Sheetrit: We should level Gaza neighborhoods

[Scurrilous]

Stormy cabinet session opens government's week, as ministers call for stronger retaliation against Qassam fire. 'We have to set a clear goal,' says Transportation Minister Mofaz. 'Any other country would have already gone in and level the area,' adds interior minister

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3504922,00.html

<snip>

"Tempers heated Sunday as cabinet ministers discussed the ongoing Qassam fire on Sderot and the situation in Gaza.

Interior Minister Meir Sheetrit suggested obliterating a Gaza neighborhood in response to Saturday's Qassam fire on Sderot, saying "any other country would have already gone in and level the area, which is exactly what I thing the IDF should do – decide on a neighborhood in Gaza and level it."

Israel, he added should provide residents with due warning: "We should let them know 'you have to leave, this area will be taken down tomorrow' and just take it down – that will show them we mean business. Sporadic actions are good," added Sheetrit, "but they're not good enough."

[Warren Stupidity]

1. 'level a neighborhood' would be a war crime.

But that has become a bit irrelevant in this modern world.

[subsuelo]

75. never stopped either side before

why should it now

[PDJane]

2. If they should level entire neighbourhoods

because of Quassam fire, what are the Palestinians entitled to do to Israel for a brutal 40-year occupation? Just asking.

[AnOhioan]

3. Thanks for asking the obvious

[oberliner]

29. Well, the Palestinians have already blown up busses, pizza places, and dance clubs

Did the brutal 40-year occupation entitle them to murder those innocent Israeli (and American) citizens?

Just asking.

[PDJane]

31. Considering their death toll is more than 10 times the Israelis......

And considering that the Israelis are on their territory, yes. The human rights abuses just keep piling up, too...at checkpoints, at Jews-only highways, during the raids on Palestinian terroritory, during the building of the wall.

The Israelis are not innocent, nor are they just fighting back....they are disobeying international law and destroying the people and the environment.

[hack89]

35. So this is a fairness issue - need to equalize the body counts? nt

[PDJane]

36. Well, that's deliberately obtuse...........eom.

[oberliner]

40. I'm sorry, are you saying that Palestinians are entitled to kill Israeli civilians?

Are you answering "yes" to that question?

[PDJane]

69. No. But Israelis aren't entitled to kill Palestinian civilians

either, and most Palestinians are civilians. They are, if fighters, freedom fighters and not an organized and well-armed military. The Israelis do have such an army, and they are indiscriminate.

[mike_c]

4. collective punishment of civilians is a war crime....

eom

[Igel]

6. Unfortunately, communal punishment is a tradition.

One that is sufficiently different from collective punishment for people to fit whole cultures and religions into. Wrongly, in my humble opinion, but what does that matter?

When communalist policies achieve the same status as collective policies, there'll be a settlement. Until then, there's the grounds for not just moral justification of some abhorrent policies, but grounds for claiming them as the moral high ground.

[oberliner]

30. Shooting rockets at civilians is also a war crime

When will the leaders of Hamas be held accountable?

[Waya]

64. When Israel gets back behind its borders.........

..........eases the stranglehold on Gaza, gets out of the West bank and takes their illegal settlers with them - maybe then...............

[oberliner]

65. Hopefully a two-state solution will be negotiated soon

But do you honestly think that Hamas will be held accountable for its actions once a peace agreement is reached between Israelis and Palestinians?

[Waya]

84. Does it matter?

Once there is a true peace agreement - maybe, maybe not. I'm all for holding Hamas to account if Israel is held to account also. If Israel isn't - Hamas shouldn't be. Once there is peace - go from there and let the past go.

[Vegasaurus]

66. Even if they take their settlers, it's pretty doubtful that much will change

Take a look at Gaza.

No settles, plenty of rockets.

[Douglas Carpenter]

78. Israel withdrew the settlements from the Gaza - and doubled the settlement construction plans in

the West Bank:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/27/AR2005082701113_pf.html

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/12/26/news/mideast.php

Including a whole new settlement in the Jordan Valley. That's a long, long way from the Green Line. link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6210721.stm

There are approximately 450,000 Israeli settlers in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem. According to B'tselem: The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights, " the built-up area of the settlements in the West Bank covers 1.7 percent of the West Bank, the settlements control 41.9 percent of the entire West Bank".* ( http://www.btselem.org/English/Maps/Index.asp )

With the construction of massive new highways and expansion of the massive settlements surrounding Jerusalem...unimpeided access between a Palestinian capital in East Jerusalem and the rest of the West Bank is becoming increasingly unlikely:

New segregated Road being built cuts off East Jerusalem and divides the West Bank
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/11/world/middleeast/11road.html?_r=2&pagewanted=2&ei=5070&en=22948d4799a34065&ex=1187496000&emc=eta1&oref=slogin&oref=slogin



"The Americans demanded from Sharon contiguity for a Palestinian state," said Shaul Arieli, a reserve colonel in the army who participated in the 2000 Camp David negotiations and specializes in maps. "This road was Sharon’s answer, to build a road for Palestinians between Ramallah and Bethlehem but not to Jerusalem. This was how to connect the West Bank while keeping Jerusalem united and not giving Palestinians any blanket permission to enter East Jerusalem."

