Settler rabbi: Peace Now chief should be jailed for treason

[pelsar]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1041159.html
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Also Wednesday, some 40 settler teenagers rampaged in a Palestinian neighborhood in the West Bank city of Hebron, Israel Radio reported.

According to the radio report, the teens punctured the tires of Palestinian cars and Border Police patrol jeeps near the so-called "House of Contention," a building the High Court has ordered settlers to vacate.

The rioting settlers also hurled rocks at Palestinian houses and sprayed a Star of David on a wall.

No arrests were reportedly made in the incident.

gosh kids will be kids......ok i'm just kidding.....truth is these kids are probably one of the biggest problems israel has made for itself.... religious fanatics, who with god on their side can do whatever they want and justify it

and they all sound alike... a hamasnik, jihadnik, iranian revolutionary guard, extremist jewish settler....

[LeftishBrit]

1. Ugh

These extremists are doing huge damage to everyone. To the Palestinians. And to their own country as they are harming and delaying the cause of peace.


I strongly agree with your last point

'and they all sound alike... a hamasnik, jihadnik, iranian revolutionary guard, extremist jewish settler....'

and all those of all religions who think that God wants them to be violent.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

2. Only one has the backing of US taxpayers, though. nt

[Lithos]

3. Does taking money from another source make it any better?

Besides the fact that most of the settler's monies come from private sources and that the total money from the US is actually not that significant, all of the groups mentioned take money from the US one way or the other.

L-

[ProgressiveMuslim]

4. Does anyone here have statistics on the kinds of subsidies those who move to the occupied WB

receive to cover housing etc? I'm not talking about violent settlers, but any settlers who are lured to the WB with promises of cheap housing...?

Settlers were mentioned in the same breath with "jihadniks" and "hamasniks." I'm simply pointing out that of these 3, one receives a wink and a nod from the US, and indirect support (if not direct) from US taxpayers.

As a US taxpayer, it makes me sick that money I work hard to earn is used -- directly or indirectly -- to pay for Israel's suppression of the people of Palestine.

Is that sentiment illegal here?

[pelsar]

5. nothing is black and white...

many are hidden within the various services....be it cheaper schooling, services by the municipalities etc....i believe the morgages were cheaper...but thats kind of a mute point since those that want to leave cant find buyers for their homes.

settlers are a mixed bag...some let their religion give them the moral right to rule and be violent over others for reasons of "holy" land, rocks, air etc...just like your jihadnikim and hamasnikim.....

and your hamasnkikm get the "nod and wink" from so many in europe and the arab world.....of which you pay for with the failure of the US to be energy independent....(keep buying that saudi crude)

[ProgressiveMuslim]

6. To suggest that Hamas receives anything close to the legal international support that Israeli

settlers receive is absurd.

Nothing is black and white. And the continuous attempt to paint every Israeli "wrong" with a similar Palestinian wrong is just false.

There is no world-wide equivalent to criminal settlers.

[pelsar]

10. world wide equivalent to the israeli settlers?...of course there is..

amazing that one can be so blind to the worlds history....moving in to someone elses land and setting up shop is the core of the history of the world
American pilgrims, serbs, russians, arabs, christians, muslims

i cant believe you even wrote that....i guess you actually believe it, but to do so is somehow to believe that the Palestinians are somehow some kind of special people that when suffering the same fate as almost every other people on the face of the earth it cant be "normal"....sound like a bit of "religion to me"....

here i'll give even a present day situation that is close: Morocco and the Polisario...of course whats missing is the initial attacks on israel from that same territory, but its close in some ways

in fact what is amazing about the situation is just so how "mundane it actually is. In 99% of the history of the world, it happens and that is the "end of it" until the next crises...why this has been dragged out so long is unique combination of arab oil, jewish history, muslim history, culture, jews, left agenda, jewish conspiracies etc....but that is the only reason its been dragged on for so many years.

this is the "proof": had the jews lost in 48, and syria, jordan and egypt grabbed a part of Palestine for their own....that would have been the end of the conflict: no Palestine, no news, no Fatah, etc.....that i suspect you also know......

