Dershowitz: Israel's targeted killings are legal

[Herschel]

Harvard law professor Alan M. Dershowitz says there is "absolutely no doubt" that Israel's policy of targeted killings of senior Hamas terrorists is legal under international law.

In an opinion piece in last week's Toronto Globe and Mail, Dershowitz wrote, "Hamas has declared war against Israel. All of its leaders are combatants, whether they wear military uniforms, suits, or religious garb."

"Under any reasonable standard," he concluded, "Israeli policy with regard to the targeted assassinations of 'ticking-bomb terrorists' does not deserve the kind of condemnation it is receiving." "Any democracy facing threats to its civilian population comparable to those faced by Israel would respond in much the same way Israel is now responding to the terrorism being conducted by Hamas and other terrorist groups," he said.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1064292498277

Gratifying to see a liberal friend of Israel speak out for her.

[Darranar]

1. A "liberal" who speaks out in favor of torture...

got it. :eyes:

Is it worth registering with Jpost to read this in its entirety? I've registered before, but I'm not in the mood to fill out all that junk again...

[IndianaGreen]

31. How sad the way Dershowitz has been taken over by the Dark Side

of the Force.

Perhaps someone ought to remind him that assassinations, which is what "targeted killings" really are, are a double-edge sword. Those that live by it, shall surely die by it. Dershowitz better do some serious soul searching this weekend!

[drdon326]

2. Agree

Dershowitz is correct.

Sane liberalism is, thankfully ,not dead.

[Jim Sagle]

3. The Dersh nails it again!

:thumbsup:

[quilp]

25. Actually he hit his own thumb!

n/t

[Jim Sagle]

44. Don't knock the Dersh!

:thumbsup:

[quilp]

51. Screw the Dersh!

I'd like to tell him "up" where!

[Jim Sagle]

54. The Dersh Man, Doin' What He Can...to make the world a better place.

:thumbsup:

[quilp]

56. You mean like helping to get O. J. Simpson aquitted?

n/t

[Jim Sagle]

63. Hey, nobody's perfect.

:shrug:

[quilp]

72. Come! Come! No false modesty please!

n/t

[DuctapeFatwa]

4. Both US and Israel have decreed that they will murder whom they choose

Anywhere, any time, for any or no reason.

International laws are intended for other countries, as decreed by the US.

[Jackie97]

5. Jerusalem Post is always a reliable source.

LOL.

I personally don't condemn Israel for wanting to kill leaders of Hamas and those who help them (I just condemn their killing a bunch of innocent people with one Hamas leader). However, they're legally considered to be civilians until a court of law says otherwise or until they join a legitimate military. It's only legal to kill them during actual attempts to attack.

[MariMayans]

6. I was reading a footnote today..

in "Dangerous Liasons" dealing with the Jerusalem Post. This guy had moved to Israel and was taking Hebrew classes. Their usual excersise was translating Haaretz into English and the english version Jerusalem Post into Hebrew. The class all noticed that Haaretz always had much more detailed and critical coverage than Jerusalem Post. The teacher said "You have to understand the purpose of the Post. It's to make sure the American Ambassador has a happy breakfast" and I thought that was the most accurate description of the Post I'd ever seen.

[The Magistrate]

7. Actually

They are combatants; falling into the catagory of irregular combatants recognized by the Geneva Accords. Courts of law have nothing to do with it.

[Darranar]

8. Are political leaders included...

as combatants?

[Jackie97]

26. If a Hamas leader should count as a combatant...

then so should Ariel Sharon, who's been in wars for years.

[Darranar]

29. He is counted as so...

by both myself and The Magistrate.

[Gimel]

65. Political leader?

The Hamas officials are not political leaders, if that's what you are saying, Darranar. The are not elected nor do they stand for election. They are leaders of a terrorist organization.

[Darranar]

70. They are political leaders...

Saddam Hussein was a political leader, but he didn't stand for election either.

[Gimel]

77. No?

The vote was unanimous, remember? He was also an office holder, whereas the Hamas leadership has no official status.

