A, B, C, D, and I; and the Lockheed F-16 series A, B, C, D, and I. Happy?

[Phx_Dem]

33. Yes I am--hopefully Israel will get some shiny new F-22s soon!

nt.

[primavera]

35. Hopefully not if they're going to be abused

I know no one ever pays attention to the fine print on the contracts, but Israel is expressly prohibited from using the military aid it receives from the US for any purpose other than defense. So, if you're hoping Israel will get F-22s to defend itself, then I'm right with you. If you're hoping Israel gets shiny new planes to be better able to pre-emptively strafe civilians you think might be terrorists, then I hope a change in Congress results in closer oversight of Israeli compliance with the terms of its receipt of US military aid.

[Phx_Dem]

40. I'm with you KJ

Though I suspect that we might disagree about what legitimate "defense" is.

You know that Israel spends over 10 bil a year for defense, and will receive 2.3 bil this year from the US, so the large majority of revenue Israel spends on defense comes from their own pocket.

[primavera]

52. It's a bloody hard point to pin down alright

God knows there are no black and white easy answers in a situation as bafflingly complex and challenging as Israel's foreign relations with its rather less than friendly neighbors. That in mind, Israel has my whole hearted sympathy and support... right up to the point where they decide that the indisputed challenges they face justify themselves stooping to the level of terrorists and adopting equally reprehensible tactics in the name of self-defense. Self-defense gives license, but not total carte blanche.

[Canuckistanian]

43. EVERY invader claims "defense"

So it's a meaningless clause, IMO.

[PrgressiveJ]

77. Yo think the Party ,you just voted in,would ever do that?

I do not think the Democratic party would ever do that,they are great friends and supporters of The Jewish State, thank you very much.





:bounce:

[Lexingtonian]

23. Yeah, less American support for Israeli right wing extremism

and colonial behavior toward Palestinians. Less Great Power political gamesmanship in the Middle East and less reliance on violence.

I just don't see the downside. Then again, I don't subscribe to the paranoid delusions the Likudnik sorts are always trying to create and heighten.

[AIJ Alom]

26. We've moderated our views Israel, how about you moderate yours.

Try coming back to the center. It works wonders for peace.

[jonnyblitz]

27. perhaps they should find a new country to be their sugar daddy.

eom.

[PrgressiveJ]

78. `Throw the Jewish State Down the well`` ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1xXERFt_Zg

[Anarcho-Socialist]

88. Thanks for taking a stand on anti-Israeli, anti-Semitic bigotry

Cohen's character is great at highlighting anti-Semitic groupthink.

[MrPrax]

92. Well that explains...

the racism in Sasha Cohen's schtick -- but while we are on the subject...Borat's sexist misogynist is highlighting *what* groupthink again?

The people who think it's funny are *what*?...taking a tough stand on womens' rights are they?
Are the kids spilling out from the suburban multiplexes with the battle cry: "A People United, will never be defeated" are they? Perhaps maybe a renewed committment to cause of diversity and cultural understanding? No doubt, folks that enjoyed his schtick in Talledega Nights received an enlightened insight into the France and it's culture.

So this comedian, Ari Shaffir, is highlighting *some* groupthink in his videos also? You can check it out at his own site: http://www.theamazingracist.net

Here is a link to a page that has the Amazing Racist's powerful indictment of the "Mexican" groupthink windowed. (The Youtube links require log in)

Funny stuff, huh?

I know I know...we are just to TAKE Mr. Cohen's sincerely that he and his audience are actually battling racist attitudes, not perpetuating them with immigrant stereotypes that makes the British YOB roll with laughter at old Johnny Foreigner/Ali G aping 'brit culture' in some futile attempt to assimilate.

It's consciousness raising and who best to explore these issues in big budget movies.

Funny Stuff...a jewish guy pretending to be a muslim (for laughs) in a country that is at world with a bunch of muslims nations...funny stuff

[Anarcho-Socialist]

93. Oh, so you don't like him, or find him funny

Each to his/her own.