[ProgressiveMuslim]

14. No I don't think there is an equivalent to flouting UN resolutions for decades, with support from

the USA.

Usually the US favors sanctions rather than billions of dollars of US taxpayer aid for nations that flout UN resolutions, doesn't it?

[pelsar]

17. just for "fun' or to establish a baseline...

had the jews lost in 48 and jordan, egypt and syria took the pieces of Palestine for their own....do you think there would have a been any kind of "serious" "free Palestine movement or a few feeble protests by the UN and that would have been the end of it (which is my opinion)....

[LeftishBrit]

19. The UN passes more resolutions against some countries than others. ,

The UN is a political organization, not God.

They haven't been passing lots of resolutions against China for occupying Tibet, or Russia for occupying Chechnya, or the USA/UK for invading and occupying Iraq; but this doesn't mean these things haven't happened.

And no, I do NOT think that any of these things excuse the Israeli Occupation, or that Israel shouldn't be blamed and criticized for it. I just don't think Israel - or any country - should be treated as uniquely evil.

[Shaktimaan]

20. But that is only because the UN is relative new.

Speaking in broader terms, it is one of the most common memes in history for a wealthy, politically and militarily powerful nation to fund religious fundamentalists' colonization of outlying lands. "White man's burden" and all that. Of course there are differences in the details, there always are. But the broad strokes are not very different than a pattern that was established centuries, if not far longer, ago.

The UN is a completely new concept. Before its predecessor, the League of Nations, nothing like it had even been attempted. The powerful ruled until they were overthrown. Never before has the ruling class of nations ever attempted something as democratic as giving the weaker nations a vote and the opportunity to organize themselves, allowing them a chance at challenging the universal rule of the strong over the weak.

That said, it in no way validates the UN as being in any way a more ethical organization than the sum of its members. The fact that more resolutions have been passed condemning Israel than have been passed against the rest of the world combined, (I'm only slightly exaggerating here) doesn't mean anything except that Israel is unpopular politically. It certainly doesn't imply that Israel is worse than other nations.

The UN is hardly a bastion of fairness; their resolutions aren't known for being unbiased. Were that the case then Israel would likely have the opportunity to serve on the security council, just as every other state does. (As South Africa did, even during the height of Apartheid.) Were that the case then resolutions which support protection for Israeli children would be given consideration in the General Assembly, instead of being rejected outright or turned into statements solely supporting Palestinian children, while excluding any mention of the originally intended recipients. Why would an unbiased organization refuse to condemn the killing of Israeli children while wholeheartedly doing so for the children of just about every other state, when brought to its attention? Answer: it wouldn't.

Besides, it is not as though any state listens to the UN unless its ruling happen to coincide with its interests. If Israel has flouted more rulings than anyone else it is only because the UN has ruled against it more than anyone else.

[Vegasaurus]

21. In every other case in history

there are conquests of land, and the winner takes all.

Except of course, with JEWS.

Look at history books, and land boundaries are drawn and redrawn again and again.

Territories and countries are fluid.

Only in the I/P conflict do people get up in arms about "occupation" (while ignoring other occupations worldwide), "Genocide" (while ignoring real genocides worldwide) or land conquests being in "violation of international law" (ignoring the multitude of times this has happened throughout history).

It must be because there is special concern with Jews.

The same is true with UN resolutions, as if Israel was the most evil country on earth, all the while ignoring the true evils in the rest of the middle east and all through Africa, Indonesia, North Korea....

[azurnoir]

23. Yes your right about that

Why just look at the American colonies of Japan and Germany.

[Lithos]

12. The US tax payer supports much of the Middle East economy

Hamas gets its money from mostly from Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States with some from Egypt. The economies of Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States are almost completely dependent on money coming from the US both directly (military aid) and indirectly (payment for crude).

