Egypt's Mubarak to EU: Hamas must not be allowed to win

[hack89]

Hamas must not be allowed to win its conflict with the Israel Defense Forces, Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak told a delegation of European foreign ministers in a closed conversation Monday.

The Egyptian cease-fire proposal would require Israel to end its military operation and withdraw from Gaza, while Hamas would have to end rocket fire into Israel. The border crossings into Gaza would reopen, but PA officials would be stationed at the Rafah crossing with Egypt.

In addition, Egypt is demanding that Hamas resume reconciliation talks with Fatah

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1052974.html

Many Arab governments want nothing to do with Iranian funded Islamic radicalism. Gaza is screwed with Hamas in charge.

[scarletwoman]

1. Mubarak doesn't want to lose his big fat "foreign aid" check from the U.S.

The check that turns right around to buy fancy hardware from U.S. weapons manufacturers.

Mubarak, who jails or kills dissenters-- including bloggers -- who outlaws any opposition candidates who try to run for election -- Mubarak is certainly the voice of reason and democracy. :eyes:

Thank goodness he's anti-Iran.

What's REALLY pathetic about this, is that when Hamas first won a majority in the Palestinian legislature in a free and fair election, they DID offer to form a unity government with Fatah. But the U.S. and Israel would have none of it. They did their whole "Hamas is a terrorist organisation!" bit and immediately set to work to sabotage any possibility of any political solution.

This current situation is WHOLLY the doing of the U.S. and Israel.

sw

[GoesTo11]

2. Mubarak knows the greatness of Hamas, but refuses to admit it

Perhaps Hamas can someday teach him about true reason and democracy.

[scarletwoman]

6. That's just silly. Mubarak is just another autocratic Arab asshole. Hamas is a bunch

of fundamentalist assholes. But Hamas is also a legitimately elected political party. Instead of simply refusing to recognize the outcome of an internationally observed and certified election, Israel and the U.S. could have taken steps to bring about a unity government that would have, of necessity, moderated and subtly co-opted Hamas' ideology.

But Israel would rather strengthen the enmity of the Palestinians than actually work toward peace.

sw

[bridgit]

12. "the greatness of Hamas"? Mubarak is a whole other kettle of fish...

But if Hamas is so great they'd stop placing the inhabitants of Gaza in circumstances filled with death and continued chaos. They'd have stopped with the rockets months ago. They'd leave a cease fire in place long enough to build a reciprocal sense of forward motion, of a future where peace could exist. They'd suggest to their overlords there just might be another way than war and more war. Democracy may have been what brought them here; BTW a system of governance they otherwise have little respect for. If they were all that and a bag of chips, they'd be illustrating their operational relationship to 'reason' itself.

[GoesTo11]

13. Well, what do you think would happen if they stopped the rockets

renounced terrorism and announced their desire to build a peaceful future through cooperation with their neighbors and respect for human rights? Do you think that would make life better for them? No way. Iran would cut them off at the knees.

[bridgit]

14. Who can say, certainly not Hamas, it has little occurred to any perceivable extent, and again...

Hamas is not so great to allow such a thing to take place. "make life better for them?" Hamas? There is tremendous talent in Palestine. The Palestinian people would doubtless benefit from a continued, reciprocal peace. But Hamas did not come to this dance to dance. They were sent here by their overlords, as you rightly understand, to roll people in the parking lot and foment derision.

No body, either physical or politic; is able to survive out from under a condition of dis-ease with a bloody, oozing open wound that will not close. Israel may be less than innocent in the eyes of many. But they being their people; Hamas should be making efforts to close the wounds they are able to dress.

"Iran would cut them off at the knees." You know, maybe it's time for Hamas to really invest in a future that includes the Palestinian people. Could be a way to go.

[GoesTo11]

15. It's so crazy it just might work!

[bridgit]

16. heh-heh...there'ya go,

[Zynx]

17. Mubarak is infinitely preferable to Hamas.

[BunkerHill24]

25. Mubarak is a tyrant, a fool and a horrid dictator supported by the US

He knows his days are numbered. Egyptians are better off without him.

[LeftishBrit]

26. I'm no great fan of Mubarak; but Egypt would NOT be better with the Muslim Brotherhood in charge

or with chaos and civil war reigning.

Saddam was 'a tyrant, a fool and a horrid dictator (formerly) supported by the US' - his overthrow did not as yet make things better for Iraqis. It depends on how they're overthrown, and who fills the vacuum.

[hack89]

4. Nonsense

the biggest threat to his power is Islamic fundamentalism - why do you think he has been suppressing the Muslim Brotherhood for so long?

I am not saying the Arab leaders are voices of reason and democracy - none are. What I am saying is that they do view Hamas and Hezbollah as enemies and are therefore very willing to let Israel do their dirty work.

[scarletwoman]

7. And how does that contradict anything I said? He certainly knows which side his bread is buttered on

Hamas aside, he's not about to raise a big fuss about the slaughter of Palestinian civilians if he wants to keep his lucrative "defense" arrangements with U.S. going.

sw

[hack89]

8. He would oppose Hamas even if the US was his enemy

he has his own reasons to fear Hamas. The Arabs don't give a rats ass about the Palestinians - don't you think many of them would have jumped at the chance to become citizens of Jordan, Eygpt, Syria or Lebanon if offered? The Arab governments are more than happy to keep Palestinians caged in wretched camps. Why do you think the Arab countries have a history of betraying and abandoning the Palestinians?

