PNN readers blame PA and Hamas for delayed opening of the Rafah Border Crossing

[oberliner]

Hiba Lama / Exclusive / PNN – A recent poll conducted by the Palestine News Network indicates that an increasing number of Palestinians hold the Palestinian Authority and the Hamas government responsible for the delayed opening of the southern Gaza crossing to Egypt at Rafah.

The survey conducted early last week reveals that 45 percent of Palestinians polled consider the PA to be ultimately responsible for recent disruptions while 43 percent regard Hamas as to blame.

The fact that only six percent hold the Israelis responsible and five percent consider Egypt to blame has come as a surprise to some commentators.

http://english.pnn.ps/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3372&Itemid=50

[Vegasaurus]

1. Interesting stats, aren't they?

Just like most Israeli Arabs don't want to live in a new Palestinian state, most Palestinians support continued violence against Israelis, most preferred the Israeli occupation to Hamas's occupation, and now most hold their own leadership responsible for their messes, like the closed border, rather than Israel.

[shira]

2. They're not stupid.

Palestinians know who is ultimately responsible for their continued suffering. But what do THEY know, right? They only live under Hamas and PLO abuse. I guess they didn't get the memo this week blaming Israel from their "pro-Palestinian" boosters who are "so" concerned about their welfare.

[Vegasaurus]

3. Those "pro-Palestinian" boosters

should take responsibility for their part in leaving the innocent Palestinians in misery,

Their political agenda is so deep that they can't see past their own hatred.

They don't see that by the political posturing that supports (if not outright, certainly tacitly) violence and refusal to consider any of Israel's peace offers, they are supporting leaving the Palestinians in ongoing misery.

[azurnoir]

5. Hatred of what

com'on speak up you make so many false proclamations, such as Palestinians prefer Israeli occupation, geez according to you i would have thought they were too busy playing with their new motorcycles or watching their new big screen tv's.
For once prove some the BS you post
The one that is blinded by hatred is you

[Vegasaurus]

11. I hate no one

I have always said that the Palestinians could and should have their own state, but their leaders are too intent on inflaming their people, pushing terrorism and hatred of Jews.

Do you think life is good for the Gazans under Hamas's rule?

I think they have suffered immeasurably, and there is no reason for this.

It is because the Palestinians are ruled by terrorists that their lives are miserable.

This could change, and it is only the militants' and leaders' hatred of Jews that causes them to put murder and terrorism above their desires for their own state.

[shira]

26. palestinians prefer israeli occupation

Sari Nusseibeh was just quoted by Akiva Eldar stating times were happier under Israeli occupation (pre-Oslo).

Tell you what...I'll assume you know the living conditions of Palestinians during:

1948-67 (under Egypt/Jordan rule)
1967-93 (under only Israel rule)
1993-present (under PLO/Hamas/Israeli occupation)

Of those 3 time periods, which was most humane, moral, economically better, etc... for the average Palestinian? And why?

[LeftishBrit]

4. Sooner or later...

a government's attempts to represent *every* problem as due to foreigners is going to backfire.

Israel and Egypt do share a significant amount of blame for the problem - but so do the Palestinian leaders, and by now they're getting it.

Which leads on to the next question: is there anyone better in the wings that the Palestinians could/ are likely to elect?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

6. Yes. It's time for new stooges to sit at the faux peace talks.

Having "new leadership" threaten to "quit the talks" when the next dozen settlements go up, as the wall spreads, as kids in Gaza die from lack of healthcare, as prisoners rot ... will make all the difference in the world.

LB, there were democratic elections for new leadership. The results were overturned and ignored.

Should we just let the US & Israel choose the new leaders to spare us all the pretense?

[LeftishBrit]

8. Israel and the US badly need new leaders too.

(And I don't mean Netanyahu and McCain.)

But do you think that Hamas - or Fatah - have been brilliant leaders? Or that, however badly Palestine may have been treated by Israelis and other foreigners, SOME of its problems are not caused or aggravated by its own leadership?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

14. I think their leadership has been so interfered with, so derailed,

so co-opted, that it's really impossible to tell.

Can you honestly say that Hamas had a fair shake for even 5 minutes?

I don't think so.

And I'd much rather have seen them do their best and be judged this next election based on their best efforts. I'd rather they be voted out by Palestinians than coup'd out by US/ISrael-backed Fatah.

It's insanity.

[oberliner]

15. Coup'd out?

I strongly dispute your reading of the events of June, 2007.

Hamas kicked Fatah out of Gaza.

You will note that Hamas is in charge of Gaza right now.

Whatever you think Fatah was planning to do, it was Hamas who did the actual coup'ing.

Hamas expelled the PA from Gaza, Vanity Fair articles notwithstanding.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

16. They did defeat Fatah in Gaza, in response to the US/Israel backed coup attempt.

You can't dispute those basic facts, Oberliner.

[oberliner]

17. Abbas disputes your claims, Mubarak disputes your claim

Abbas disputes your claim. In fact, he said the opposite - that Hamas was planning a coup against the PA in Gaza, and then they did so.