The economy of Israel is dwarfed by many of the Gulf states.

Similarly, Jihadniks get a fair amount of their money from Saudi Arabia as well, again supported extensively by the US. Saudi Arabia just spent 70 billion dollars to fund the building of mosques, schools and other infrastructure items to promote extreme Wahabbist beliefs. The amount of monies along which support this type of extremism is not well accounted for, but is estimated between 5 to 16 billion alone. This far exceeds the 2.4 billion spent towards Israel, much of which is nothing more than corporate welfare of US defense companies and which a good portion does not materially benefit Israel.

This 70 billion and most of the other monies comes directly from the money base built from oil revenues derived primarily from the US. The sad truth is that we've also spent probably close to a trillion dollars in direct defense spending along with many thousands of US (and many hundreds of thousands of Iraqi, Iranian and Afghani) lives to protect this addiction.

L-

[ProgressiveMuslim]

15. I don't see what I said that you're disagreeing with.

US aid to Egypt hardly supports the Muslim Brotherhood.

As for Saudi aid, that's for Saudi Arabians to protest, much like I protest my hard earned money being used to make it possible for the right-wing violent settlerniks to flout international law, or even their more passive (but equally disastrous) counterparts the settlers-who-flout-international-law-for-a-cheap-mortgage-niks.

Really, don't the apartheid conditions exist to support the bedroom-community-settlerniks?

Do you dispute that US aid enables Israel to implement the occupation? Do you think without our largesse they would be able to offer generous incentives to settle the occupied land?

[IndianaGreen]

7. Nuke the settlers!

Let's see who'll be left to fight for a pile of radioactive ashes!

Religions have done nothing but spread intolerance and train generations of terrorists!

[LeftishBrit]

13. You realize that would mean nuking the Palestinians too - not to mention the fallout affecting

Israel, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, etc., etc.?

Mist settlers should be given homes in Israel, and compensated (most were immigrants who settled in the OTs because that's where they could get homes; the ideologues are a minority). The lawless ideologues should be cracked down on and punished. With the danger they pose for their country, they have no right to call anyone else 'traitors'.

[shaayecanaan]

8. If you don't care about religion...

why did you bother moving from Michigan to some twee faux-Londony looking town in Israel? I suppose there's a few Arabs in Michigan these days, but there's more in Israel, so that can't be it.

Don't get me wrong, I still care about what's happening in Lebanon, but Im not about to move back there just for the fun of it.

[pelsar]

11. fair question...

i'll make this short as i dont have much time right now...but feel free to ask further:

at one point in my life growing up in middle class orthodox jewish community with some life experience of living outside of the community in little town america..i had to make a choice of my identity.

a large influence were the relatives that had survive the holocaust and were living in our neighborhood......in the end i decided that i had a very strong jewish cultural identity and a very strong american one......I had more confidence that the american one would survive attacks......the jewish one however required more direct support.

from about 10yrs old, i realized that religion with all of its rituals was nothing more than "voodo" and was not going to be an active part of my life....but the jewish identity i was "stuck" with.

[shaayecanaan]

16. How long do you expect cultural identity to last without voodoo?

And how do you separate the two? Does no voodoo mean no dreidels, golems, sukkot, or routine modification of baby genitals? Or does it mean some of those things nevertheless? And how long do you expect an American lad's "cultural identity" to last against a feisty Irish girl with big boobs? Probably about fifteen seconds. Granted, voodoo will not last much longer than than but at least mooching along to shul each week is a good chance for little boys to meet little girls.

You may mock the cultists but the Hasidim will still be around in New York a hundred years from now, and in probably greater numbers. Once upon a time, WASPs could be relied on to object whenever some Jewish guy wanted to marry their daughter. They don't object any more, they're probably just glad she isn't marrying some black guy. In less than a hundred years, secular Jewish identity in the US will be dead, as there is no longer sufficient anti-Semitism to sustain it.