[Darranar]

78. A better example...

Some kings have political power, but they aren't elected. They are political leaders but they don't stand for elections.

[mmm]

11. Thank You for the useless thought

There is also a name for the murdered innocents -
they call them Hamas.

[Violet_Crumble]

16. It wasn't useless...

I think the Magistrate is spot on with what he said, though I'm a bit confused about whether political leaders are considered civilians under the Geneva Accords...

Uh, Hamas are combatants and they're in no way considered innocent. Hamas are in no way innocent or civilians in the way that the vast bulk of the Israeli and Palestinian population is....

Violet...

[Darranar]

18. I agree...

though I think mmm's point was that when the IDF does kill civilians it often calls them cohorts of the terrorists.

[The Magistrate]

19. To Me, Ma'am

The distinction is no more meaningful than that between, say, an infantry element and a logistics element, in any armed force. The "political" wing of Hamas is essentially the branch of recruitment, supply, and direction of grand strategy, the "military" wing is the executant arm. Arguments could be made on either side, of course.

[Darranar]

24. Okay...

but isn't there some sort of difference in international law between combatants and those who support combatants?

[Jackie97]

28. Maybe we all really need to explore all of these issues more.

We seem to keep coming up with more questions on the legality of this issue. At least, I know I am.

[Gimel]

34. Recently it was told

that bin Laden "tweaked" the 9/11 plans. That is, he changed the plans of the regular "qaeda" terrorists from using small private planes to crash into the WTC and Pentagon, and came up with the brilliant strategy of hijacking commercial airlines for the attack.
Did bin Laden evey kill anyone in that attack? He's a strategist, not a real terrorist, right? Just like a spiritual advisor./naivity tag

[The Magistrate]

35. As The Question Relates To Hamas, Sir

The answer turns on whether you consider Hamas a single organization, and an armed organization engaged in warlike operations.

In a regular military force, a large proportion of the soldiery are not assigned to combatant roles, but to roles which support combatant elements. Supply, maintainance of equipment, administration and clerical duties, transport, even staff offficers, all take no normal part in combat. All are still legitimate targets for attack in war.

If you consider Hamas a single organization, then similatly those involved in recruiting, fund-raising, strategizing amd othewrwise supporting the operations of combatant elements, are legitimate targets. The argument that Hamas is not such a unitary organization is supportable, but not to such a degree as to convince me of that position's validity, and it is my view the thing is a unitary group, like a regular military force.

As a broader consideration, certainly a person who simply agrees with Hamas, but has not joined it, could not be considered a combatant, any more than an Israeli, say, who votes for Likud, could be so considered. A person who actively assists Hamas without joining it, though, would be certainly a combatant at the time he did so, just like a civilian contractor hauling supplies, or building a road, for an army, would be a legitimate target for attack.

[UserNamesAreFree]

39. But isn't Hamas involved in charity?

I see your point about Hamas members that supply and aid their militants potentially being targets. But aren't some members of Hamas simply relief workers uninvolved with aiding militants?

[DuctapeFatwa]

42. Giving Palestinians food and water is considered terrorism

The UN report last week referred to it as Israel's "policy of Starvation."

The US considers any group to be terrorists unless they specifically deny humanitarian aid to children of people who died committing crimes.

[Gimel]

43. Humanitarian acts are always excluded

However, if destributing food is accompanied with a political message, the charity of the organization should be investigated by the government. Since the PA does nothing to stop Hamas, it seems reasonalbe that Arafat should set up relief programs for the people to counter the Hamas influence.

[DuctapeFatwa]

45. Link to story of the Policy of Starvation

The UN Special Rapporteur on the Right to Food, Jean Ziegler, said in a draft report that the Israeli military is preventing Palestinians reaching food and water with restrictions on movement in the territories, according to Swiss newspaper Le Temps and news agency ATS.

"The humanitarian catastrophe that is emerging in the Occupied Territories must be reversed," the Swiss sociologist and UN expert was quoted as saying in the draft.