<snip>

"To Daniel Seidemann, a lawyer who advises an Israeli advocacy group called Ir Amim, which works for Israeli-Palestinian cooperation in Jerusalem, the road suggests an ominous map of the future. It is one in which Israel keeps nearly all of East Jerusalem and a ring of Israeli settlements surrounding it, providing a cordon of Israelis between largely Arab East Jerusalem and the rest of the West Bank, which will become part of a future Palestinian state."

<snip>

"To me, this road is a move to create borders, to change final status," Mr. Seidemann said, referring to unresolved issues regarding borders, refugees and the fate of Jerusalem. "It’s to allow Maale Adumim and E1 into Jerusalem but be able to say, ‘See, we’re treating the Palestinians well — there’s geographical contiguity.’ "

Measure it yourself, he said. "The Palestinian road is 16 meters wide," or 52 feet, he added. "The Israeli theory of a contiguous Palestinian state is 16 meters wide."

"In the end, he said, “there is no Palestinian state, even though the Israelis speak of one.” Instead, he said, “there will be a settler state and a Palestinian built-up area, divided into three sectors, cut by fingers of Israeli settlement and connected only by narrow roads.”"

link: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/11/world/middleeast/11road.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2&ei=5070&en=22948d4799a34065&ex=1187496000&emc=eta1&oref=slogin

-------

Settlement expansion actually massively exhilarated after the signing of the Oslo Accord in September 1993 resulting in increasing the number of setters by approximately 90% by the time of the Camp David 2000 talks.

.

[Waya]

85. Maybe no settlers............... anymore,

....but plenty of collective punishment and what borders on war crimes. If it's ok to punish the Palestinian population collectively for rockets launched by Hamas, I guess it's ok for the Israeli population to be punished collectively for the occupation. You know, what's good for the goose.... and all that.

[pelsar]

5. just out of curiosity...

given the remarks here..anybody think that the residents of sederot and the people in the area shouldnt be like ducks in a shooting range?......and if not, what should they/IDF/GOI do?

[Warren Stupidity]

7. Gaza is routinely bombarded, invaded, and leveled.

Did you want to compare casualty figures between Gaza and the Israeli towns near Gaza? No?

[pelsar]

8. wasnt my question....

care to answer it directly? (I've got odds going that no one will actually dare to answer it...)

[Warren Stupidity]

9. They aren't 'like sitting ducks'.

The IDF has been bombarding, invading, and levelling Gaza on a regular basis. Gaza is surrounded on three sides by one of the strongest military forces in the world. Describing the Israeli towns near Gaza as 'sitting ducks' is ludicrous. Perhaps you want to rephrase your question?

[pelsar]

13. its actually a quote..

from the residents of Sederot....they are bombed daily with rockets that hit their city randomly for the past 2 years........ perhaps playing russian roulette is a better description?

anyways call it what you would like, the question still stands......about the IDF/GOI

[sabbat hunter]

33. actually only on two sides

Israel to the east and north, the sea to the west and Egypt is to the south.

[Warren Stupidity]

37. Actually on three sides.

The sea access from Gaza is controlled by Israeli naval forces.

[breakaleg]

10. You ask the same question in every thread whether it's related to the topic at hand or not.

[pelsar]

11. and only...

VC has had the "guts to answer it....

do you want to try?

reminds me of Gazas southern border...how many threads did i have mentioning how egypt controls their own border?....and how many times was i told, israel has troops there, israel has cameras, israel controls egypt, israel will bomb egypt.....

and what happened?...hamas breaks it down and egypt decides to rebuild threatening to break the legs of any Palestinian who crosses.
______

[breakaleg]

12. I think many people have answered, including myself, but you didn't like those answers so you

pretend they don't exist.

[pelsar]

14. i have yet to see a direct answer

one that can be applied tomorrow that will affect the kassams......

i get a lot vague:...israel must break the cycle of violence (example please?)...israel must withdraw (duh what was gaza?)....and best of all i get the "i already answered that "..and there will be 10 posts about that as opposed to simply repeating the answer.....

what was your answer for the citizens of sederot again?

[Warren Stupidity]

15. They aren't like sitting ducks in a shooting range.

Your question has been answered, you just don't like the answer.

[pelsar]

16. so the answer is ...

and here i'm just guessing because i really dont see it....but are you saying that since the IDF is "leveling gaza" that is how they are protecting the citizens of sederot?

perhaps you can write it like i'm a 10year old?...i dont really understand answers that are less than direct.....
___

as far as the "sitting ducks go"...i was just quoting the residents of Sederot...i realize that you might know better than they do....but i'm curious as to why you think they believe what they do?
____

on the other hand if you want to say that they deserve it..then say so using plain simple english.

