Al-Qaeda calls for Palestine jihad

[oberliner]

The occupied Palestinian territories will be liberated through jihad, not elections, according to a senior al-Qaeda leader.

Ayman al-Zawahiri, regarded as the right-hand man to Osama bin Laden, made his comments in a video shown by Al Jazeera on Wednesday.

In the video, al-Zawahiri said: "Any road other than jihad will only lead to loss."

He also said: "Those trying to liberate the land of Islam through elections based on secular constitutions or on decisions to surrender Palestine to the Jews will not liberate a grain of sand of Palestine."

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/CA6B3801-5119-4136-8DCF-4EA04F24CB50.htm

[Turbineguy]

1. So I guess an intifada

is jihad on lorazipam.

That didn't work either.

[Cary]

2. It would be truly interesting if the "Palestinians" . . .

conducted a Gandhi-style, non-violent revolution.

The fact they haven't and don't appear to be willing to conduct a non-violent revolution definitively answers the matter for me.

[Phx_Dem]

3. uh-oh, you said "Palestinians"

:popcorn:

[Violet_Crumble]

4. You don't see where the problem is with it? n/t

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Phx_Dem]

8. I don't put quotes around the term.

and I have no idea why my prior response was deleted. Could a mod send me a PM, I could use some clarification.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

17. I didn't ask you whether or not you put quotes round the term...

I asked you what was with that popcorn icon? Is the denial of the existance of a people like the Palestinians amusing or something?

[number6]

59. so what do ya think about this "Cary" person

think he/she exists :popcorn:

[Cary]

5. I always say "Palestinians"

They don't recognize Israel. I don't recognize them.

<shrug>

And like hell if I'm going to be intimidated on an internet bulletin board, even if it is DU.

[cali]

6. But why be like that

which you have such contempt for?

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[geek tragedy]

11. Ummmmm, I would guess that Syrians, Lebanese,

and various other assorted folk would beg to differ with you.

:popcorn:

[Violet_Crumble]

15. It should be....

I imagine it would lead to a swift tombstoning if anyone were to carry on like that about Israelis and deny that they exist as a nationality....

[Tom Joad]

16. Golda Meir couldn't post here if we were to ban all such Palestinian deniers.

she flatly denied their existence as a people, and certainly as anyone who had any national rights.
reflecting the mainstream of thought for Israeli political leaders...

otoh, there were people like Judah Magnes and Martin Buber, who thought that Jews and Palestinians should live together as equals. tragically, that was not what happened.

[oberliner]

18. Golda Meir was not a "Palestinian denier" whatever that means

I am sure you have seen her remarks in the NY Times in 1976:

To be misquoted is an occupational hazard of political leadership; for this reason I should like to clarify my position in regard to the Palestinian issue. I have been charged with being rigidly insensitive to the question of the Palestinian Arabs. In evidence of this I am supposed to have said, ‘There are no Palestinians.’ My actual words were: ‘There is no Palestine people. There are Palestinian refugees.’ The distinction is not semantic. My statement was based on a lifetime of debates with Arab nationalists who vehemently excluded a separatist Palestinian Arab nationalism from their formulations.

[Tom Joad]

19. I think your quote actually reinforced what i said. But there is more.

"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to." News reports (8 March 1969)

"Golda" Meir

[oberliner]

22. Golda Meir recongized the Palestinians and Pan-Arab Nationalism

As you no doubt are aware, throughout the 1960s and 1970s the pan-Arab movement was still very much in existance.

Do you think that if Israel had been defeated in the 1967 war that an independant Palestinian state would definitely have been established?

Do you not think it equally or more likely that something similar to the United Arab Republic, which incorporated both Egypt and Syria, might have been established instead?

Did recognizing the United Arab Republic mean that one did not recongize the Egyptian people or the Syrian people?

[The Magistrate]

23. That Statement, Mr. Joad, As You Are Doubtless Aware

Means what was indeed then a fact, that there was no legitimate political entity to which authority in that territory could be turned over to. It did not mean no one was there. Put bluntly, there is not to this day much of a viable political entity authority in existence that territory could be turned over to: the Palestine Authority is the barest embryo of such.