"There can be no justification for harsh internal closures that prevent people from having access to food and water, otherwise the imposition of such military measures are amounting to what has been called a 'policy of starvation'", he said in the report.

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_1417702,00.html

[Gimel]

66. Internal closures are harsh measures

As such, the civilians are put to the test in a conflict of the terrorists choosing. Arafat had the opportunity to build a social relief system, before the Intifada, but was either too blind or too corrupt to do so.

The issue discussed is not the IDF closures, but Hamas members being targeted in the war on terorrorism. There is a distinction, which Israeli border police make as well, between social service workers in the Hamas organization and armed militants.

[The Magistrate]

46. These Matters Are Not Cut And Dried, Sir

It is useful to bear in mind some principles of guerrilla war. Such conflicts are more political then military in their means, which is why conventional military forces typically encounter such difficulty in supressing them. The greatest need for a guerrilla body is to cultivate and maintain political support among the people it has elected to act as the armed vanguard for. This is essential for successful operations: it is the shield against informers, the source of information and funds, and the supply of recruits. Such relief operations are general among guerrilla forces: there has never been a rebel band that did not throw open the land-lord's granaries for the people to take what they could from the bounty. Counter-insurgency operations in the modern era frequently adopt the same pattern, with soldiers providing medical treatment and rations, and building schools and wells. Where such activities so directly bear on the military efficiency of the guerrilla force, it seems to me more appropriate than not to characterize the cadre who carry them out as military personnel, analogous to to a civil affairs detachment, such as are operating today among U.S. forces in Afghanistan and Iraq. The matter is open to debate, and many persons will doubtless take an opposite view.

[UserNamesAreFree]

47. I think I see your point

Saying relief workers can be seen as doing PR for the militants, thereby aiding recruitment, etc. At this point, I'd lean toward saying such workers, if not directly supplying militants, should not be considered targets. But like you said, there's room for debate.

[The Magistrate]

48. Fair Enough, Sir

Israel v. Palestine is a vexed matter, in which people of good heart and sound intellect may easily find themselves moved to opposing views. There is more than enough of justice and blame to go around for either side.

[Darranar]

50. Okay...

thanks for the clarification.

[Jim Sagle]

20. Talk about useless.

[Jackie97]

27. Hamas may be civilians, but they're not innocents.

Give me a break!

People who target civilians (including children) in Israel are innocent?

Talk about useless thought.

[drdon326]

33. "Hamas may be civilians, but they're not innocents."???

Sharon's been saying the EXACT SAME THING.

Ohhhh.....so now youre a RW Likudnik .

[Jackie97]

62. There's nothing right winged or Likud like about what I said....

As far as I'm concerned, your accusation is as classless as the accusations that anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism. There are plenty of people who advocate Palestinian rights who do not see the Hamas as innocent. As it is, I have been speaking completely against targeting the Hamas.

Don't use the "Sharon also did/said this" tactic. It's as misrepresentive as saying:

Person X doesn't want guns to be legal.

Hitler didn't want guns to be legal.

Therefore, Person X is like Hitler.

See how dumb that argument is?

[Must_B_Free]

9. So Hamas can legally assassinate Israeli leaders then?

or is it only legal for Israel to do the killing?

[The Magistrate]

17. Certainly It Is, Sir

Just as it is legal for them to kill Israeli soldiers. Indeed, if they aimed to do so consistently, my opinion of them would be somewhat other than it is.

[quilp]

10. And what about the innocent bystanders who are also killed?

If the Isrealis can respond to "terrorism" with depraved indifference to the killing of innocent bystanders how do they differ from the "terrorists" they condemn?

[Darranar]

12. Because they do it for "security"...

and the terrorists do it for "hatred." Or something along those lines.

[DuctapeFatwa]

15. Pre-emptive collateral damage. Today's innocents aretomorrow's guilty

Nip 'em in the bud, Andy.