[MrPrax]

95. Which one? LOL

[Anarcho-Socialist]

96. Borat

I'm not familiar with the other one you mentioned.

[MrPrax]

97. Oh you should...

It's not like you don't have the links?

It's OK -- The Amazing Racist is mainstream...very popular. You know if the guy is calling himself, "The Amazing Racist", then he is being IRONIC, so you can laugh and think your better than all the racist 'bubba' who might also have a computer or might also have ten bucks to spend on a movie.

It's very fashionable, so you won't feel out of place with your peers. You know, it's when Gangsta call women bitches and hos -- they aren't being sexist, they are challenging our complacent attitudes towards both sex and race!!!

Quite edgy and hip -- they have been on the out reaches of cable television. The guy even caught the attention of IBM who featured the Amazing Racist's in one of their commercials.

Ground-breaking stuff....just like Borat...er I mean Yakov

"In the Soviet Union, we have no prostitution. Russian women have trouble giving it away." (drum roll)
"Russian women: At 20, they look 40. At 40, they look 60. At 60—don't look." (drum roll)



Borat is very innovative!



Borat is Quite an original!



When I was anarch0 back in the 80s, the only people who like comedy like Yakov were squares -- I guess anarch0-(fill in the blank) these days have gone beyond petty generalizations and have accepted the truth of Hollywood cinema.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

98. I don't see the problem

To me it shows how idiotic those racist misogynist homophobic attitudes are. I think we can laugh at those idiots who espouse those views. If you don't get the joke, then that's OK a lot more people do get the joke. If we take Borat as an example, people who like the show/movie don't watch Borat because they agree with the character's views, most likely the opposite is true. They want to see racists humiliated on the screen.

I have no idea what you refer to by "anarch0".

It's very fashionable, so you won't feel out of place with your peers. You know, it's when Gangsta call women bitches and hos -- they aren't being sexist, they are challenging our complacent attitudes towards both sex and race!!!

I don't believe that. I don't think there is much attempt on the part of gangsta rappers to hold the pretense of that.

[Name removed]

124. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[xchrom]

32. some israelis? what 3 or 4?

this is just another democratic party bad, republick party good hit piece and that's all.

[Behind the Aegis]

34. If you are going to editorialize...

What a bullshit way to post this article! You snipped it all to hell to fit the title, as opposed to posting the first 4 paragraphs. So....

Still, Israelis interviewed Wednesday said they don't think the U.S. election results _ giving Democrats control of the House and erasing the Republicans' Senate majority _ will diminish American support for Israel.

Still, many Israelis were not overly concerned.

"I think support for Israel is quite entrenched, and Israelis should not fear any deterioration in Israeli-American relations," said Efraim Inbar, director of the Begin-Sadat Center for Strategic Studies at Bar-Ilan University. "We have a long history. We shouldn't panic."

Rami Bengur, 58, who owns a video store in Jerusalem, agreed.

"I believe in the Democratic Party or the Republican Party _ they're both from a democracy," he said. "This country is very important for them. From my point of view, they will do anything to protect Israel, no matter which party."

Others said it was too early to judge the elections' ramifications for Israel.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Behind the Aegis]

37. Did you read the article?

Or did you read just what was posted?

[Lurking Dem]

38. And of course they are more beholden to Israel

than to the U.S., right? :eyes:

[GreenArrow]

41. you tell me.

.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[GreenArrow]

47. non sequitur

and an ad hominem.

[Behind the Aegis]

49. all most as much so as the "Dual citizen Jew" meme.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Behind the Aegis]

56. Boy, you are reaching....

"It appears that you believe such a thing is categorically impossible."

I have made no such statement, and you, therefore, have drawn a conclusion based on nothing.

"Whether or not Lieberman and Emmanuel fit the bill or not, there are such things as moles."

One has nothing to do with the other. You are making your assertion based on their religion, nothing more. That is called bigotry.

[IntiRaymi]

58. It is not necessarily bigotry.

Let's keep things on a strict course of logic, ok?