[Violet_Crumble]

26. Golda Meir was not saying NO-ONE was there...

What she was saying in her quote about there not being a Palestinian people was that she refused to acknowledge that a group of people existed called Palestinians. She knew there were people there, but to her they were just Arabs who had no claim to the land whatsoever. Which is just as hateful and extreme as anyone claiming a group of people called Israelis don't exist or don't deserve to exist as a people....

As for the excuse about there being not much of a viable political entity authority in the Occupied Territories, quite bluntly, there was no viable political entity authority in East Timor when it was occupied by Indonesia for the territory to be handed to. A people under brutal occupation tend not to be able to develop the sort of solid and viable government that you are saying the Palestinians should. That development comes AFTER the occupying power has ended the occupation, and I consider it extremely unreasonanble for anyone here to expect the palestinians do what other occupied people aren't expected to do...

[The Magistrate]

39. East Timor, Ma'am

Does not strike me as a particularly good parallel. Though in the condition of a colony of Portugal, it had had a long-standing existance as a political unit seperate from any central Indonesian authority, whether Dutch colonial or the later Republic. Indonesian occupation was genocidal, and not in the "Why, that's just like genocide!" sense, but by actual proportion of corpse to living body. The resistance existing within it was focused solely on vindicating its own independence, and did not muddy the water by displaying intent to diminish Indonesian sovereignty over other portions of that country.

Ms. Meir was certainly an extreme nationalist. She lived through, as a participant, bitter years of conflict with opponents every bit as extreme in their views and commitments as she. People do not generally emerge from such experience with objective and non-judgemental views of their foes, or much inclination to see their side of the dispute.

[Violet_Crumble]

45. It's a very good parallel...

The East Timorese never had any viable political authority during the Indonesian occupation. And the genocidal aspect only came in the last throes of the occupation when Indonesia was losing its grip on East Timor. It didn't happen in the many years prior to that yet there was still no East Timorese viable political authority...

[The Magistrate]

48. Unless My Recollections Are Much In Error, Ma'am

Which is certainly possible, as the area has not greatly engaged my interest save for the period of colonial rule and its dissolution after the Second World War, East Timor had a political existance seperate from the Jakharta government prior to the occupation, and the initial occupation was something of an exercise in massacre on the grand scale. That some quiesence followed this would be normal. And it remains a leading difference that resistance to the occupation expressed no ambitions beyond its independence from the Indonesian government. Large elements of Arab Palestinian political leadership press claims for the diminishment, or even the expungement entire, of the Israeli state. That is a complicating factor in assessing legitimacy, certainly from the Israeli point of view. No one is required to view as legitimate someone who says "My aim is your destruction."

[Violet_Crumble]

50. We're not talking about prior to any occupation...

We're talking about DURING an occupation...

And neither you nor the Israeli govt is required to assess the legitimacy of any govt, just as it wasn't required or needed of Indonesia to assess it in East Timor...

[The Magistrate]

53. The State Of Affairs Prior, Ma'am

Is certainly relevant. What has existed before is a reasonable guide to what can be expected to come after.

Other entities certainly assess the legitimacy of governments. Not all are recognized by everyone, adter all.

[Tom Joad]

33. Any quotes you "can" gather where Golda says acknowledges

any rights for Palestinians? Even the "most" basic human rights? I'm at a loss to find any "myself".

She did refer to them as scurrying like cockroaches.

[The Magistrate]

35. Shall We Then, Mr. Joad

Start collecting and debating all the various slurs against Jews, and advocacy of their maltreatment, bandied about by various Arab Nationalist leaders and local Moslem religious leaders down the years, and well into the present? You know perfectly well there is a tremendous volumn of them.

Demonization of either side serves no good purpose, save perhaps for stamping those who engage in it as being more interested in raising heat than shedding on the matter.

By the way, Sir, why do enclose your reference to yourself in ironic quotes? Are we to doubt your existance?