[scarletwoman]

11. If the U.S. didn't prop him up, it wouldn't matter if he opposed Hamas or not.

He'd be long gone.

I do know about how the Arab states are perfectly happy to let the Palestinians twist in the wind. It's all part and parcel of how the autocrats made their bargains with the West in order to hold onto power for themselves.

sw

[Zynx]

18. Indeed. Jordan has been particularly awful to Palestinians.

Israel is hardly the only one that has done something objectionable to Palestinians.

[azurnoir]

24. "scuse me do you know what your talking about?

obviously not or your hoping no else here knows different.

[hack89]

27. I think so

I know I don't carry your particular bias but I think my facts are correct. The world is much more complicated then Jew and USA bad.

[azurnoir]

32. My bias or the truth?

Of the 1,827,877 refugees living in Jordan all but 120,000 have been granted full citizenship, in fact Jordans Queen Rania is Palestinian, she was born in Kuwait but her parents are from Tulkarm

Jordan is the only Arab country which uniformly gave citizenship rights to Palestinian refugees present on its soil. Other countries, especially Lebanon, gave citizenship to a fraction of the refugees. However, there remain a huge number of refugees living in camps in Jordan, and in fact it has the largest such population with over one million Palestinian refugees.<26>

After the 1967 Six-Day War, during which Israel captured the West Bank from Jordan, Palestinian Arabs living there continued to have the right to apply for Jordanian passports and live in Jordan. Palestinian refugees actually living in Jordan were considered full Jordanian citizens as well. In July 1988, King Hussein of Jordan announced the severing of all legal and administrative ties with the West Bank. Any Palestinian living on Jordanian soil would remain and be considered Jordanian. However, any person living in the West Bank would have no right to Jordanian citizenship.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugees#Jordan

this wiki has been heavily edited within the last 48 hours

All Palestine refugees in Jordan have full Jordanian citizenship with the exception of about 120,000 refugees originally from the Gaza Strip, which up to 1967 was administered by Egypt. They are eligible for temporary Jordanian passports, which do not entitle them to full citizenship rights such as the right to vote and employment with the government.

http://www.un.org/unrwa/refugees/jordan.html

[GoesTo11]

28. Probably talking about this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan

(The neutrality and factual accuracy of this article are disputed)

[azurnoir]

33. That happened 38 years ago things do change n/t

[Zynx]

34. I have history on my side on that one.

This is recent: http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/country,,,QUERYRESPONSE,PSE,4562d8cf2,46fa538823,0.html

Another poster already posted about Black September which happened more recently than the much bitched about 1967 war.

Simply brushing me aside as some ignorant rube does not make that so.

[azurnoir]

35. Yup but what you leave out is that

they are talking about 120,000 refugees out of 1,800,000+ most of whom have been granted full Jordanian citizenship. I posted an UNWRA report on that a couple of posts back
And oh yeah Black September was September 1970 so much more recent.

[bemildred]

3. Kind of clarifies his position. nt

[Kurska]

5. No rocket fire, Egypt Border open under PA Supervision and a ceasefire

Sounds perfect to me :D

[Sanctified]

9. I think his solution is perfect but will be rejected by Hamas. n/t

[Duckhunter935]

10. I just think

They really will not put a serious attemp to stop the rockets, They may slow them but not stop them. Too many factions and the cycle will start anew.

[henank]

19. Egypt's Mubarak to EU: Hamas must not be allowed to win

Haaretz

Hamas must not be allowed to win its conflict with the Israel Defense Forces, Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak told a delegation of European foreign ministers in a closed conversation Monday.

The comment occurred even as Hamas, for the first time since the fighting began, sent representatives to Cairo to discuss a cease-fire. Following a meeting with Egyptian intelligence officials, Hamas officials said they had received an Egyptian proposal and would consider it.

If even Egypt is saying this in public to the EU... goes to show there's a lot more support behind the scenes for Israel's actions than people on this board give credit for.

[rockymountaindem]

20. Two things are probably happening

1) Hamas has a similar outlook to the Islamic Brotherhood, which I believe is illegal in Egypt and a big bugaboo for the Egyptian government

2) Egypt gets a lot of aid money from the US

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. It is the Palestinian branch of the Islamic Brotherhood

why you are seeing a clear split between Sunni and Shia

Not that many folks understand this, or even why...

[rockymountaindem]

23. Yep. Didn't know about that connection until now

Thanks.

[hlthe2b]

22. ding ding ding.....

definitely.... Mubarek is extremely paranoid about "extremist" groups, including the Brotherhood and the possibility of being overthrown...he's survived largely because the US has made sure that he has...

[GoesTo11]

29. Extremely paranoid?

Mubarak came to power when he survived the assassination that killed Sadat. He was seriously wounded but survived an assassination attempt by the Muslim Brotherhood a few years into his rule. He's had six assassination attempts. It's not paranoia if they really are out to get you.

[hlthe2b]

30. I"m not saying he doesn't have justification...for his personal fears

[dipsydoodle]

31. Well at at least Israel threw in a bit a of help last night

when they scored an own goal or three.

In the latest developments, three Israeli soldiers have been killed by fire from one of their own tanks and two others died in separate incidents as forces press further south.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Israeli-Troops-Die-In-Friendly-Fire-As-Fighting-Continues-In-Gaza-Amid-Humanitarian-Crisis/Article/200901115197993?lpos=World_News_Carousel_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15197993_Israeli_Troops_Die_In_Friendly_Fire_As_Fighting_Continues_In_Gaza_Amid_Humanitarian_Crisis