[Warren Stupidity]

17. No the answer is that they are not like ducks in a shooting gallery

so your question is based on a faulty assumption.

[pelsar]

48. if they arent "sitting ducks"...

as the residents of sederot have described themselves....would you say that they are hysterical?...perhaps lying (for tax breaks?).....or perhaps you have a third explanation for their remarks?

[Warren Stupidity]

70. They are misrepresenting their situation.

Or perhaps they do not understand the phrase 'sitting duck'. Describing a settlement protected by one of the foremost military forces on the planet as 'sitting ducks' is absurd.

[Vegasaurus]

71. If those "foremost military forces on the planet"

were to act as a true military protecting its citizens, the entire world would be shrieking.

So, the military acts impotently, or does a strike here or there in response to the rockets.

Most people would prefer the military did nothing, and just let the rockets rain on down.

So, what good is the military, strong or not, if it is not allowed to protect its citizens?

[Warren Stupidity]

72. So, the military acts impotently, or does a strike here or there in response to the rockets.

Really? I must live on the other planet where Gaza is routinely invaded, bombarded, rocketed, where entire neighborhoods are bulldozed and/or destroyed by armored units, where routinely civilians are slaughtered from a distance on the off chance that a target of interest might be nearby, and the world says nothing. Israel has refused to even consider a truce or cease fire negotiation with the government of Gaza.

[pelsar]

73. yes you obviously do live on a different planet...

where entire neighborhoods are bulldozed..... .....where....when?.......

[azurnoir]

23. Reopen the Rafah border

Seemed to work a couple weeks ago LOL.

And as to the citizens of Sderot what was Israel's answer when at least some of them asked to be relocated in safer area's?
If I remember correctly the was NO, we can not appear weak or it is against policy, the only help they received was from a reputed Russian Mobster, so really who is endangering them? the Palestinians or the Israeli government-both?
So I will repeat and take it a step further Israel is regardless of race, ethnic, or national origin consciously keeping its citizens in harms way, both by military (stomp with big boot) and political policy (we will never negotiate or let up)

So if Israel wants to destroy more of Gaza and with it more Gazan lives, I am sure it will make the parents of the 8yr old who lost his leg, feel so much better. Even more destruction and death always does the trick:sarcasm:

[pelsar]

25. reopen the rafah border...

are you still claiming that israel controls it?

[azurnoir]

44. Did I ever claim that?

Nope do not think so, I have claimed that the US and through it Israel, can pressure Egypt if that is what you call control, as in "rumors" of aid cuts from the US after video of Egyptian soldiers or border guards "allowing" arms smuggling into Gaza was pasted around.

[pelsar]

47. i always like this part..

so all of the egyptians remarks about 'breaking their legs".....etc was really just israel telling the americans, telling the egyptians what to do and say....

i wonder if the egyptians know that they are mere puppets of israel?

[kayecy]

51. And I like this 'breaking their legs stuff' - sounds like Rabin all over again....

Poor Gazans! First Rabin now the Egyptians threating to break their bones.

[azurnoir]

63. Interpet however you like or need

"breaking legs"????? is your addition not mine

[ProgressiveMuslim]

32. Pelsar, you are outrageously disengenuous.

You know FULL WELL that Hamas has been calling for a negotiated truce.

Israel rejects it outright.

It's all over the Israeli press.

Cut the crap, dude.

[pelsar]

46. actually they've called for hudna...

and they're past record is clear (as is that of the PA)....."we may sort of not shoot...but those other guys (islamic jihad, etc)..well they can go on shooting because we dont control them ....."

we've been there, fell for it a couple of times. If hamas is serious, then its simple: dont shoot (i think that goes under the "break the cycle theme, one of those things yet to be tried)

[ProgressiveMuslim]

49. So you admit they've called for hudna.

So... why not?

If a negotiated ceasefire isn't acceptable, what is?

To quote a frequent poster here: now we get down to it...

What goes your gov't want?

They want to crush Hamas.

[Vegasaurus]

54. Hamas can't control their own "military wing"

(as if the whole bloody government isn't a military wing), much less all the dozens or more other splinter terrorist and militant groups.

Who the hell cares about Hamas's big generous "hudna" offer? It isn't worth the breath it takes to say it, or the ink it would waste writing it. So if the rockets keep falling, but they aren't "Hamas's militant wing's" rockets, there is no ceasefire.

If Hamas actually wanted to stop the rockets, they could. They obviously want to keep up the conflict as long as possible.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

50. more on that.

Nice to know I'm in good company with Ali Abunimah...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article9290.shtml

Last December, Haaretz reported that Hamas had secured the agreement of all factions to end rocket fire on Israel, provided Israel reciprocated. Hamas was also engaged in indirect negotiations for the release of Palestinian political prisoners in exchange for an Israeli prisoner of war held in Gaza.

Olmert rejected the December ceasefire offer. "The State of Israel," he said, "has no interest in negotiating with entities that do not recognize the Quartet demands." In other words there could be no ceasefire until Hamas unilaterally accepted all of Israel's demands before negotiations could even begin.