[Violet_Crumble]

46. For goodness sake...

How is pointing out that Golda Meir was a nasty bigot and extremist by using her quotes 'demonising'? It's not. The discussion in this thread is specifically about Golda Meir, so to be annoyed that we're talking about her quotes is kind of strange, imo.....

You may not have noticed this, Magistrate, but in this forum there are quite a few instances of posters who have gathered quotes by various Palestinians and/or Muslim leaders that are slurs against Jews. I figure you must not have been around to read them as I can't recall you making yr comment to them about it...

[The Magistrate]

47. My Attendance Here Has Been Sporadic Of Late, Ma'am

Doubtless much has escaped my notice.

Ms. Meir is as much of, and no more of, a bigot than her contemporary opponents, and as much of and no more of a bigot than many persons on both sides on the scene after her death and into the present day. This makes the claim "she is a nasty bigot" about as interesting as observing she had grey hair while Prime Minister. Bigotry matters only when it can be demonstrated it predominates on one side, and is largely absent on the other, for then one can say a stand with the latter is a stand against it. That demonstration cannot be made in this matter, and so one cannot properly characterize a stand favoring either side as a stand against bigotry.

[Violet_Crumble]

49. I wasn't talking about lately...

I'm talking back in the days of some now-tombstoned DUers who did it on a very regular basis...

Bigotry matters only when it can be demonstrated it predominates on one side, and is largely absent on the other, for then one can say a stand with the latter is a stand against it.

That comment has to be one of the more disturbing things I've read in this forum for a while. Bigotry does matter, and bigots mustn't be given free passes coz someone else was just as bigoted as them..

[The Magistrate]

56. Why It Disturbs You, Ma'am, Escapes Me

Where both sides display bigotry in signifigant measure, the bigotry of one cannot be offered as a reason to stand with the other, and such a stand alongside what is merely one of two sides displaying bigotry cannot be presented as a stand in opposition to bigotry.

[Cary]

41. I believe Golda also said that there would be peace as soon as . .

the Palestinians learned to love their children as much as the Israelis loved theirs.

The problem runs deeper than a lack of a legitimate political entity. The lack of a legitimate political entity is not the problem, but rather one of the symptoms of the problem.

I really wish to not make any ethnic slurs against Arabs. I know Arabs who live in the U.S., and they're perfectly delightful people. I don't believe the problems in the Middle East are due to any inherent defect in Arabs. In fact I don't believe in bloodlines at all. We share more than 98% of our DNA with Chimpanzees, for goodness sake.

There is something to Friedmans statement about seeking justice and I do believe that goes to the core of this.

The answer, I don't know.

[oberliner]

24. In regard to your quote

Your Golda Meir quote omits the third sentence. It should read: "How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to. We can't send it to Nasser by parcel post".

Of course, she was referencing the fact that no one on the Egyptian side or indeed any of the other countries involved in the 1967 war would negotiate with Israel.

The "nobody to return them to" refers to the fact that no leader will sit down and talk to her to negotiate a peace settlement, not that there are no Palestinians. Reading the quote in its full context makes that clear.

[Violet_Crumble]

25. 'There is no Palestinian people?'

That sounds exactly like it's denying the existance of the Palestinians as a people. In fact, that is what she's arguing...

[Cary]

31. There is an argument to be made that there is no "Palestinian" people.

Look closely at what Arafat was and who he was. Then tell me where the legitimacy comes from.

Legitimate "Palestinians" have yet to find legitimate leadership. I still like Friedman's observation. There is no Lincoln. There is no North. The Arabs as a people are, unfortunately, more akin to a civil war between the South and the South.

There is no future in seeking "justice" in the Middle East. Everyone has been wronged. Everyone wants "justice".

[The Magistrate]

36. There Is No Good Argument To Be Made For That Proposition, Sir

People argue all sorts of propositions that are far from accurate or factual, and for a variety of reasons.

The line from Mr. Friedman's recent coluimn you are quoting, for example, was in reference to the present situation in Iraq, and in reading the piece certainly did not strike me as being meant to extend beyond that place. Some of his other statements were more general in application, such as the proposition that what political leaders may say in private in English means nothing compared to what they say in public in Arabic....