[Behind the Aegis]

62. Assigning action based on religion, without action, is bigotry.

[IntiRaymi]

67. Clarify, please. n.t.

[Behind the Aegis]

68. Simply...

Following a man in the store because he may rob you. You follow him, not because of his history, but the color of his skin. That is racism.

Strip searching Arab-looking people at airports, not because they made a threat, but because they are Arab or Muslim and may be a terrorist. That is anti-Arab racism/Islamaphobia.

Firing a gay person, not because of convictions of sexual assault, but because he may be a child molester. That is homophobia.

Saying a person from the South, who happens to well-educated, must have been educated anywhere but the American South. That is regionalism.

Saying that two powerful members of the Congress are more loyal to Israel than the US, not based on actions or proof, but based on their Judaism. That is anti-Semitism.

All five of the aforementioned are examples of bigotry.

[IntiRaymi]

70. I may object to the last statement.

People arrive at positions of power with agendas. It is a fact of life, and it is stupid to think otherwise.
The fact that the USA "enjoys a special relationship with Israel" brings the issue of agendas to the fore, so it is not an act of bigotry to presume dual loyalties. Dual loyalties happen, and are not a rare ocurrence.
Joe Lieberman? I don't think so.
Rahm Emmanuel, yes.

A succesful politician is not the same thing as Joe Random, who was the victim of the various phobias in the first 4 of your 5 examples.

I would like to ask you something - upon entry in the IDF, what type of Oath of Service is made by its members?

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IntiRaymi]

74. I investigated something you did not.

Rahm Emmanuel served in the IDF, and did the Oath of Allegiance to the State of Israel.
So, he is either breaking that oath, or he has dual loyalties.
This has been raised before, concerning him.

[Behind the Aegis]

81. Wrong.

Rahm Emmanuel was not a member of IDF. He worked as a civilian volunteer. Furthermore, he surrendered his Israeli passport after turning 18, and while thinking of Israel often, is an American citizen first.

[IntiRaymi]

84. Thanks for doing my homework for me. n.t.

[Behind the Aegis]

86. Someone has to do it. n/t

[GreenArrow]

66. it's not bigoted at all

Geez, I oughta know better and steer clear of these sorts of threads.

[Behind the Aegis]

69. Saying Jews are more loyal to Israel than the US...

...is an OLD anti-Semitic canard that has been used for centuries! (Substitute "US" for any country.)

[MrPrax]

118. Are you sure?

Then why is Ha'aretz bragging about Jew Power? With a picture of Joe Momentum?

Number of Jewish lawmakers worldwide reaches record high

Tuesday's U.S. elections brought the number of Jewish parliamentarians worldwide to an all-time high, according to the International Council of Jewish Parliamentarians.

Following yesterday's results, the number of Jews in the Senate rose from 11 to 13 and in the House of Representatives from 26 to 30. However, the United States is still only in third place worldwide for the number of Jewish legislators, after Israel and Britain.

Britain, despite having a Jewish community 20 times smaller than that of the United States, has 59 Jewish members of parliament, including 18 in the House of Commons and 41 in the House of Lords. The latter number includes seven barons whose seats in the house were hereditary until recently. However, the umbrella organization of British Jewry said that in fact, the number of Jews in the House of Lords is even higher, totaling at least 46.

...

The director of the World Jewish Congress's Israel office, Bobby Brown, said the data reflects Jews' growing success in integrating into the countries where they live. Brown, who coordinates the ICJP's work in Israel, also noted that in recent years, cooperation among Jewish legislators worldwide has increased.

Haaretz

Can't you just feel the enthusiasm in the article? ;-)

Now as far as loyalties go, I will leave to others to decide such questions, as to gaging loyalties is actually part and parcel of LEGITIMATE political deliberation....even on mundane matters as to deciding whether or not a local politician is MORE loyal to his state or more LOYAL to the politics of the beltway. But to even suggest 'loyalty' and 'jewish' in the same sentence will usually get you smeared as someone as doing little more than 'channeling' Russian Tsars and 16th Catholic dogma regardless of how many times you apply the SAME standard to any other interest group.

