Why Israel Can’t Make Peace With Hamas

[groovedaddy]

IN the summer of 2006, at a moment when Hezbollah rockets were falling virtually without pause on northern Israel, Nizar Rayyan, husband of four, father of 12, scholar of Islam and unblushing executioner, confessed to me one of his frustrations.

We were meeting in a concrete mosque in the Jabalya refugee camp in northern Gaza. Mr. Rayyan, who was a member of the Hamas ruling elite, and an important recruiter of suicide bombers until Israel killed him two weeks ago (along with several of his wives and children), arrived late to our meeting from parts unknown.

He was watchful for assassins even then, and when I asked him to describe his typical day, he suggested that I might be a spy for Fatah. Not the Mossad, mind you, not the C.I.A., but Fatah.

What a phantasmagorically strange conflict the Arab-Israeli war had become! Here was a Saudi-educated, anti-Shiite (but nevertheless Iranian-backed) Hamas theologian accusing a one-time Israeli Army prison official-turned-reporter of spying for Yasir Arafat’s Fatah, an organization that had once been the foremost innovator of anti-Israeli terrorism but was now, in Mr. Rayyan’s view, indefensibly, unforgivably moderate.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/14/opinion/14goldberg-1.html?th&emc=th

[Scurrilous]

1. Lies Jeffrey Goldberg Told Me (About Gaza)

<snip>

"The title of this post came to me as I was trying to assimilate Jeffrey Goldberg’s typically beside the point column in today’s N.Y. Times. The only thing I can say for it is that it’s not as wrongheaded as most of his work about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict usually is.

But the following passage brought to mind the title of the Canadian Jewish film, Lies My Father Told Me, because here Goldberg shows that he’s laboring under terrible delusions and completely misunderstands the current political environment in Palestinian society, especially Gaza:

“There is a fixed idea among some Israeli leaders that Hamas can be bombed into moderation. This is a false and dangerous notion. It is true that Hamas can be deterred militarily for a time, but tanks cannot defeat deeply felt belief.

The reverse is also true: Hamas cannot be cajoled into moderation. Neither position credits Hamas with sincerity, or seriousness.

The only small chance for peace today is the same chance that existed before the Gaza invasion: The moderate Arab states, Europe, the United States and, mainly, Israel, must help Hamas’s enemy, Fatah, prepare the West Bank for real freedom, and then hope that the people of Gaza, vast numbers of whom are unsympathetic to Hamas, see the West Bank as an alternative to the squalid vision of Hassan Nasrallah and Nizar Rayyan.”

Goldberg actually believes that Fatah can lead the Palestinian people to “freedom?” How? What has it achieved on this long road to freedom so far? And you’ll notice that he only goes so far as to say that Fatah’s “friends” among the nations should “help” prepare it for freedom. Prepare? What does this mean? How long will this process take before anyone actually deigns to give Palestine its freedom? Really, Goldberg is quite ridiculous.

Further, Goldberg calls feebly on Israel and the U.S. to “help” lay the groundwork for such freedom. Like they’ve “helped” up till now? In the past eight years, tell me one thing Israel in particular has done to help Fatah appear to be a more attractive choice to the Palestinian people?

But the portion of this passage that really takes the cake is the one in which Goldberg claims, with absolutely no proof whatsoever, that there are “vast numbers” of Gazans who are “unsympathetic” to Hamas. Perhaps Goldberg might want to take a walk in the streets of Gaza right about now, if he could avoid being hit by one of his country’s missiles, and ask the average Gazan whether they are “unsympathetic” to Hamas. This notion is part of the Israeli delusion that by bombing Gaza back to the Stone Age this will somehow turn the Gazans against Hamas. Anyone with eyes in their head can foresee that the only party they will turn against and blame in this situation would be Israel.

What do the Times’ editors see in this guy? They print the propaganda and delusions of Benny Morris and Jeffrey Goldberg as if they were oracular wisdom about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It’s little short of sickening."

http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2009/01/14/lies-jeffrey-goldberg-told-me-about-gaza/

[Idealism]

2. When you traumatize a society for generations, this is the result

[GoesTo11]

4. Religious fanaticism doesn't help

If you read the article, it's got all this stuff about how Mohammed turned Jews into apes and pigs. Hamas really believes this nonsense. How do you deal with people who are not just traumatized but crazy?