The problem was not that Israeli officials did not believe Hamas could deliver. Barak was reported to be in favor of considering a hudna -- a renewed truce, and a "senior Israeli security official" told Haaretz that "There's no doubt that Hamas is capable of forcing a let-up on Islamic Jihad and the other small factions in the Strip ... It won't be a 100 percent decrease, but even 98 percent would be a big change." ("Olmert rejects Hamas cease-fire offer," Haaretz, 25 December 2007).

If even Israel believed that Hamas could reliably enforce a truce, why does it refuse to accept one? Why has it refused to engage with Hamas, as American and British policy-makers did with the IRA?

For Israel the potential that Hamas could turn to politics presents a threat, not an opportunity. Israel has no interest in facing Palestinian leaders who are at once committed to basic Palestinian rights, capable of delivering, and enjoy popular legitimacy and support.

So instead of engaging with Hamas, the US and Israel announced a complete boycott which was intended to turn the Palestinian population against the movement.

At the same time, the peace process show relaunched in Annapolis last November, followed by the international donors meeting in Paris where pledges of cash were showered on the Palestinian Authority to elevate the unelected, Israeli-backed Ramallah "government" of Mahmoud Abbas and Salam Fayyad in the eyes of Palestinians. With this renewed patronage and prestige, Abbas and company were to be pushed to sign a deal giving up Palestinian refugee rights and agreeing to a Palestinian Bantustan under permanent Israeli domination.

Of course much more than Hamas stands in the way of the fulfillment of this Israeli fantasy. The Palestinian people would unite against such a deal. But Hamas is the most visible and well-organized obstacle.

Rather than breaking under pressure, Hamas has made some impressive tactical gains, even as Gaza's agony increases. Even the dubious opinion polls that come out of EU-funded non-governmental organizations showed Hamas enjoying an upsurge of support after the breach of the Gaza-Egypt border. But with Israel and its backers steadfast in refusing to grant Hamas a political role, not even in operating the border crossings, the movement has no way to translate these tactical victories into strategic gains. Except for one: in the arena of world public opinion.

Israel and Egypt, the two countries most responsible for the blockade of Gaza, were deeply embarrassed by the popular surge that temporarily broke the siege. No recent event has done as much to bring attention to the plight of Palestinians and expose Israel's crimes to international scrutiny. But one such action is not enough; already, Israel and Egypt with support from the quisling regime in Ramallah, the EU and the US are trying to reimpose the blockade. (In a repulsive echo of Yitzhak Rabin's infamous order to Israeli soldiers during the first Intifada to break the bones of Palestinians, Egypt's foreign minister Ahmed Aboul Gheit promised to do the same to Palestinians if they continued to enter Egypt.)

Some Hamas leaders appear to understand the necessity and indeed the risks of mass, nonviolent resistance. "The next time there is a crisis in the Gaza Strip, Israel will have to face half a million Palestinians who will march toward Erez ," said Ahmed Yousef, a senior advisor to Ismail Haniyeh. "This is not an imaginary scenario and many Palestinians would be prepared to sacrifice their lives." Properly planned, repeated mass actions of this kind could galvanize public opinion in Arab and European countries and even North America forcing some governments to abandon the pro-Israel consensus.

But here is where the great danger lies: with its escalation in Gaza and refusal to accept a ceasefire, Israel may be trying to provoke more rocket attacks and force Hamas into abandoning its political strategy altogether to provide the needed pretext to "decapitate" the organization. Unfortunately, there are signs that Hamas is jumping into the trap.

Some Hamas political leaders appeared to have been taken by surprise when the movement's military wing took credit for a suicide attack inside Israel for the first time since 2004. The attack in the Israeli town of Dimona on 6 February killed an elderly woman as well as the bomber. As a consequence of Israel's and the "international community's" rejection of all of Hamas' political initiatives, those within the organization advocating a resumption of full-scale armed struggle may be gaining the upper hand.

If they make such a tragic miscalculation, Israeli leaders may breathe a sigh of relief. After all, Israel is much more comfortable with rockets falling on Sderot, than it would be with hundreds of thousands of Palestinian civilians marching on the checkpoints in Gaza or the West Bank.

The next logical step is for all Palestinian leaders still loyal to their people's cause to work together to mobilize the population, not to gain factional advantage, but to expose Israeli apartheid to a sustained and irresistible surge of people power.

Co-founder of The Electronic Intifada, Ali Abunimah is author of One Country: A Bold Proposal to End the Israeli-Palestinian Impasse (Metropolitan Books, 2006).

