The secret of Hizbullah's success

[Violet_Crumble]

Lebanon celebrated with lavish festivities the return of the last prisoners held in Israeli jails, and clamoured to be the only Arab country to have done so, and to have done so by imposing its demand on a reluctant Israel. Hizbullah fulfilled yet another pledge, and successfully ended another chapter in its longstanding battle with Israel.

Lebanese dignitaries from across the political and religious spectrum, Muslims and Christians alike, were lined up to welcome the freed prisoners, in a display of unity not seen since the earlier prisoner exchange of 2004. While many had previously lamented the cost of war and resistance, they now seemed eager to share in the glory of welcoming the last Lebanese prisoners of war.

Hizbullah's success can be added to its already long list of achievements, and reminds Arab and Muslim audiences worldwide of the effectiveness of a steadfast resistance. In an Arab world used to humiliations and defeats, the list of achievements claimed by Hizbullah in the past decade is indeed noteworthy.

The resistance movement was able to liberate most of Lebanon's territory from a two decade-long Israeli occupation, conducted a successful prisoner exchange in 2004, broke the invulnerability myth of the Israeli Defence Forces in the 2006 war, and managed to return all Lebanese prisoners held in Israel this past week. Hizbullah's charismatic leader has argued that his movement has never capitulated to Israeli demands, and thus never been defeated in its 25-year history – "the era of defeats is over".

This is in stark contrast to what "Arab moderates" could show for in the same decade they spent negotiating with the Israeli state. The much-publicised and now barren "peace process" keeps edging "forward" through road maps, countless summits, visits, and vague "visions" of a Palestinian state that fails to materialise, and which remains as elusive as it did 60 years ago.

<snip>

Current western support for Arab dictators and the associated labelling of resistance movements as terrorist organisations may not be to its best interest. Striking mutually beneficial deals with those that more closely represent Arab populations rather than with the corrupt dictators that rule them may have better long-term pay-offs. Perhaps the election of a new US president will usher a more peaceful era for the war-weary Middle East.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jul/18/israelandthepalestinians.lebanon

[no_hypocrisy]

1. Feeding hungry people, building schools and hospitals for the poor.

Wish our leadership discovered that "secret".

[pelsar]

2. Mussolini made the trains run on time

for a "progressive" paper to be a cheerleader for a theocratic style of govt is rather disgusting......Hizballa nor hamas are not known for their tolerance of "others."...they used the tried and true method of gaining power: fill in where the govt has failed, start with the kids, feed them, teach them (in religious schools), get their parents support, give them jobs......and get a solid grass roots support, slowly take over the area and when ready get out the guns and do rest forcibly.....

in the long run, what you get is a version of the taliban and iran..... intolerance for anyone that doest follow the rules....

[bemildred]

3. Sneaky bastards, giving them food, education, medical care, jobs ...

How did they think of doing that?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

11. Bemildred, I'd love to read your take on these recent events! nt

[bemildred]

15. I put a couple comments below.

I think what we see in Lebanon is the unwinding in political terms, in one small locality, of the facts of recent political and military history. Where it goes I do not know, but it seems clear that the Middle East is moving in the direction of greater economic and political autonomy, vis-a-vis the various former colonial powers. It's been a long time since that was so, we'll see what they do with it.
:popcorn::popcorn:

[razors edge]

4. There doesn't seem to be

any shortage of intolerance in that whole area from any side of the equasion.

Isn't a criminal act for a Jew to marry or even live with a Palestinian in Israel?

[LeftishBrit]

17. No, it is not.

It is *unusual* for a Jew to live with a Palestinian in Israel, and may no doubt lead to social ostracism, but it's not unknown and it's not illegal.

In fact, there was a recent case where a Palestinian was given special leave to move to Israel to live with his gay Israeli lover, on the grounds that the relationship would have put his life at risk at home:

www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/968337.html

There is plenty of racism and social segregation in Israel, as in many places; but it is not enshrined in law.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

5. Focus on the point: Hezbollah's successes have changed the landscape forever.

Can we comment on what that means for the region, rather than repeating the same old stuff.

