Creating Positive Facts on the Ground

[pelsar]

for those interested in a bit reality.....in here lies a good realistic explanation of the way to the end of the conflict....

one should note, they're not writing about "justice"...they're writing about how to end the conflict, they recognize that the term "justice" is a "non starter"

http://www.pij.org/details.php?id=818


Those advocating these parameters of possible agreement do so without reference to the justice of the settlement or the legitimacy of the two sides’ deeply held, but conflicting, dreams and aspirations.

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While many Israelis recognize the ways in which their interests might be served if a viable Palestinian state materializes, most feel that they could live, albeit less securely and perhaps less prosperously, with the consequences of a failed state or no state at all. By contrast, the prospect of a failed Palestinian state or the perpetuation of the status quo is one that would be disastrous for Palestinians. Because the failure to produce a viable Palestinian state will weigh much more heavily on the Palestinians than the Israelis, our analysis will focus more heavily on what Palestinians might be able to do to create an outcome that they will find bearable

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Any settlement with a realistic chance of being enacted will leave both sides feeling that they have been denied certain aspects of the justice they deserve

[pelsar]

1. well i thought it was an interesting article....

perhaps because i agree with it....

[msmcghee]

2. I share your opinion.

But I think we'll be in the minority. Some smart people with good intentions spent some time on that. That's obvious.

[Violet_Crumble]

3. I haven't read it...

...and after reading the responses in this thread, I'm not going to...

[pelsar]

4. the failed state...

Alternatively, the negative scenario one can envision — that is, a non-viable Palestinian state, one consisting of separated enclaves, hemmed in by closed borders, with little prospect for social, political, or economic success — poses grave risks for Israel as well. This outcome will most certainly spark a Palestinian reaction that will include violent confrontation, organized armed resistance, and massive resentment.

though they dont go beyond the above paragraph.....i was hoping they would. A failed Palestenian state is far more than the present status quo. If israel pulls out and the palestenains cant 'get it together" we'll have "mini gazas" all along the westbank. That kind of scenario to anyone who really thinks about it must send chills up their spine.

Not just kassams on Jerusalem but within and inbetween as well. For those who advocate israel pullout now, i wonder what they "plan b" is...if the palestenains cant work it out?..Is gazas present state better than it was when israel was there? (gidon levy for one thinks not, left israeli writer), do those how want israel out now, even care what happens to the palestenains if they fail?

on a very personal basis, i guess i actually care more than they do. If we pullout before the palestenians are really ready for a state (that means strong cetnral govt, one security force, etc) I and my son might find ourselves in an urban combat zone in Jenin, or Bethlehem, going after the mortar/kassam teams....and Unlike Jenin, such sucidal "careful" methods wont be used, this means hand grenades in homes, mortars in backyards etc, it means i and others like me may be involved in some very ugly scenarios.

Will the Palestenians fail?....one cant read the future, but one can look at gaza.....are they shooting becauses they didnt get everything they wanted?...well any westbank pullout will also have aspects that not every jihadnkim will be satisfied with, and it doesnt take much to pull out a tube and launch a mortar....and then what?

[IntiRaymi]

5. Actually: Not a bad read.

Hopefully not a pointless collection of glittering generalities:

"The dilemma Israelis face is both obvious and serious. The positive scenario one can hope for — that is, a viable Palestinian state meeting the challenges of good governance with enhanced security and positive economic performance leading to a higher standard of living and an end to anti-Israeli actions — clearly offers the most inviting prospect for most Israelis."

I would state that the right to live without fear of arbitrary israeli 'justice' is a key component for the emergence of good governance in Palestine.

[pelsar]

6. you have to address the actions of the jihadnikim....

the one thing you've never been able to face and offer a solution for is:

when the jihadnikim pull out their mortor and launch a few mortors on the nearby israeli city, what should israels response be? if any......

since that is core of the matter for israelis its "non answer" is like screaming in out ears:

[IntiRaymi]

7. I won't presume to solve issues such as those.

It is not mine to do so.
In issues like these, focusing on a single issue is the most effective thing.
But, consider the statements in other threads concerning the amount of private palestinian land that has been expropriated by Israeli settlers.
That is the sort of thing that gets people pissed off, and ends up making them good candidates of ideologization by the likes of these jihadnikim, of whom you talk.

[pelsar]

8. thats hardly the sole issue....

there are two main issues:

settlements and attacks on israel.......(though some like hamas and islamic jihad claim its not the settlements...its the existance of israel that they have a problem with.....)


everyone always claims that there is a 'cycle of violence" and the settlements must cease....

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israel did that in part: stopped the cycle by leaving gaza and removing settlements.

the result: not only did the shooting at israelis continue but due to increased smuggling it has increased.......i guess that also gets some people pissed off and makes them (us) good candidates for not believing that if additional settlements are removed all of a sudden the shooting will stop.

and for whatever the reason, like the hizballa up north, there will be additional reasons for shooting at israelis, whether or not settlements are removed, frozen or not....
______

but i did notice, you have nothing to suggest to the israelis as over 10 kassams fall daily and their range is extended.....nor did i ever read any suggestion for the hizballa who crossed the intl border , killed israelis and took two back with them....as if that is acceptable to you...