[pelsar]

53. i think the solution is easy....

hamas just stops everybody from shooting....they can call it what they like. If israel is hypocritical then israel will keep on shooting....

and until that actually happens all the articles in the world are no more than just words....the "proof is in the pudding'. Whereas israel has tried multiple things since leaving gaza, from sonic booms to warning shells.....to small barages...the result has been the same: kassams.
---

this is rather "funny"
Israel may be trying to provoke more rocket attacks and force Hamas into abandoning its political strategy altogether to provide the needed pretext to "decapitate" the organization. Unfortunately, there are signs that Hamas is jumping into the trap.

the author must think that hamas are a bunch of idiotes.....hamas choses their strategy based on their beliefs....they know perfectly well how israel will react

[pelsar]

59. i do however notice a consistency....

the preparation that if the million man march doesnt happen and the rockets still fly its israels fault because

Israel may be trying to provoke more rocket attacks and force Hamas into abandoning its political strategy

this is part of the "arabs somehow can do anything on their own" mentality. No one will force hamas to change their strategy, if they do so its because they have decided to....they are big boys and can make their own decisions......

[ProgressiveMuslim]

60. That's not what Abunimah is suggesting.

You never answered my question:

Why does Israel not go the hudna route?

[pelsar]

67. two possible reasons...

the first is my belief....that even before the ink dries the agreed upon conditions are broken....pick an agreement, pick a side and it wont be hard to find where a side ignored the agreement. ...i do believe its part of the middle east culture btw....Rabin once mentioned it (i'll go into it a bit later...as there is a certain middle eastern logic to it).

reason 2,politics for both sides......hamas suggestion, Israeli rejection

-----

anyway i dont think any kind of agreement is needed. Israel claims its only "shooting back" (which until proven otherwise is what i believe)....so if hamas believes that its not true all they have to do is stop shooting for a week. I mean if israel doesnt stop then they can always pick up where they left off....

[ProgressiveMuslim]

68. "only shooting back."

That would make sense if you saw the core issue as Israel's brutal retaliation.

Hamas fires Kassams. Israel shoots back. Hamas stops. Problem solved.

But the problem is not the closure. It's the siege. it's the destruction of Gaza's economy. It's the willful overturning of free and fair elections. It's the coup attempt the Israel and the US backed with Dahlan in Gaza. It's the West's desire to separate the WB and Gaza (and disgusting Abu Mazen's unconscionable collaboration with it). It's Israel's refusal to seriously ACT to implement all the blah blah blah that the blowhards come up with.

What was the headline today: by the end of the year there will be agreement on principals? RU fucking kidding me?

I'm sure from Israel's POV, all would be solved if Hamas would just stop firing the rockets. You could go back to your coffee shops and discos, and forget that your nation's boot lies on the neck of Palestine.

[pelsar]

74. by the end of the year there will be agreement on principals

RU fucking kidding me?...yea that too was my reaction.....

your not going to get to the core issue in one shot.....its just way way to sensitive to both sides. fuk the west, Dahlan etc...hama/gaza has to do what is good for them given the boycotts etc.....break open the barrier to egypt (i doubt you'll get your million man march...)

if the rockets stop...the citizens of sederot and the surrounding kibbutzim will go back to their coffee shops...and maybe they'll renew their initial offer after the withdrawl to work with the gazans....

really what the fuk do they have to lose?.....they can always start up the rockets again.

___

in the paper today: hamas offer of the hudna is for 10 years provided israel withdrawls to 67, full right of return, and E.Jersualem...i guess that means after 10 years they just might start shooting again......sometimes i wonder how smart the hamasnkim are.....we really arent that dumb.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

79. How do you respond to Bernard Avishai's reasoned commentary?

PRESUMABLY, A MILITARY operation would root out Hamas and destroy terrorist cells—surgery followed by chemotherapy. Israel would enter Gaza in force and engage Hamas fighters on the ground. It would kill as many Hamas leaders as it could find and destroy the factories that make the rockets. Israel would then allow, even encourage, donor nations to invest in rehabilitating Gaza infrastructure. And in that context, Hanegbi concluded, Israel would probably agree to a sizable multi-national force, like the one in southern Lebanon, to enter Gaza and monitor the cease-fire.

Which raises a question. Why not try to get to a general cease-fire and multi-national force without the intervening bloodbath? Hamas, as it happens, has been asking for exactly this. entertain the question, so the argument goes, is to overlook how Hamas is bent on Israel’s destruction, with Iran’s backing, and would use the time to get even stronger. Fine. Leave aside Hamas's aims, which seem more nationalist than jihadist to my Palestinian friends, and stick to the strategic problem. Hamas would of course use the time to increase its capabilities. But the same could be said about Hezbollah in the north, which Israel has concluded a cease-fire with. Nobody imagines that either Hamas or Hezbollah, even strengthened, would ever dream of successfully invading Israel. Their threat is the pain inflicted by their rockets, which a reciprocal cease-fire would stop.

There are a few other things advocates of an invasion are overlooking. Attacking Gaza cannot root out Hamas any more than attacking in south Lebanon rooted out Hezbollah. When guerrillas are the product of a broad based resistance to occupation, and they have nothing to offer but a fight to the finish, attacking them only strengthens them. They throw sucker punches all the time. Besides, Hamas leaders can go underground or escape to Egypt; if you manage to kill them, they will quickly be replaced. How long did it take for Ismail Haniyeh to replace the assassinated Abdel Aziz Rantisi?