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Magistrate]

40. You May Need To Trot That Objective Argument Out, Sir

For there is not a sound one for the proposition known to me....

[Cary]

44. "Reasonably objective" is not a very high standard.

I believe I have met it already. I believe the nationality is Arab. "Palestine" was never a nation. It was a region. Before Israel won the 1967 war, there was no "Palestine". There was no talk of either Gaza or the West Bank being "Palestine" as far as I know.

In the original partition, Jordan was supposed to be "Palestine".

The arguments go on and on. I don't make them up but I don't think you come close to making any case that these arguments aren't reasonably objective.

For me the bottom line is that "Palestinians" have to move forward from their original intent.

And I do note the fact that everyone always ignores the fact that there are 1 million Palestinian citizens of Israel. The fact that they enjoy full citizenship, even if there are still problems, puts Israel lightyears ahead of every Arab nation.

Oh, and not all "Palestinians" have legitimate claims to historical roots in the region they're fighting over. So I dont' see how it isn't a double standard to not include the significant number of displaced Middle East Jews who came to Israel as having legitimate historical roots in the region. They are certainly as "legitimate" as "Palestinians" who are outcasts from other Arab nations.

As I said, there is no question that Israel is lightyears ahead of any nation in the Middle East. There would be peace if that was truly what Arabs wanted.

[The Magistrate]

52. This Is Pretty Thin Gruel, Sir

Perhaps the best point to begin with is your contention regarding Jordan. The claim that "In the original partition, Jordan was supposed to be 'Palestine'" is false. England created Jordan, originally as the Emirate of Trans-Jordan, to provide itself a means of maintaining order among Bedouin tribes who were at the time prone to raids into Syria under pretext of resisting the French quashing of the Arab Kingdom at Damascus the English had briefly installed Feisal in. Since these originated in land nominally under English control, but actually un-garrisoned, and relations between England and France were growing quite tense in the Middle East for a variety of reasons we need not explore here at length just now, it was of great importance to England to do something to reduce this particular irritant, and the establishment of an Arab government under Feisal's brother Adbullah was the means chosen. Abdullah was not eager to take the job, and did not like the boundaries, as they did not include Jerusalem and cut him off completely from the Mediterranean. Among the mollifications offered him was an assurance no part of the "Jewish national home" envisioned in the Balfour Declaration would involve his territory. At no time was it stated by the English authorities the entire territory west of the river would become thus that "national home". Nor did the Balfour declaration have the slightest legal standing at that point, being merely a declaration of the policy of an English government currently in office. It acquired legal standing only by its incorporation in the Palestine Mandate granted England by the League of Nations, which occured after the creation of Trans-Jordan. The incorporation of the Balfour language in the Mandate was conditioned by an English 'White Paper', the gist of which was summed up at the time by Churchill as indicating that anyone who imagined that in consequence of the direction to create a Jewish national home in Palestine it was to become as Jewish as Manchester was English was very much mistaken.

There was only ever one partition of the Palestine Mandatory Territory, and that was the one directed by the United Nations in 1947 on the occassion of the Mandate's dissolution. This cleaved the area into a Jewish Zone and an Arab Zone, with Jerusalem set aside as an International City, and envisioned the establishment of two seperate states, with certain interlockings regarding customs, posts, and the like. Zionist leadership formally accepted the Partition and acted to declare themselves a state: the Arab Nationalist leadership in Palestine rejected it and chose to go to war to establish itself over the whole of the territory. Neighboring Arab governments went to war both to destroy the "Zionist entity" and to occupy whatever they could seize of the Arab Zone for themselves. Trans-Jordan was particularly intent on preventing the establishment of any government under the leadership of the Grand Mufti al'Husseini, whom King Abdullah hated with a passion. The hostilities ended with the Arab Zone occupied variously by Israel, Jordan, and Egypt, and Jerusalem occupied by Israel and Trans-Jordan. All these occupied areas were incorporated into the territories of the occupying state, with the incorporation by Irael receiving some degree of international recognition that has persisted down to this day, and those of Jordan and Egypt being regarded more dubiously. Both Arab powers exerted themselves to quash any development of Arab Palestinian statehood, while fostering Arab Palestinian revanchism directed against Israel.