Mubarak identified the takeover in Gaza as a coup initiated by Hamas.

The intelligence chief of the PA has gone so far as to say that the Hamas coup in Gaza was coordinated in conjunction with Iran and had been planned long in advance of June.

You are free to believe what you wish, but your claims are by no means indisputable basic facts, as they are disputed by numerous Palestinian leaders and a variety of other Arab leaders.

[Vegasaurus]

18. Herein lies the biggest problem with all issues related to I/P

There is no underlying agreement as to "indisputable basic facts", and that goes all the way back to 1900.

Despite statistics, documentation, etc. from then until the present, there is different interpretation for the same set of circumstances or events.

One person's "revisionist history" is another person's reality.

[azurnoir]

19. Odd but Keith Dayton does not

Gen. Dayton admits US is helping Fatah

As violence raged this week in the Gaza Strip between Hamas and Fatah, US officials stressed the importance of American efforts to bolster forces loyal to the latter and said further help was necessary.

Congress recently allowed $59 million to be used to further Dayton's efforts at training the presidential guard of Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas of Fatah.
The money, however, didn't go through the normal appropriation process, as the White House took previously approved funds and simply reallocated them.
Dayton pushed the case for further US assistance to the Palestinian guard, despite months of efforts on the ground that have seemed to have little effect against the well-disciplined and well-supplied Hamas.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1178708687359

He admits that the US was/is "helping" Fatah/PA to fight Hamas in Gaza note this article is fro May of 2007, at best both sides were planning this well in advance.

Also Mubarak, Abbas, and "numerous Palestinian leaders" like Fayyad and Dahlan perhaps, have absolutely no vested interest in supporting those claims now would they?

[Vegasaurus]

20. So you support Hamas's coup? nt

[azurnoir]

21. All I had to do was read the title line

and I knew who the poster was,. I do not need to qualify my post for you, if you believe that it constitutes my "supporting terrorism" then alert it.

[oberliner]

22. Actually he does

He claims, in this piece, that the US aided Fatah precisely to help defend them against potential attacks from Hamas.

I don't claim that any of the people mentioned don't have vested interests in taking the positions that they do.

My only claim is that the idea that Hamas did nothing more than respond to a US/Israel backed coup attempt when it took over Gaza is something other than an "undisputed basic fact".

It is very much disputed by a wide range of people across a variety of spectrums.

[azurnoir]

23. So Fatah was only trained and armed for "defence" only?

and those lessons can not "cross over"? I never said Hamas was not planning too,

[oberliner]

24. I don't know the answer to that

All I know is that the version presented in the post to which I responded does not contain "undisputed facts".

[azurnoir]

25. When the events that lead to Hamases takeover happened

I said that this was Bushes "Bay of Pigs", in a real sense it was, America arms and trains Fatah, Iran arms and trains Hamas and then sets them at each other, why should the big boys injure themselves when they can get the little boys to fight it out for them. Who got the "drop" on who first I do not know, but it seem the outcome was a disaster for all concerned, including quite possibly Israel, except of course the big boys America and Iran.

[bemildred]

7. Was this an internet poll, or did they call people that have phones? Or what? nt

[oberliner]

9. Internet poll

The last official survey that I recall reading about which asked about the Rafah crossing was conducted in September of 2007.

The question was: Who is most responsible party for the closing of the Rafah crossing?

In Gaza, Israel and Hamas were basically tied with just over 30 percent, while Fatah was at about 20 percent.

In the West Bank, Israel was first with over 40 percent, Hamas 25 percent, Fatah 15 percent.

Egypt was around 2-3 percent in both regions.

Here is a link to that survey: http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/polls/2007/p25e2.html

The poll in the OP was an internet poll on the Palestine News Network's website. Statistically meaningless, no doubt, but still somewhat surprising apparently. (The internet poll questions are only available on the Arabic version of the page and not the English version, I believe)

There was an actual poll conducted in early August by the Arab World for Research and Development which has some interesting findings about current Palestinian public opinion.

The findings from that poll show that Fatah appears to be significantly more popular than Hamas currently both in the West Bank and Gaza, that most Palestinians want new elections in the near future, and that Abbas, Fayyad, or Barghouti would defeat Haniyeh in such an election. (There do not appear to be any questions about the Rafah crossing)

Here is a link to a summary of the findings in that survey; http://www.awrad.org/etemplate.php?id=59&x=4

[bemildred]

10. Well, my point is that we don't actually have any idea who these people are then.

So comments in the form "40% of Palestinians believe" based on such a poll are dishonest. I'm being polite.

[oberliner]

12. It is interesting to note the quoted remarks in the article

where the PLC rep indicates that the poll results do, in fact, represent the current Palestinian public opinion accurately, while the Hamas rep takes a different view.

It would be great if an actual survey was taken (perhaps one has been).

[bemildred]

13. It's almost like they have an interest in it.

But polls should not depend on the opinions of political hacks in order for one to evaluate them.

An actual, well-done survey would be interesting. I don't know that I've ever seen one, but still.