The rocket factories will never be shut down, anymore than the tunnels to Egypt will be closed. The only way Israel could ever make a difference on this score is if it would reoccupy Gaza block by block; this would only make Israeli soldiers sitting ducks for suicide bombers. The soldiers could then do what Shitreet says, what enraged people dream of doing, which is to level every block fire is coming from. This is exactly what rightist leader Rehavam Zeevi, himself eventually assassinated in the mounting violence, said at the beginning of the Al-Aqsa Intifada in 2000.


But then you’d have to start leveling virtually all the housing stock in the Gaza Strip. You’d almost certainly have to maim hundreds of children like Oshri, whose torment would be played again and again on televisions around the world. How long, in that case, could such a sickening operation continue? How long, if it did continue, would Abbas’s government survive in the West Bank without repudiating peace negotiations? Abbas, after all, is claiming to be negotiating with a proxy from ordinary Gazans who, in their desperation, will see him as a collaborator. Then again, how long could the Egyptian peace treaty survive an invasion? How long before Hezbollah opened a second front in the north? How long before the boards of global companies started steering investments away from Israeli companies?

BUT THE BIGGEST thing Shitreet is overlooking is that the soldiers who will be ordered into Gaza are children, too. So are those who will happen to be walking near a Hamas commander when the helicopter gunship blows him apart. So, probably, will be the Hamas commander. And so will be the thousands of “wanted militants” whom the army will detain in its various sweeps.


read on...
http://bernardavishai.blogspot.com/

[pelsar]

80. i pretty much agree...

as does most of israel..including the IDF...going in is "easy"....but once there either we have to stay and become once again the occupying force or we leave and the rockets will continue and there will be a new "list" of wanted men. There is no pure military solution..there has to be the political will as well.

and i have no problem with a cease fire....i dont want to hear the words hudna or anything else...nothing written. Unwritten cease fires have happened before. Just stop the damn shootting.......Multinational force i dont agree with.....hizballla under their guise in Lebanon has now rearmed....will they start shooting again (one katusha has already been shot from Lebanon)..Hamas no doubt will do the same....

[pelsar]

81. on the way to work....

i thought of the multinational force.....i would say yes...provided that they live in sederot as the israeli residents do...they can go everyday to do their patrols etc in gaza.

i dont think such a provision however would be agreed to, it wouldnt make the UN personal to happy to be at the receiving end of those "lame rockets".....

[Lithos]

18. I will

They are BOTH wrong and are both examples of collective punishment against civilians (and war crimes). One doesn't excuse the other, either.
L-

[pelsar]

21. thank you...

just looking for a direct response....

[ProgressiveMuslim]

20. See my response below.

Here's a question for you: why do you think the Palestinians shoot rockets?

[pelsar]

22. i was just told..

they shoot most of the rockets in the morning around 8:00am...when the kids are going to school......at least we know what they're aiming at

[ProgressiveMuslim]

27. Too bad your gov't is perfectly willing to tolerate it to maintain the occupation.

Is it worth the price?

[kayecy]

52. Never believe what you "..was just told"......

Never believe what you "..was just told"......
Do you have a reference to back up that claim?

It is unlikely to be true unless the IDF have all their gun-ships flying at 08.00 hours every morning to catch the kid-killer rocketeers.

No don't tell me: The IDF have issued instructions for no gun-ship action at 08.00 in case they hit Palestinian kids and they haven't told the rest of the world because they don't want their actions to be thought of as humane!

[pelsar]

57. well actually....

i was told by my wife who just came from down there...as i told her i was hoping to go this week......shes doing some work there and was told by the "locals" what to expect....

you can believe it or not....its up to you. some of us who actually have to live through the events understand how different the view is from the ground with its actual events than from google....

[kayecy]

62. So are the gun-ships all in the air at 08.00? If not, why not?................. n/t

[pelsar]

76. its the A B Cs of the conflict....

the kassams are many times fired remotely, from neighborhoods (gaza kids also go to school) and from hidden areas......the helicopter pilots dont always see the kassams before they are fired, or they're are too many civilians in the area.....the whole operation can be under 30 seconds

even when you know something is going to happen it cant always be stopped....typical of wars

[subsuelo]

77. You speak as though there is only one view "from the ground"

Surely that is not the case

[ProgressiveMuslim]

19. Simple: accept the fact that there is no military solution to this. Accept the results of a free

and fair internatinally monitored election.

Accept that Israel doesn't get to choose the Palestinian representatives, just as Pals don't choose yours.

Negotiate 2 states on the 1967 border.

Remove settlements.

Leave East Jerusalem to it Arab inhabitants.

Negotiate a just solution to the refugee issue that is mutually agreeable.

Israel will not achieve peace through firepower, no matter how big your guns, no matter how many Palestinian you murder.

In short, We ALL know what the right thing is. DO IT!