To claim that this unhappy history, comprised of mis-judgement, defeat, and even elements of fraternal betrayal, somehow establishes that there is no, and has never been any, national conciousness among the people of Arab Palestine is simply nonesense: it simply establishes that that people has never been able to give effective expression to that national national consciousness in political institutions exercising sovereignty.

You may forgive me for not devoting further time to consideration of the question of Pan-Arabism, and the various peculiarist Arab nationalisms within it in the course of the twentieth century, and closing here with that matter left untouched.

[oberliner]

32. Palestinian leaders made the same argument

Many Palestinian leaders expressed a pan-Arab identification which transcended the artificial boundaries created by previous colonial rulers.

This formulation was neither hateful nor racist.

[The Magistrate]

58. They Did So At Various Times, Sir

When it suited particular political conditions and seemed a way to advance an immediate political end. They were not statements to be taken as indicating facts of political geography.

[cali]

27. Not so.

People have regularly asserted that Israel has no legitimacy. Right here on DU. That in itself does not appear to get people tombstoned. Just out of curiosity, do you really believe, as your post indicates, that the administration and mods, are biased, and apply the rules unfairly?

[Violet_Crumble]

43. self-delete n/t

[Lithos]

21. How utterly Westphalian of you

Quoting Thomas Friedman earns no credit as he has demonstrated himself a total hack time and time again with his extremely simplistic and cliched globalism models. The world isn't flat, it's Mr. Friedman who is flat.

As a comment, the term Arab means really nothing but a loose sense of identification based on heritage and tradition. It does not imply a singular heritage, nor a common language (Arabic speakers often have problems understanding each others dialects), it does not imply religion as there are Arab Christians and before 1948 Mizrahi were sometimes called Arab Jews, nor does it imply anything political - all attempts at pan-Arabism have proven complete disasters. Another non I/P modern comparison I can think of would be those countries which still identify themselves as part of the British Commonwealth.

As for a Palestinian Nationalist Identity, the general consensus among historians is such an identification was significant by 1920 and was generally accepted by the start of the 1936 Civil Unrest. The fact it did not bear fruition in 1947/48 has little to do with the legitimacy of such a claim, but rather the fortunes of war.

L-

[Cary]

30. What makes you think I seek "credit"?

I state my opinion. I believe my arguments are reasonably objective. I believe Friedman's argument to likewise be reasonably objective. That doesn't mean either he or I are always correct. It is irrational to even suggest that.

You really ought to leave the ego baiting thing to the neocons.

[geek tragedy]

10. Yikes.

:popcorn:

Note: I have never and will never use that reference myself.

[Violet_Crumble]

13. So what's with the popcorn icon, then? n/t

[Tom Joad]

20. What's wrong with "popcorn"?

Can't we just all "get along"?

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tom Joad]

12. One of the few people i'd like to see chat in person.

Must be fun to see you put those quotes in the air with your fingers all the time.

can't help but think of the austin powers movie when i visualize that.
Hint: http://youtube.com/watch?v=r4W0t_fWJoE about 30 seconds in (watch him say "laser")

Now you have fun too, okay?

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tom Joad]

34. The Occupation forces will not allow the garbage trucks to pass.

[Cary]

38. Which is why I suggest that passive resistance would be more effective.

[Tom Joad]

54. Why any resistance at all. Are you suggesting that Israel is doing something wrong?

How can that be so?

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Magistrate]

42. Good Lord, Mr. Joad! Is There No Horror That Goes Un-Done?

Is there never any rest from the keenest pitch of indignation?

"The keenest of pains is pleasure prolonged without release."

[Violet_Crumble]

51. And when will you be asking the same of pro-Israeli posters here?

I won't hold my breath waiting for that, even though they're guilty of exactly the same thing as what you accuse Tom of...

[The Magistrate]

57. The Daily Presentation Of Trifles As Horrors, Ma'am

Has never much engaged my interest here, whatever side presents it.

[Tom Joad]

55. Have you been in occupied Palestine, Mr. The Magistrate?