Of course, I don't think there is much contest with loyalty when someone with dual citizenship, perhaps registered with the dept. of hasbera as an agent, regularly attends private meetings with high-ranking officials in Israel without disclosure, and generally has lived there entire life doing little more than support the claims, economic interests and nationhood of Israel, that given a choice between actual loyalty to a 3500 year old religious cult or a 130 year old former British colony, which one they will choose.

But you would have us believe otherwise?

[Lurking Dem]

50. You used the classic canard

of dual agency.

It's up to you to now support your bigotted point.

[GreenArrow]

65. yes, of course, you're right. It must be a "canard".

Such a thing as "dual agency" is strictly impossible. Unthinkable. Never happens.

[IntiRaymi]

57. Get used to it. Godwin's Law permeates everything. Vast Experience here.

[Lurking Dem]

72. Yeah.

Pointing out classic bigotry is always wrong.

[IntiRaymi]

75. Not if it is used as a pure tool of rhetorics.

In this case, the old antisemitic accusation is used to become the king of the mound in here.

[bemildred]

76. I thought it was projection.

He never said that they had dual loyalties. What he said could be interpreted in various ways, but the most straightforward one (IMHO) is that they are strong supporters of Israel, which they are.

[Lithos]

79. People, the issue is this.

(My apologies to Bemildred, I'm hijacking his post this is intended to all).

The issue is this, and it's clearly spelled out in the I/P guidelines. Sensitivity must be taken when using very inflammatory words/terminology. The issue of dual agency is such a case as it is indeed a well known mechanism of anti-Semites. I have a hard time understanding how anyone with more than a passing knowledge of either Judaism, European History, or the I/P situation would not know this. Same with many other loaded memes.

What was said definitely could be considered to have multiple meanings, but from my perspective, such unqualified statements as these where the callout is to Senator Lieberman, the common usage is an implication his support of Israel is based on his religion. Even if I were to accept there was another primary meaning, the fact remains that there are secondary meanings and thus requiring qualification.

Now to talk about the bigger picture of casually throwing around accusations such as this. It is very frustrating to see people throw around highly charged language and claims so casually then watch as the debate turns into lawyeresque nit picking extremely specific points and hypotheticals. To be so erudite after the fact demonstrates a knowledge of the subject that should have been displayed originally.

Lithos
DU Moderator

[bemildred]

80. You are right enough that I have to agree, even though

I do not approve of teeing off on a new guy
until it is clear that he is not merely unaware
of the issue. Courtesy runs both ways. Many
people don't know doodle about these things.
You won't convince anyone by pissing them off.

There is much to be said, especially in this
forum, for avoiding ambiguity and flippancy,
although I am often guilty myself of those faults.

But above all, as in dealing with other issues of
race, ethnicity, or gender, you have to be sensitive
to the loaded use of language. Intentional or not,
it will get you in trouble. There is a long history
of persecution and race-baiting of Jews, some of it
quite ugly, and it continues today, and if you want
to post here, you should know enough to avoid saying
things that are sensitive in that way.

[Lithos]

82. Yes

I do not approve of teeing off on a new guy
until it is clear that he is not merely unaware
of the issue. Courtesy runs both ways. Many
people don't know doodle about these things.
You won't convince anyone by pissing them off.

Ignorance is also very common and should always be considered. The other common element is misunderstanding what is being said; the BBS format is imperfect and requires extra effort.

L-

[IntiRaymi]

85. Agree with much of that.

But, being able to explore all avenues is necessary.
For instance, I find myself the subject of constant insinuations of being an antisemite.
Why? Because I point out obvious things.
Why do I have to be muzzled for the sake of someone's desire for impunity?
Can any of the moderators tell me?

[bemildred]

90. It is a complicated subject.

One could go on at great length about the use of the dual loyalty slur against Jews and non-Jews historically, here and abroad, elaborating on the Dreyfus case, Germans and Japanese here in the World Wars, Kennedy and Catholics here in the USA, the means to talk about the subject while avoiding trouble on this board, the distinctions to be made about the facts that most US politicians support Israel to one degree or another, and some of them are Jewish, other historical attacks on Jews like the "blood libel", which is still out there, as are most of those I mentioned before, etc.

