France demands Israel stop mock raids (Over Lebanon)

[leftchick]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061109/ap_on_re_mi_ea/frFrance demands Israel stop mock raids ance_mideast_mock_raids

wtf are they thinking?

PARIS - The French government demanded Thursday that Israel stop mock raids over Lebanon after French peacekeepers came within seconds of shooting down Israeli warplanes in what the defense minister called a near-catastrophe.

Israeli officials said the flights are needed to monitor Lebanese compliance with U.N. demands, and that they were working with the French-led U.N. peacekeeping force to avoid misunderstandings.

The incident incensed the French, drew attention to challenges facing the U.N. force and raised tensions three months into the shaky cease-fire that halted the Israel-Hezbollah war.

On Oct. 31, Israeli F-15 fighter planes nose-dived repeatedly over French peacekeepers' positions in southern Lebanon, French Defense Minister Michele Alliot-Marie told lawmakers Wednesday night.

The planes were "in attack position," a spokesman for the French general staff, Capt. Christophe Prazuck, told reporters. French troops responded by readying an anti-aircraft missile and were seconds away from firing, he said.

[Demeter]

1. Thinking? That's so 20th Century

The Bush Doctrine goes: shoot, aim, think

[marmar]

2. France has been serving as the conscience of the Western world quite a bit lately...

J'aime beaucoup, France.

[PrgressiveJ]

9. Nah France is pretty consistant with its attitude towards The Jewish State,

Its not `Lately`.

[bemildred]

3. Dungeon thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=153804&mesg_id=153804

[leftchick]

4. I don't understand

this isn't I/P it is I/F/L! :shrug:

[bemildred]

5. Right ... nt

[leftchick]

7. and here we are

:(

why does this have to be kept "secret" from the other world news? It ain't Palestine they were fucking with. Perhaps the dungeon should be renamed? I do not dare to make suggestions.

[bemildred]

8. Aw.

:hug::hug:

[leftchick]

10. thanks bemildred

I never come here so apparently I do not know the deal.

[bemildred]

6. See?

:-)

[Scurrilous]

11. Israel, U.S. ponder news ways to collect intelligence in Lebanon

<snip>

"Israel and the United States are considering different methods for collecting intelligence in Lebanon that would replace the overflights of Lebanese airspace by air force jets.

"We do not want to embarrass the government of Lebanon and create tensions with the states who deployed, at our request, troops to the United Nations force. If a solution can be found that would not require the overflights, and we could have another means to learn what goes on over there perfect," a senior political source in Jerusalem said yesterday. "If they will find a way to provide us with the information, that will be a very good solution," he added.

Among the possible alternatives to the overflights of Israel Air Force aircraft are the use of American satellites or intelligence gathering flights carried out by other countries, with the approval of the government of Lebanon.

The American administration has made it clear to Israel that it recognizes the need for gathering intelligence and knows that the air force's aerial photography provided important information which helped Israel during the recent war in Lebanon.

However, the Americans are concerned that continued overflights will contribute to a weakening of the government of Lebanon headed by Prime Minister Fouad Siniora. Washington fears the flights will offer Hezbollah an excuse to violate the cease-fire, by arguing that Israel has broken the deal first with its overflights."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/786237.html

[bemildred]

12. See, I don't believe this.

You don't need permission for satellites, and I doubt that F-16s are all that good for "intelligence gathering", especially since they are not a constant presence. There is another agenda here. I was hoping the US would put pressure on to stop this sort of provocations, but it doesn't look like it's going to happen yet.

[lumpy]

13. Israel is all about provocation and defience.

Obviously

[msmcghee]

14. Yeah, they built those towns within missile range . .

. . just so their kids could get blown up by the poor Palestinians of Gaza as soon as they left. Damn those joos.

[LivingInTheBubble]

17. What has that got to do with violating other countries airspace

and intimidating them and peacekeepers

Hopefully one day they WILL get shot down, until then they will continue to do whatever they like because they can get away with it.

[pelsar]

20. hmms let think:

hisballa has hundreds of long range missles with large warheads that can hit tel aviv and beyond:

Hizballas threatens to use them (and during the war launches 1,000s of missles at israeli cities, schools, hospitals and residential centers.