[Idealism]

5. It comes down to religious fanaticism and military fanaticism

Who is to say which is more unreasonable? The open statements by people who have no need for filters or the misleading/false releases from a government that admitted to having a propaganda engine? Dwight Eisenhower warned against the military-industrial complex just as Israel was becoming a state, look at our her now...

[Crunchy Frog]

34. Religious fanaticism seems to be an outgrowth of trauma.

Wish that it wasn't that way, but it seems to simply be a part of human nature. The more wretched, miserable, and traumatized people are, the more likely they are to turn towards religious fanaticism. The only way to turn it around is probably to provide some sorts of alternatives.

[Vegasaurus]

6. No, the real problem is Arabs who don't want Jews living there

and have been terrorizing them for 100 years to get them to leave.

Hamas has promised its people that they will retake ALL of Israel,

They consider every square inch of Israel occupied, and will not stop resisting ever, until they achieve that goal.

Since they really aren't going to achieve that goal, the real goal is just to make everyone as miserable as possible.

WHo can make peace with such a people?

It's impossible.

[Idealism]

7. Xenophobic, unreasonable, and wrong.

[Vegasaurus]

8. Hamas are the xeonophobes

who want to murder every Jew in the middle east.

[Idealism]

9. "The real problem is Arabs." Did you not just write that inane nonsense?

[Vegasaurus]

10. ...who don't want Jews living in the middle east"

Yes, that is a fact.

Do some reading, and you will be enlightened.

Start around 1900, if you like.

[Idealism]

11. You paint all Arabs with the broad brush of racism

You think they all don't like Jews or want to see Israel demolished, you are an utter fool. There may be some Arabs who think this, but they are the minority. Most even in Gaza support a two state solution, so quit with your bullshit whining about how "all arabs want jews to die" and other xenophobic propaganda. You. are. wrong.

[Vegasaurus]

12. It isn't all Arabs who hate Jews and want Israel demolished

Just Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, all the other militant groups, and all their supporters.

Probably a solid majority of Palestinians hold these views, as well as a lot of the people in the arab world (if you happen to read their press or listen to their religious and poltical leaders speak).

The truth hurts.

[Idealism]

14. "Probably a solid majority of Palestinians hold these views."

You are an expert on the Palestinians I see. You have personally interviewed hundreds of thousands of them, right? Here is a hint: most Palestinians don't get to speak out or release statements to the outside world!

City Village Refugee camp Total
Two states for two people 55.8% 50.0% 48.4% 53.6%

http://www.neareastconsulting.com/surveys/gaza/p211/out_ct_d10_q21.php

Weird, most Gazan's support two-state solutions? BUT I THOUGHT THEY ALL HATED THE JEWS?!

[The Stranger]

29. Actually, while Jews were being murdered in European pogroms, they were safe in the Middle East, for

millenia.

Maybe that is why you want to limit reading to 1900, but that won't fly here.

[azurnoir]

18. Are you sure you want to take that tack

Hamas are the xeonophobes

Think about that a moment

[EFerrari]

3. Wow. That was ugly. The real question is if Israel can maintain a ceasefire at all.

[Lithos]

13. You do realize that both sides violated the terms of the cease fire?

Almost continuously? Rocket fire was just one aspect.

L-

[EFerrari]

15. Israel never honored the terms of the ceasefire in the first place, did they,

in not lifting the siege. And this morning on Amy's show, Professor Shlaim said something very interesting:

"Now, let me give you some figures, which I think are the most crucial figures in understanding this conflict. Before the ceasefire came into effect in July of 2008, the monthly number of rockets fired—Kassam rockets, homemade Kassam rockets, fired from the Gaza Strip on Israeli settlements and towns in southern Israel was 179. In the first four months of the ceasefire, the number dropped dramatically to three rockets a month, almost zero. I would like to repeat these figures for the benefit of your listeners. Pre-ceasefire, 179 rockets were fired on Israel; post-ceasefire, three rockets a month. This is point number one, and it’s crucial.

And my figures are beyond dispute, because they come from the website of the Israeli Foreign Ministry. But after initiating this war, this particular table, neat table, which showed the success of the ceasefire, was withdrawn and replaced with another table of statistics, which is much more obscure and confusing. Israel—the Foreign Ministry withdrew these figures, because it didn’t suit the new story.

The new story said that Hamas broke the ceasefire. This is a lie. Hamas observed the ceasefire as best as it could and enforced it very effectively. The ceasefire was a stunning success for the first four months. It was broken not by Hamas, but by the IDF. It was broken by the IDF on the 4th of November, when it launched a raid into Gaza and killed six Hamas men."