It is already happening to my community here, and I'm proud to say with my Chinese fiancee I'm doing my best to contribute. When I first moved here, I was amazed that most people had no religion. Now most of us have no religion. We never realised how much at home being Christian meant not being Muslim. When we jumped off the boat and into a country largely without religious hostility, it was like pouring olive oil into alcohol rather than water. Instead of settling on top, we dissolved.

[pelsar]

18. and there lies my problem....

whereas i do mock religion, with its endless discussions of what is and what is not permitted), at the same time i understand the importance of the cultural/religious icons and traditions that keep it going, with its moral and value system. I go to my brothers house for some of the various holidays and sit quietly and watch how they go through the shabbat/holiday customs and know that it is the glue that keeps the next generations together (and they have a far closer family than i do, because of the religion)

and i have a rather long list of WASPS with big and small boobs, that i reluctantly did not get involved with because they werent jewish....the jewish identity being a strong component.....and i didnt want to put myself into a situation where i had to make some decisions that i would later regret.

which brings me to one of the more interesting reasons for moving to israel: knowing full well that i was going to have a hard time with the religious customs and the social network that goes with it, yet having a strong jewish identity......i figure that i could be a secular jew in israel, knowing full well that my kids get a good solid education and jewish identity...and that has come to pass. My kids have both jewish and israeli identities with a bit of social and capitalistic values "thrown in."

and whereas i do agree with you:
You may mock the cultists but the Hasidim will still be around in New York a hundred years from now, and in probably greater numbers

i also feel that israel with its secular but cultural jews will also be around....in some ways the IDF* takes the place, for many of us, of the religious customs and social network of Judaism outside of israel.

____
i just remembered how once i came off of guard duty and entered the mess tent for dinner..it was the start of the passover ceremony, which no doubt would last an hour or so, not wanting to offend anyone there nor did i really want to participate, i turned around went back and did another 6hrs, freeing up the guy who took my place-i guess i got a mitzva for that as well.....

[shaayecanaan]

28. Interesting answer, thanks (nt)

nt

[IndianaGreen]

9. All religions have their lunatic fringe, and they have become emboldened lately

An excellent film by M. Night Shyamalan is Praying with Anger. The film deals with Dev, an Indian-American student going to India to find his roots. There is one scene that deals with the hatred and violence between Hindus and Muslims. The irrationality of it all is what struck Dev.

[legin]

22. The settlers are just doing their job

This is what they are in Hebron for.

[azurnoir]

24. Any updates on the situation? n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

25. Couldn't agree with you more on this...

and they all sound alike... a hamasnik, jihadnik, iranian revolutionary guard, extremist jewish settler....

Do you know some of these extremist settlers aren't even Israeli? I read a media article here last week where an eighteen year old girl from Melbourne was having a fantastic adventure in her gap year in Israel (so far, so good, but it's downhill from that point) by joining fellow extremists in Hebron at that house the High Court has ordered be vacated. According to her, her fellow extremists aren't doing anyone any harm, and since they're in the house, it belongs to them because god is on their side, blah blah. At that point in the article I thought to myself that it's a pity that the Israeli govt doesn't put foreigners with the IQ of a slug on a plane back home rather than have these idiots add to the problem....

[pelsar]

26. local joke...

israels a magnet for the religious fanatics of all shapes and sizes.......(the sad part of it, is that its true.....)

IQ of a slug ?....that i liked....a good description.

[azurnoir]

27. Oh but not to stop there

U.S. buyer of controversial Hebron house moves in ahead of eviction threat

The Jewish-American man who says he purchased the House of Contention in Hebron moved in to live there yesterday, joining the 16 Jewish families already residing in the building and hundreds of rightist activists who have come to prevent security forces from evicting the tenants.

A High Court of Justice ruling last week gave the settlers three days to evacuate, but a loophole was found allowing them to remain for a full 30 days before any force could be taken.

Morris Abraham claims he legally purchased the property from a Palestinian, but the alleged seller says he changed his mind and that the deal was never finalized.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1041317.html