Hizballas long range missles with the larger warheads cant be used.....because the Israeli Air Force destroyed them in the first days.


and they knew where they were because they had recon flights.


_____

so lets weigh the two "evils"....recon flights over lebanon to discover the hiding places of the missles....vs no recon flights over lebanon and large warhead missles flying into israel with probably hundreds dead..

guess some prefer the dead israelis.

[msmcghee]

21. It has everything to do with it.

Missiles fired into northern israel - you know, the 4000 missiles recently fired into N. Israel, the missiles with NO defensive purpose, the missiles loaded with ball-bearings designed to kill and maim as many civilians as possible - are violations of Israel's airspace.

Nasrallah says he'll do a better job next time.

Israeli F-16's loaded with cameras may technically be violating Lebanon's airspace. However,

a) They are defensive. Their purpose is to save lives - both israeli and Lebanese lives.

b) They wouldn't be there if Hisb'allah had not started a war recently with Israel and promised to do it again.

c) They wouldn't be there if the UN were actually stopping the re-stocking of additional missiles into S. Lebanon and disarming Hisb'allah - as the UN Resolution requires them to do.

I guess you'd prefer that Israel remain blind to this so the next time the missiles from S Lebanon would be harder to stop - thereby assuring that the next war by Nasrallah will probably result in many more dead Israelis and far more than the thousand or so dead Lebanese that resulted from Narallah's last attempt to destroy Israel and kill Jews.

But wait! You hate it when Israel (all about confrontation and provocation) kills Arabs. Why would you support policies and actions that will certainly result in more dead Arabs in the near future? Why wouldn't you be screaming about Hisb'allah rearming S Lebanon with more civilian-killing missiles and preparing for the next war? Istead, you scream about Israel's recon flights that might give her some small defensive capability against those (civilian-killing) offensive missiles.

Perhaps you could explain your reasoning for us.

I know that last sentence is a real thread-killer around here - but maybe someone of you would actually try to address it and show that there is more than just hatred of Israel involved.

[pelsar]

15. the F-16/15 recon modes....

actually they're considered excellent platforms for recon.......and the only "constant presence" is a balloon which is severe limitations of angle and height:

Satellites are also limited in to a specific angle..which has severe limitations....


http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?storyID=123018070


to date, nothing beats a maneuverable flying recon platform, at least thats what the modern armies of the world believe.

[IntiRaymi]

16. It is a stupid way to do recon.

The essence in this are airspace violations, and potential incidents with whatever UN forces are down there.

[pelsar]

18. shall i even ask?

its a stuiped way to do recon?....and your suggestion no doubt is to not do it, so that next time when hizballa plans to launch their missles to Tel Aviv (as they has said they will) and kill just the jewish israelis....the israel air force will have no idea where they are......and so the jewish israelis will be massacred.

true that is one option, that some here believe is the prefered scenario....me? Of course shall i state the obvious?..that perhaps the UN should do their job and stop the smuggling?...

or is this not an option?


hmm: air space violations vs missles on Tel Aviv...kind of a no brainer for us israelis

[bemildred]

23. Pelsar and I have had this discussion before.

He has better evidence for his position this time, and I give him credit for that, but I agree that I fail to see why the provocations are necessary. If the desire were merely to take pictures, one would think it better not to alert the people on the ground that you were in the neighborhood, for example, and not to annoy the UNIFIL folks while taking pictures.

[IntiRaymi]

26. The reason it is stupid is this:

Incidents.
Strategic corporal.
....
Israel has, understandably, entrusted its junior military officers with the ability to make intelligent battlefield decisions, but it is becoming increasingly apparent that the regional brinksmanship has stepped to the 'next level.' A Lone Ranger in the Sky is going to cause more trouble than his very expensive training was worth.
Perhaps F-15's overflying Lebanon is the best way to gather intelligence on Hezbollah's positions, but to have them do it in that style, is to invite trouble. Hence 'stupid.'

[pelsar]

27. i think the stupidity is in the "post"

where ever the above post came from, doesnt have much to do what i know of the IAF.......a "lone ranger'?.....perhaps a link is in order so we can discover what the author actually knows about the israel....and we can then discover who is the "stuiped" one here?

[IntiRaymi]

28. A pilot is either acting on his own, or was ordered to do so.

I am assuming that taking attack postures directed at French positions are a result of a moron acting on his own.
The alternative is troublesome.