[Sezu]

7. Everything Hezbollah has ever done has gotten

Lebanese killed. This can only continue and at much greater rates now that they are emboldened by another "divine victory."

[Phx_Dem]

8. The author is asserting that most ME arabs are extremists

and are not being well represented by moderate entities in the ME. He thinks that hezbo and hamas represent the wishes of the average ME arab:

"The difference between the two approaches cannot be stronger and echoes dramatically in Arab public opinion polls. It is no surprise that the Hizbullah leader Hassan Nasrallah comes on top of the popularity contest in all surveyed Arab countries (including Saudi Arabia and Egypt), and by a large margin."

snip

"Striking mutually beneficial deals with those that more closely represent Arab populations rather than with the corrupt dictators that rule them may have better long-term pay-offs."

[LeftishBrit]

18. The author of the article seems to be extremely into the 'realpolitik' of the situation...

It's not quite clear to me whether he actually advocates a tough-minded 'extremism works; screw pacifism and morality' approach, or whether he is simply saying that, like it or not, this is the attitude that many people are taking in the Middle East, and that Westerners are likely to take this into account. Probably a bit of both.

Whether he is accurate in the long-term with regard to the realities of the situation, I do not know and tend to hope not - though the situation in Lebanon is rarely what one would hope for.

While most Middle Eastern countries do have corrupt dictators, I think it's a mistake to think thatthe leaders of the militant organizations are any less likely to become corrupt dictators *if* given the power.


Let us be very very plain that what he is describing, if not actually endorsing, is not a progressive attitude, but a very right-wing one: 'those wishy-washy softie liberals never achieve their goals; what's needed is force!' Remind you of a certain American political party? This may be a common attitude in the Middle East at the moment, and needs to be taken into account in forecasts and predictions - but it is not at all in accord with the ideals of liberals and left-wingers.

[Phx_Dem]

19. Good points

I am finding the events in Lebanon very depressing, March 14 had very high ideals, now it's being destroyed by hezbos "entry" into the gov. I don't see how this could possibly be a good thing.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

33. I'm curious: do these events sort of make you think

that clearly Israel, by responding to to the force from groups like Hezbollah, rather than by efforts to make peace from groups like Fatah, is making a mistake...

Bottome line: those who play by the rules and negotiate with Israel end up empty-handed.

[LeftishBrit]

38. Yes.

Both in personal and international relationships, it's a mistake to give the impression that one will give people what they want, if and only if they make themselves nasty enough.

[pelsar]

9. its not good...for the arabs, the lebanese, the druze etc...

Hizballa....is shitie group, fed by iran and syria, that is slowly taking over Lebanon. ....and the irony of the whole thing is that it will put Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt along side with Israel in a geopolitical alliance. Israel may do the actual fighting but they will be cheer-leaded by the others.....

The Palestinians will be on the losing end of this one again, hamas will have its alliance with Hizballa, the PA with Egypt......and the Lebanese will once again be on the losing end as well.
_____

Hizballa is only going to make matters much much worse in the middle east, (the IDFs policies have change since the war...), the guardians article is short sighted....like a kid who cant see beyond the next day.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

10. It astounds me.

Not one of you is able to recognize that the folks you claim as moderates are US stooges.

The day of the US stooge is over. It is done. There will never again be any credibility for leaders like Abbas or Mubarak.

NOW WHAT?

[pelsar]

12. stooges or allies?

you seem to believe that any arab country allied with the US must be a stooge?...perhaps they prefer what the US has to offer?....or is your preference for what Iran is offering? Syria?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

16. Pelsar, I do not believe for one nanosecond that any US politician in power

cares ONE IOTA for the people of Palestine, or the people of any ME country, for that matter.

The US feeds money to leaders like Mubarak, that it props up using the most undemocratic means available. I believe the people of the ME are entitled to representation that reflects their own perceived needs.