[pelsar]

24. does hamas agree?

islamic jihad...do they agree, hizballa, iran (they seem to be involved.....)

choose your own reps...i really dont care if the Palestenains have shari law, make their women wear burkas, stone homosexuals etc....just keep your rockets to yourself....thats the problem.

babysteps PM...we do something...the Palestenains do something GOOD in return (example, we leave gaza, Palestinians build a society there)...then we can do the next one. i believe its called confidence building, unfortunately, without that.....

____

as far a gaza goes there is no military solution...the only solution is for hamas to stop shooting if and when they decide to, they gazans will have a chance at a better life....nothing to complicated in that one. (thats why i liked leaving gaza, its pretty clear whos trying to kill as many innocent civilians and who isnt....)

[ProgressiveMuslim]

26. Bullshit. The last "babysteps" resulted in exponential settlement expansion.

Negotiate for real in good faith with chosen reps.

It's that simple.

[LeftishBrit]

28. I would agree with all of this - with one crucial addition

Hamas - or whoever is the elected government of Palestine - has to guarantee peace in return. I have always opposed the concept of isolating Gaza just because Hamas are in government, or even just because they don't recognize Israel in words. A country's or region's internal affairs should be up to them. But violent *actions*, and direct threats of such actions, by Hamas and Islamic Jihad are another matter.

No country is going to act in ways that will result in even more violence toward it. If the rockets continue (a child just lost a leg to one) and there are threats of suicide bombings, then Israel will not feel safe about ending the Occupation. If they do end it under such circumstances, it will inevitably be with security walls and intense border security.

On the other hand, if there is real peace, then there can be two thriving and secure countries living side by side.

That should be the goal. (And people like Sheetrit are certainly not helping matters - but neither are those who commit violence on the Palestinian side.)

'We ALL know what the right thing is. DO IT'

Agreed - but it applies to both sides.

[sabbat hunter]

34. lets check off your points one by one

1) there should be a fair and internationally monitored election. Will Hamas or Fatah allow this? Fatah is very corrupt and probably would oppose this
2)Both sides should choose their own negotiators, but also must going in unequivically recongize the others right to exist permanently and forever. Unfortunately Hamas has a habit (As did Arafat in the past) of parsing their language so it often came off as a truce/temporary situation. This must change.

3) the 1967 border was merely a truce line. It was never meant to be the permanent borders. That being said, I believe that Israel should pull out of most of the west bank, but allowed to control at least a portion of the highlands for defense purposes, this includes the old city of jerusalem. The old city of Jerusalem was supposed to be an international city under UN auspices. But the UN abbrogated that duty long ago. Only under Israeli control have all religions been allowed in the old city. this is how it must remain. Status quo for the city, including muslim control of the Temple Mount (this despite the fact that it is a jewish holy site as well as a muslim one)


4) see number 3 above. The settlements must be removed to comply with the above.

5) a just settlement of the refugee situation. the original Palestinian refugees should be compensated monetarily. As should the jews that were forced out of the arab countries.
6) the Palestinian people should go to their government, Hamas and tell them to stop the terrorists that send rockets into israel on a daily basis. Arrest them and bring them to trial (in an international court if necessary) This will be a huge step. The people of israel should also go to their government and tell them to allow goods in to Gaza.

[Vegasaurus]

39. Bravo to all points. Well said. nt

[breakaleg]

41. Is there a single point of yours where Israel is not favored? What kind of negotiation

would it be if Israel gets everything it wants and the other has to concede before talks begin? I know, it's been the way it has been up to now and that hasn't worked so well.

[sabbat hunter]

42. what are you talking about

both sides have to recognize each others right to exist.

both sides get to pick their own negotiators.

both sides have anyone kicked out of a country compensated.

how is this one sided?

[breakaleg]

43. well...

There was a fair election.

Recognizing Israel should be a result of an agreement, not a condition. Why give away the store before you’ve gotten a single thing?

When people talk of 67 borders and settlements it’s usually a euphemism for maintaining the status quo of ALL of the settlements.

Where is your requirement that the people of Israel should go to their government and demand they stop the brutal occupation? The roadblocks? The apartheid situation running up and down the West Bank? I won’t go on.

[pelsar]

45. wow.....where did this come from?

Where is your requirement that the people of Israel should go to their government and demand they stop the brutal occupation? The roadblocks? The apartheid situation running up and down the West Bank?

i thought you wrote that its nobody s business what a country does? or is israel your exception because......


your wrote:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x199653#199731
feb 08 08 12:17am

I do not believe that any outside country has the right to step in and tell a country what is best for them

[sabbat hunter]

55. refuting points

I said the following
"the 1967 border was merely a truce line. It was never meant to be the permanent borders. That being said, I believe that Israel should pull out of most of the west bank, but allowed to control at least a portion of the highlands for defense purposes, this includes the old city of jerusalem."

As you can see, I wrote that Israel should pull out of most of the west bank, but allowed part of the highlands for defense purposes. This would make a continuous state on the west bank.