[bemildred]

29. Yes, I found that article interesting too.

I think I posted it here a few days back. I think you can see signs of that issue in the little poops constantly being laid by the IDF and the IAF and then frantically explained away by the government talking heads. The nominal civilian command authority is not in fact in control of what happens, and one gets the feeling that even the high-level military brass hats are often taken unawares by the daily little disasters.

[bemildred]

22. Thanks, first time I'd seen that.

It improves your case somewhat. I suppose you don't have the U-2 or SR-71 at your disposal, and one would expect that the F-16s are most difficult to shoot down. I don't really know what other sort of recce capabilities you have. It was my impression that ground intel from spies was the most useful, but that may be hard to come by now.

I still find the idea that this is really necessary unlikely. If the UNIFIL forces are not to be trusted and cooperated with, one wonders why it was thought such a good thing that they should be brought in.

This whole charade seems premised on the notion that there will be war again, and soon, which I think quite likely too, but it would seem a good idea (to me anyway, I know I'm confused) not to pick a fight with France and Germany, and it will be interesting, as I said before, to see if they do anything about it.

[pelsar]

24. let me add what i know...

both hizballa and israel assume there will be another war ("wishful thinking?") both "walked away not satisfied". The UNIFIL forces?....politics on all the levels (i'm sure most of which are behind the scenes.). But they do serve an immediate purpose to calm down the situation. My guess is that when Hizballa is ready they'll kill some and the rest will withdraw

as far as intelligence gathering.....
israel has balloons with various devices on the border, but they have but a single angle and short distance. A satellite, limited angle problem. Hi flying jets flying fast cant always be heard or seen. Plus the cameras have different angles. Helicopters: way too noisey. Drones have various uses, the smaller ones make a lawn mower type noise and everyone knows they're around, even if they're hard to spot (easy to shoot down as well)

On the ground stuff is tricky.....sneaking in and sneakying out is only short term and for very specific missions. Local spies? maybe, (the mossad doesnt confide in me) All in all intel comes as a combo of everything. Each with its own advantages and disadvantages. But the imagry is essential for the ground troops, that means good photographs from the air.

btw as far as the "attacking jets go"....unless their flying low its extremely difficult to discern not only which way there going but their altitude as well. Even when you think they coming at you...they're actually miles away headed for a different target ......just some thoughts from lessons in the past. Whether its relevant to the French incident i wouldnt know.

[bemildred]

25. Thanks for your thoughts.

I am skeptical that Hizbullah would be anxious to crank things up again for the present, or that they were dissatisfied. They are, on paper, a much inferior force, and they had a certain amount of luck in giving as good an account of themselves as they did, and there is little likelihood it will go the same way next time. I would expect them to spend some time enjoying and exploiting their "victory" politically.

Like any smaller fellow in the ring with a heavyweight, their goals were to remain standing, keep hitting back, and perhaps get lucky with a few sucker punches. Even without the long-range rockets, they managed to get the IDF to invade and attack their prepared positions in S. Lebanon, with results that we know. They will not likely manage to do that again.

I am well aware of the difficulty of finding a fast moving jet before it is long past you, we have them around in some of the places I go. If you were high enough, I expect you could still take pictures that way, and you would still be somewhere else by the time someone heard you. Going NOE I don't think you'd get much but a blur.

Your comments on the other methods seem right.

[bemildred]

30. Eh, you may be right.

This fellow doesn't seem to be a KoolAid drinker, and he thinks that Hizbullah plans to start something:

These accounts show that the old scheming Olmert is back. Not only did he dodge a state commission of inquiry, but he deflected public criticism away from himself and onto the generals. When he visited the North, he proclaimed that Hezbollah had been beaten and would not be firing any more missiles into Israeli territory. This is the kind of arrogance that calls to mind Yigal Allon's claim that the Syrian plane capable of crossing Israel's border hadn't been invented yet. The next day, a lone Syrian jet created a sonic boom over Haifa.