I am subject to the same slurs, but I don't care very much, I have other things to do than argue with people that don't really care about what I think in venues that really are not very important. As Lithos says, what is required is extra effort, and a thick skin helps.

While I understand your complaints, if you spend some time on boards without these restraints you will see some of the most amazing shit, and I don't mean just anti-semitic shit, but certainly plenty of that too. I prefer the modest level of censorship that we have here, on the whole. I am not emotionally committed to one side or another here, most consider me "pro-Palestinian", but the subject interests me, and I find I am able here to discuss with certain other posters on the terms I prefer while ignoring the rest, or not, as I choose. If you go elsewhere, you will find the noise level is much higher and the content not of much interest. You can get a good flavor by reading talkbacks a various sites, I can point out a few, like Haaretz, where there is no one in charge.

I hope this helps.

[bemildred]

91. Ignore is your friend.

I rarely use it, but when the temptation to engage some twit is too strong, it can be very useful, and it also circumvents any attempts to annoy you without your consent.

[IntiRaymi]

100. Evidently it is.

Just not annoyed enough yet.

[Lithos]

94. k

The issue is this. There are many bigots out in the world who have polluted the language and have obfuscated the discussion for various ends unrelated to the the actual I/P conflict. Where they used to be very overt in their hatred, they're now adopting indirect marketing to promote and mainstream their hateful agendas. This is true for anti-Semitic groups as well as groups which are anti-Islamic in nature.

It is unfortunately a sad fact that quite a few talking points that have been brought up in the greater I/P debate have sprung up from these groups and are now freely used by those who are ignorant of their underlying nature. So, the expectation on DU is users will avoid using such coin. It is also the expectation that users will try and educate people instead of haranguing them or assuming they know what they are talking about. If people feel a user is making inappropriate remarks, it is incumbent on them to use the alert system and to not engage the user in a direct manner; it is the role of the moderator to then evaluate and provide remedy.

As for the statement, "being able to explore all avenues", no DU is not the place for that. Certain memes, particularly those based on hate, are NOT appropriate. Attempting to give them any legs or merit is abhorrent to the basic ideas of progressive politics. DU Administration has made it VERY clear they do not wish the resources of this board to be directed towards the spreading of such ideas and ideals. If you have a problem with this, then I suggest you find an alternative board as this view is highly unlikely to ever change.

Lithos
DU Moderator

[IntiRaymi]

99. Bigotry comes in many flavors.

It is the single worst human quality.

[IntiRaymi]

83. Self Delete, n.t.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bullimiami]

54. no they arent. what a pile of manure. SOME israelis are concerned of course

the ones that have hopped in bed with these neocon bastards. the sane israelis are just as hopeful as we are that things might start looking up.

[IntiRaymi]

61. You bet.

Agreed 100%.

[bemildred]

63. Yes.

:thumbsup:

[Jim Sagle]

87. What a loathsome thread.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

89. What a garbage story

The author changes his/her mind half-way through. "Still, many Israelis were not overly concerned."

[642346a]

117. Playing both sides of the aisle

I've read that neocons were solidly behind going into Iraq. I
think most would agree. But I've also heard that the Israeli
lobby was too. We all know how much this war has cost us. We
all know that it has siphoned off money that might have been
used for domestic programs. The Democrats are usually seen as
the people who want to use money to help people in this
country (the common man). The problem seems to be that
democratic standard bearers such as Hillary Clinton seem too
beholden to Israeli lobbying groups such as AIPAC. I've read
that Senator Clinton has been one of the greatest recepients
of AIPAC money...yet she is someone to whom organizations like
Move On.org look to for leadership. If it is true that AIPAC
supported and still supports what is basically a costly and
failed Iraq/middle-east policy, then how can we expect
Democratic leaders to help us save the resources that we need
for the common man and woman in this country? I say this
because it seems that all senators and congressmen/women seem
to know one un-spoken truth...if you cross the Israeli lobby,
you are committing political suicide...you will have the same
fate as Paul Findley and others.