Unless Hamas/PA full recognizes Israel's right to exist permanently, you cannot negotiate. How can you negotiate with someone that doesn't even fully recognize you?

[Vegasaurus]

56. Even weirder is the idea that

recognition comes last. That somehow, the Palestinians want to "negotiate" (whatever that means) with a nonentity, that maybe, sometime in the future, after they have done negotiations, they will decide exists.

I don't know who comes up with this "logic".

[Vegasaurus]

58. What would behoove the Israelis to ask to stop the roadblocks and wall

which have actually saved their lives?

Yes, life is more difficult for the average Palestinian. But fewer Israelis have been blown up, and nations look after their own first. It's just the way it is.

[Sit-rep]

86. Palestinians are visiting genocide upon themselves

For sixty years Arab fedayeen bombed and hid behind shahids.

For sixty years Arab terrorists used ambulances and emergency vehicles to transport troops and equipment.

For sixty years Arab terrorist conducted ops from refugee camps.

For sixty years Arab terrorists hid and conducted ops from apartment buildings with civilians residing there.

For sixty years Arab Terrorist recruited and trained children as shahids, martyrs and combatants.

For these reasons and others what passes for "palestinian" society is in extremis...and the ultimate demise of this "people" is inevitable.

Israel during sixty years of war...built a durable society. In sixty years "palestinians" "ate their young"

[Selatius]

61. The IDF shouldn't be committing the kinds of war crimes Hamas does when it hits civilian centers.

Leveling an entire city in the Gaza strip would be a war crime under international law. It's as deplorable as dropping qassams on civilian centers like Sderot.

[Tom Joad]

38. now you see, there are the Wohlmuth-types in the Israeli government

[Englander]

82. Razing Rafah:Mass Home Demolitions in the Gaza Strip

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2004/rafah1004/

Israeli evades arrest at Heathrow over army war crime allegations

· Retired general tipped off after judge issues warrant
· Ex-commander accused of demolishing Gaza homes

Despite the alleged offences occurring in the Gaza Strip, war crimes law means Britain has a duty to arrest and prosecute alleged suspects if they arrive in Britain. The warrant alleges Mr Almog committed war crimes in the Gaza Strip in 2002 when he ordered the destruction of 59 homes near Rafah, which Palestinians say was in revenge for the death of Israeli soldiers. The warrant was issued by senior district judge Timothy Workman after an application by lawyers acting for Mr Almog's alleged Palestinian victims. According to legal sources, before granting the warrant Mr Workman decided his court had jurisdiction for the offences; that diplomatic immunity did not apply; and there was evidence to support a prima facie case for war crimes.

If Mr Almog had been arrested he would have been bailed on condition that he did not leave Britain. The attorney general would have to have sanctioned any prosecution against him for war crimes.

Mr Almog was commanding officer of the Israeli defence forces' southern command from December 2000 to July 2003. British lawyers representing Palestinians who say they suffered as a result of Mr Almog's orders had presented their evidence to Scotland Yard detectives last month and they began investigating him.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/sep/12/israelandthepalestinians.warcrimes

One step ahead of the bulldozer

by Amira Hass, Haaretz
May 21st, 2004

RAFAH - Palestinian families who live close to the Egyptian border learned the lesson years ago: They keep small bags filled with important documents, some cash and a few sentimental items always ready. Whenever bulldozers plowed toward them, or whenever tank shells crashed nearby, or whenever helicopters hovered above - as happened as recently as May 12 - they grabbed their bags and fled.

But, feeling secure in a relatively quiet part of oft-battered Rafah, members of Wa'il Mansur's family, like those of his parents, grandparents and neighbors, never bothered to pack such bags. They live in the Brazil neighborhood, some 700 meters from the border. A few rows of houses used to stand between their residence and the border. Two such rows have already been razed. Nonetheless, members of Mansur's family reasoned that their residence was far enough from the border to be out of harm's way.

Then, at 8:30 A.M. yesterday, they relate, a huge bulldozer rumbled over neighbors' houses; neighborhood residents fled for their lives. Some ran in their bare feet. Others left behind identification documents, driver's licenses (Mansur is a taxi driver), money, clothes, books. The bulldozer crushed Mansur's cab; it also plowed up a small "zoo" that a neighborhood resident set up two years ago to amuse local kids.

Fortified Israel Defense Forces vehicles, supported by helicopters, set up shop in the Brazil neighborhood at 10 P.M. on Wednesday. Mansur's parents, together with 13 other people, live in a house with an asbestos roof. Mansur's own house, which holds 17 residents, is built of concrete and asbestos. Mansur feared for his loved ones' lives: A bullet could penetrate through the houses' flimsy walls and kill someone. And, fearing for their lives, "women and men and children" from both homes huddled in two rooms in Mansur's house Wednesday night, hoping that the IDF's Operation Rainbow would go somewhere else soon.

http://www.catdestroyshomes.org/article.php?id=196

[bemildred]

83. Plus ca change, plus meme.

"Operation rainbow". "Operation defensive shield", etc. etc.