Olmert's words look like soap bubbles in light of the intelligence predictions that Hezbollah, backed by Iran and Syria, might surprise us next summer with a reprisal attack all across the northern border. It seems that Hezbollah is not going to wait for the conclusions of the Winograd Commission anymore than Hamas is going to sit quietly in the face of humiliation, starvation and attacks by Israel. It won't be long now before Gaza becomes a mini-Lebanon and a launching pad for suicide bombers.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/786218.html

[davhill]

19. If Israel Attacks France

Since France is a NATO member, are we not, under the NATO treaty, automatically at war with Israel? I believe that an attack on one member is supposed to be considered an attack on all.

[bemildred]

31. France: IAF stops 'hostile' mock attacks on UN troops in Lebanon

BRUSSELS - Israel Air Force warplanes have stopped mock air attacks targeting European peacekeepers in Lebanon following a French government
protest, French Defense Minister Michelle Alliot-Marie said Monday

"There is no more of that attitude - that is, an openly hostile attitude -like we had over a French vessel, a German vessel and the French ground forces, which caused a real danger of legitimate defense measures being
taken," Alliot-Marie told reporters at an EU meeting.

Paris demanded that Israel stop the raids after French peacekeepers came
within seconds of shooting down IAF warplanes two weeks ago.

Alliot-Marie said IAF overflights of Lebanon were continuing in defiance of the United Nations, but said they were no longer taking a threatening
approach to the peacekeepers.

Haaretz

[bemildred]

32. Report: Air Force Flyover Lebanon Friday AM

14:00 Nov 17, '06 / 26 Cheshvan 5767

(IsraelNN.com) According to media reports, Israel Air Force fighter planes entered Lebanese airspace on Friday morning, over Tyre and Bint Jbeil, areas where the international stabilization force is stationed.

Earlier in the week, the United Nations reiterated calls to Israel to abstain from flyovers, calling the move a violation of the ceasefire implemented following this summer’s war, in accordance with UN Resolution 1701.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=115730

[bemildred]

34. Israeli aircraft again violate Lebanese airspace

TYRE, Lebanon - Three Israeli warplanes on Friday violated Lebanese airspace, flying repeatedly over the south of the country despite harsh international criticism of such incursions.

The fighter-bombers overflew the Tyre and Bint Jbeil areas where troops of the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) are deployed, intruding at high altitude repeatedly from around 0900 GMT, an AFP correspondent reported.

The Jewish state has maintained persistent overflights of Lebanon despite the August 14 ceasefire which ended the month-long hostilities between it and Lebanon’s Shiite Hezbollah movement.

When asked about Friday’s overflights, an Israeli military spokesman said only: “We don’t elaborate on aerial activity”.

http://www.khaleejtimes.ae/DisplayArticleNew.asp?xfile=data/middleeast/2006/November/middleeast_November330.xml§ion=middleeast&col=

[bemildred]

33. French UN unit takes "preparatory steps" over Israeli jets flying low over south Lebanon

BEIRUT, Lebanon: Anti-aircraft units of the French U.N. peacekeeping force took what they called "essential preparatory steps" when Israeli air force jets flew low over south Lebanon on Friday, a spokesman said.

No hostile action from either side was reported in the incident, which was the second time in three weeks that French forces have come close to firing on Israeli aircraft overflying Lebanon.

Milos Strugar, senior adviser to the U.N. force commander, said the French action came after Israeli aircraft flew low over the French battalion's area on Friday.

He would not be more specific on the "steps" taken by the French anti-aircraft units.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/11/17/africa/ME_GEN_Lebanon_Israel_Peacekeepers.php

[bemildred]

35. French UN troops prepare to respond to Israeli jets over Lebanon

TYRE, Lebanon - French UN anti-aircraft batteries on Friday took "preparatory steps" to respond when Israeli jets violated Lebanese airspace despite global criticism of such incursions, a UN spokesman said.

"The anti-aircraft unit of the (French) battalion took initial preparatory steps to respond to these actions," Milos Strugar, spokesman of the UN Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL), told AFP.

He said "UNIFIL observed and reported 14 Israeli air violations this morning, on November 17, 2006, and 11 of these violations occurred in the area of operation of the French battalion with UNIFIL."

UNIFIL Force Commander General Alain Pellegrini "strongly protested to the Israeli authorities and asked them to cease these actions which are unacceptable and in violation of Resolution 1701," the spokesman said.

Channel News Asia

[Vorta]

36. If I were the French, I would steer clear of Israeli aircraft. eom