The point is, what Hezbollah has shown, is that it can act independent of the US stamp of approval.

So, what does this mean for the future? The landscape has shifted. What now?

[pelsar]

23. no one gives a shit about the Palestenians...and that includes

hizballa....so they act independently of the US...so does Iran...and Russia big fukin deal.....the shift is not going to help the Palestenians one iota...they are mere pawns for Hizballa/Iranian grab for power.

it may make you feel good...but that has nothing to do with geo politics......

___

actually we do care about the Palestinians...in that they affect us directly, for the other arab/persian/muslim countries they are only tools to be used

[ProgressiveMuslim]

31. Hezbollah does not. But Hamas does.

On whom do you think they're modelling themselves?

[shaayecanaan]

37. Why do you think...

the Saudis are concerned about Iran? Its not because of any territorial ambition. Aside from a brief attempt at Basra during the Iraq-Iran war (where Iraq was the aggressor) the Persians havent had imperialist ambitions since Darius II.

The fact is that the Shia are making the Saudis look like a bunch of preening, pro-western, emasculated, piss-weak nancy boys. For a country that has spent most of its energy beating its Shia minority into submission that is a deeply concerning development. Particularly given that Nasrallah is practically as popular amongst the Sunnis as he is amongst the Shia.

The Shia in SA did not attempt to celebrate Ashura this year or last. But I imagine that once Iraq establishes itself as a solidly Shiite state next door, they will take their chances eventually. They'll probably have something to say about the fact that they cant give their kids Shi'ite names and that most Saudi school textbooks denounce them as apostates.

Whether that sets off a reaction sufficient to topple the necrotic, stinking corpse of a state that is Saudi Arabia is something that remains to be seen. Here's hoping though.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

41. I think any time a "people's party" makes gains, the Saudis get

frightened. Imagine if the people of SA rose up...

[Sezu]

14. Sometimes ya gotta go with what you can get. Those two

are unfortunately it even if they are assholes. But on a scale of 1 to 10 they are assholes number 1 and 2 in that region where a 10 PUBLICALLY advocates killing Jews.

[azurnoir]

21. And please explain just how

this "loss" will happen.

[pelsar]

24. hizballa...gods party....

is a theocratic group... religious.....and they're taking over Lebanon a multicultural country with Irans backing..while Saudi Arabia, Jordan and other arab countries are against them.....do you really think having one more religious dictatorship in the middle east is a good thing?

not to mention the help they'll be giving hamas...to take over the westbank..another wonderful idea

[azurnoir]

26. However they have not "taken over"

they are a part of the Lebanese government, not the entire government, Suileman is still a Christian and Sinora is still a Sunni, and Shiites are still a minority.
Hezbollah has at least in the past shown the political "savvy" not to try to instill Sharia law even the area's they control.

[pelsar]

29. patience

10 years ago they had just part of s. lebanon as their domain..then they added s. beirut and parts of n.e. lebanon. Now they have their own national communications network......do you really think they're going to suddenly stop their power grab?

and though they dont instill Sharia law...they do instill terror and a local dictatorship in areas they control.....patience....because thats what they have

[azurnoir]

39. Will Hezballah stop their pwer grab?

For a time anyway, they have to consolidate what they have gained so far as you said patience, as to the future that all depends on how events around them unfold.

[Sezu]

6. Why am I not surprised that the Guardian is ready to

put terrorist organizations on a pedestal as long as they are "defeating," Jews nor that some here are happy to spread the meme? Well, of course, a certain part of our left has always been wont to be fellow travelers with murderous totalitarians as long as they do a few "leftist," things.

[azurnoir]

25. And perhaps the Guardian is in keeping with the UK's

official stance on Hezbollah-

Governments disagree on Hezbollah’s status as a legitimate political entity, a terrorist group, or both. Throughout most of the Arab and Muslim worlds, Hezbollah is highly regarded as a legitimate resistance movement.<3> Hezbollah's violent acts are characterized by some countries as terrorist attacks, while others regard them as a resistance movement engaged in defensive Jihad."<168><169>
The countries below have officially listed Hezbollah in at least some part as a terrorist organization.