[HawkerHurricane]

13. It is legal to kill terrorists.

It is terrorism to oppose Isreal.
Therefore, it is legal to kill those who oppose Isreal.
Those who say it is illegal to kill those who oppose Isreal are terrorists.
Terrorists are to be executed.
All terrorists are to report to level six for execution.
Failure to obey this order is terrorism.
- The Computer.

[Darranar]

14. LOL!

I guess I'm to be executed, then...

[HawkerHurricane]

30. Report to level 6 for execution.

Failure to do so will result in your execution.
- The Computer

[Equinox]

52. I can't find my way to level six...can someone show me the way?

n/t

[HawkerHurricane]

53. Failure to find level six

is terrosism.

[pansypoo53219]

23. since Bush is a terrorist to the world

we now have a dandy excuse for offing him.

[the_sam]

21. Amnesty International Disagrees

Sorry, I think the most revered human rights organization in the world has a better grasp of international law than a publicity hog attorney. See: http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE150562003?open&of=ENG-ISR

[MariMayans]

22. Dersh is sad

If Israel decided tomorrow to make Palestinians wear funny hats and hop up and down on one foot when they walked he would make up a reason that it was logical and then write a legal defense.

His entire belief system can be rerouted instantly. If Israel changes it's mind he changes his.

[Gimel]

67. Not so funny

This is a slander on the Jews, however unintended. Remember that Jews were required by Nazi law to wear a Star of David. No Israeli government would issue such a decree.

[Aidoneus]

68. that was probably the point

bitter irony, and all..

I believe the point (through half of this thread in general, actually) was that "The Dersh" is the sort of opportunistic partisan that would rationalize anything Israel does or would ever do. The comparison to the Soviet Union's Fan Club from a past age is quite astute I think, seeing it as their divine mission to cheer on their team or rationalize whatever it does no matter how crazy it gets.

[Gimel]

69. When you take sides

In this era of the "Axis of Evil", there is a dichotomy created. Defending Israel is not like defending a person you feel innocent of a crime. In all it's complexity, and all the fault-finding, the supporters of Israel are always in touch with the justice of it's right to exist, and the justice of defending itself against homicide attacks.

Israel policy is not one person's dream or night-mare. It is a small country, but not a dictatorship. Policy is debated, analyzed and scrutinized by many persons holding a wide spectrum of opinion. Faults are discussed as well. No one's perfect, neither is any nation without blemish. But are blemishes the totality? I don't read Dershowitz enough to be able to tell you if he at all recognizes faults and problems when they occur. However, this controversial issue is not a small item. A professional opinon concerning it's legality is not kowtowing.

[MariMayans]

75. You made that comparison

not I, but there is video from a few years ago showing the IDF at Ram checkpoint in Jerusalem forcing Palestinians to hop on one foot, do push ups, riding around on their backs like they were animals, and finally kicking them in the testicles a few times for good measure.

I'm sure Alan will come up with a reason for it if he could be bothered to watch it.

[sushi]

83. Never heard of that

disgusting video!
AD must belong to the "Israel can do no wrong' side.

[Jim Sagle]

82. Dersh rawwwwwwwwwwwks!!!

[dudeness]

32. I find it a rather sad reflection on the condition of human nature

that a law professor..politican..army general or anyone holding a badge of authority for that matter, gives the all clear to murder, we jump for joy in the belief that our actions are righteous..as this "war" is clearly not a fair fight..is it not the more "advanced" countries obligation to show leadership and find an end to the hostilies..

[sushi]

84. I so agree with you

<<...is it not the more "advanced" countries' obligation to show leadership and find an end to the hostilities... >>

The fight between Israel and the Palestinians is so one-sided, it's ridiculous that the stronger side hasn't taken the initiative to lead the way to peace, a peace that is reasonable and acceptable to both sides. But I guess it will be hard because Israel wants all of the Palestinians to leave so that it can take ALL of their territory.

[UserNamesAreFree]

36. Generally, I like Dershowitz

I've seen him advocate liberal causes many times. Israel does seem to get more than it's share of critisism for action against Hamas and other terrorists groups. At the same time, they do at times seem too reckless...