Australia
The Hezbollah External Security Organization <170>

Canada
The entire organization Hezbollah <171>

Israel
The entire organization Hezbollah <172><173>

Netherlands
The entire organization Hezbollah <174><175>

United Kingdom
The Hezbollah External Security Organization <176>

United States
The entire organization Hezbollah <177>


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah

The Hezbollah External Security Organization would refer to the military wing of Hezbollah, not the Social Services wing that this OP is talking about.

[LeftishBrit]

27. Fair point BUT I don't think the writer was making the distinction

He was emphasizing that Hezbollah may have increased its popularity by (in the eyes of its followers) making Israel capitulate to force. He was not really discussing Hezbollah's role in provision of social services; though I am sure that these *do* play a part in the popularity of the organization.

BTW: although he writes for the Guardian, Harb is not British, and is certainly not expressing any official British viewpoint. He is a social psychology professor at the American University in Beirut.

[azurnoir]

28. Fair point also

however even though Harb is an American I doubt one would see an article like this in a major American publication, it would regarded as supporting terrorism.

[Sezu]

30. Well of course he is supporting terrorism when he suggests

that Hezbollah is a "resistance," group and the US should rethink its policy. They have terrorized their OWN NATION for heaven's sake; killed their own fellow citizens in furtherization of their political ambitions. This guy is simply another useful idiot of the type who supported totalitarian killer regimes such as Pol Pot and the Communists

Is this place DEMOCRATIC underground or THEOCRATIC violence underground now? This article should be deleted

[azurnoir]

34. The US has "rethought" it's policy twice apparently

In 1999, Hezbollah was placed on the US State Department terrorism list. After Hezbollah's condemnation of the September 11, 2001 attacks on the USA, it was removed from the list, but it was later returned to the list.<178>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah

[bemildred]

13. A couple comments:

1.) He repeats the "they only understand force" argument, but inverted to point at the Israelis rather than the "islamic radicals". I would disagree to the extent that I think the two sides are much alike when it comes to the utility of force against them, or the lack of that utility. In some circumstances it can be effective, and in others not. The trick is in knowing which is which. If you assume it does not matter, as he does, you have a simple, ham-handed, and ultimately ineffective policy, whomever you might be.

2.) His point about the way Israel (Edit: I really should include Uncle Sugar here, too) has succeeded in unifying its naturally opposed enemies in Lebanon is worth paying attention to. Sort of the opposite of the "divide and rule" maxim.

3.) Of course, the last paragraph is right on, so obvious that it beggars description.

[azurnoir]

20. The last paragragh is indeed right on

however the last sentence is IMHO overly optimistic

Perhaps the election of a new US president will usher a more peaceful era for the war-weary Middle East.

[bemildred]

22. Well, not all at once, anyway ...

One can hope, at least, that he will avoid starting any new ones. And I am cautiously optimistic that things could settle down some.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

32. If Obama continues with the US policy of

"White men must rule" (paraphrasing from the HBO special "Generation Kill") then I think it's very unlikely.

I fear the natives don't think American interests should take precedence in their countries...

[bemildred]

36. Well, that's true.

And he is after all, a US Senator, and an ambitious guy. But there are conflicting forces at work, and Bush has pretty much gut-shot the empire, near as I can see, and Obama does seem to be able to think, so I don't see him continuing with Bushite policies, and there is at least a chance that he will work hard to develop cooperative rather than adversarial relationships.

[number6]

35. Israels heavy handed actions is

the fuel that makes Hamas and Hizbullah grow ....

[LeftishBrit]

40. And Hamas and Hizbullah's actions are...

the fuel that makes the Israeli Right grow.

It's a vicious circle; and goes both ways.