[Gimel]

37. Great, User_free

For onec and unbiased fair assessment. Welcome.


Collateral damage is a serious shortcoming of the method of targeted assassinations. However, sometimes, they do hit the target and nothing else. Don't know the percentage, but seems to be 2 out of 3, according to latest strikes.

[UserNamesAreFree]

38. Civilian deaths are horrible

all the way around. But it seems if Israel is going to try and strike at terrorist groups, targeted assassinations would be a method that minimizes impact on civilians...

edit- By targeted assassinations, I was referring to killing militants directly by gunfire as opposed to things like missles into civilian areas. Sorry if I misunderstood the term...

edit 2- Thanks for the welcome!

[Gimel]

40. I agree with that

Firing missiles into civilian areas is not targeted. However, a missile hitting the car of a terrorist may qualify as an assassination. However, almost always there is the killing of at least one other person, the driver or a bodyguard.

[UserNamesAreFree]

41. I may catch it for this

but I don't have a big problem with a bodyguard or driver for a militant getting hit. But it's innocent bystanders, especially kids...

[DuctapeFatwa]

49. The most effective argument in favor of Israel's "targeted murders"

Would be made by those who would welcome tanks and helicopter gunships firing missiles into the street where they live, and where their children play.

I assume Mr. Dershowitz is actively campaigning to have the practice begin in his own neighborhood as soon as possible.

[Jim Sagle]

55. If his neighborhood was crawling with genocide bombers,

I wouldn't have a problem with it.

[Aidoneus]

57. "genocide bombers" ?

.

[MariMayans]

59. jinx

[MariMayans]

58. "genocide bombers"

Your sense of scale is quite something to behold.

[DuctapeFatwa]

60. If you would like to see this happen on your street, it is your duty

as an American to actively work to change the law to permit tank and missile fire on the street where you live.

There are criminals, murderers, in many neighborhoods in the United States, even neighborhoods inhabited by affluent white people.

You have convinced me that there would be broad and enthusiastic support for deploying missile fire into upscale suburban cul-de-sacs whenever it is suspected that someone who is suspected of having committed a crime is in the area.

[MariMayans]

61. right..

Don't let Jim try and "help" me if someone is mugging me. Apparently his solution would be to pick up an automatic weapon and waste me, the criminal and all the bystanders.

[Jim Sagle]

64. I'd never harm you, Mm.

Besides, I/P is war. So my answer doesn't really apply to The Dersh's neighborhood. But of course, neither did the original question.

[quilp]

71. Yes sir! Kill anyone found "crawling"!

Just how old are these "genocide bombers"?

[LastDemInIdaho]

73. The age of genocide bombers does not matter to hamas and other anti-Jewish

As long as the bombers can kill as many Jews as possible is all that matters to these sick murderers. I am amased at the patience Israel has shown to the people supporting these bombers.

Targeting Jews for death simply because they are Israeli is wrong in so many ways that Israel should require anyone in contact with these bombers turn them in before they have a chance to kill innocents.

[Darranar]

74. What about targeting Muslims just because they're Palestinian?

n/t

[LastDemInIdaho]

76. There is not major effort there.

The current issue is the PA and their hamas squad killing innocent Israelis. That is the one major issue that needs addressed.

[Darranar]

79. The PA and Hamas have several disagreements...

Rather like Saddam and Al Qaeda in several respects. I don't buy the claim that Saddam helped plan 9/11, and I don't believe that the PA is in such deep connection with terrorist groups either.

There are several other "major issues," btw. the wall, the settlements, the occupation... Why are only the extremist actions of the Palestinians discussable?

[LastDemInIdaho]

80. Why are only the extremist actions of the Palestinians discussable?

Because they and their Arab brethern started this war and they target innocent Israelis to this day.

[Darranar]

81. They started it! Their war crimes are worse than ours!

Both sides can make rational cases for both of the things above. IMO, both sides started it, and since one side's war crimes don't justify that of the other, it shouldn't matter which ones were worse.