[Lithos]

16. Couple of points

The opening of the crossings into Israel was predicated upon the ceasefire being maintained, not a parallel thing. Israel did open the crossings, but shut them down again for a short period each time the ceasefire was breeched. Doesn't matter if Hamas did the actual launching or not, the truce was based on ALL attacks stopping and Hamas signed on board knowing it had to control all attacks. Doesn't matter if Hamas tried or not, the were still responsible.

There were enough attacks though that meant that the border was sealed for a significant period of time. (30 or so attacks meant that the crossing was shut down for about 45 days or so - significant in terms of being a disruption.) IMHO, I also think that Israel probably could have done more to streamline or optimize the traffic coming in which they did not by increasing the capacity of the crossings. Israel's zone of control around the specific border was also provocative.

Even so, Hamas did several things in between which also violated the truce including building hundreds of smuggling tunnels to bring in arms for the expressed purpose of launching a near term attack, training their troops in operations to kidnap Israeli soldiers (they seem to have a fixation on this) with one aborted attempt launched from Gaza through Egypt to kidnap an Israeli soldier (can't remember the date, but I think it was Sept.).

The actual events of Nov. 4th are also not really in favor of Hamas. Hamas build the tunnel under the border to kidnap an Israeli soldier. Israel sent in troops to destroy it, Hamas attacked and it escalated from there. If Hamas was interested in peace, why build the tunnel?

But the more important point is this. It is extremely partisan and extremely deluding to try and point the finger at ONE party. The truth is that NEITHER party acted responsibly before Nov. 4th, on Nov. 4th, or post Nov 4th. *EITHER* side could have avoided this march to war, but *NEITHER* side did. Both sides are therefore responsible for this mess. The only victims in this mess are those stuck in the middle.

[EFerrari]

17. I respectfully disagree, Lithos.

Why build the tunnels? Let me answer that with a question: did the Israelis suspend their military resupply during this period? I think not.

And while the "tunnels for kidnapping" is a widely circulated story, do you suppose those tunnels were only used for military purposes?

Lastly: we are not speaking of a contest between matched adversaries but between an occupier and an occupied people. Of a power imbalance so profound that calling Lead Cast a war is gross misrepresentation. I am no fan of the PA or Hamas political leadership, not at all. But to make the sides in this conflict into some kind of evenhanded equivalents isn't accurate, either.

I do agree with you about the people. However, the Israeli people are only at the periphery of this and there is no real comparison to the residents of Gaza.

[Lithos]

20. Tunnels, etc.

Hamas had full control over the tunnels between Egypt and Gaza. Most of the military supplies which Hamas is using, including the base material to build the rockets, were brought in over those tunnels. Yes, there were hundreds of tunnels used for commercial purposes, but there were also hundreds used for military resupply purposes as well.

However, the Nov. 4th tunnel was from Gaza to Israel, not from Gaza to Egypt. I would doubt any theory which suggested this was for "smuggling".

It is a war much as Vietnam, Cambodia, the Huks (Philippines), and Afghanistan were wars. The goals and capabilities of the two military groups are significantly different, but Hamas' militants have several advantages which they are using. Asymmetric warfare does not mean lopsided and without doubt.

As for occupiers and occupied people, I will disagree there. The mentality may be there, but Israel is not the sole party now to this siege mentality.

As for evenhanded equivalents, there is a difference between understanding what is going on and approving of it. Both sides wanted this fight, in fact if you want the analogy, this was the "break" between two fighters who were circling each other trying to find an opening to go back at each other. Either one could have walked out on the mess. To me that makes them both responsible.

L-

[DogPoundPup]

21. Israeli marine attacks Palestinian fishing boats off Gaza water (july 2008)

GAZA, July 20 (Xinhua) -- Israeli marine vessels opened fire at Palestinian fishing boats on the sea off northwest Gaza Strip early Sunday, violating a fragile ceasefire, security sources said.

The shootings, in which shells and gunshots were used, lasted for 10 minutes in the first round and about seven minutes in the second, the sources said. No casualties were reported, but some boats were damaged, he added.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-07/20/content_8587708.htm

[Lithos]

33. Mostly watercannon

Which were what damaged the boats. And the guns were not aimed. The boats had exceeded the imposed 6 mi limit.

I agree the 6 mi. limit is bad, but it was the defacto border at the time of the truce.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EFerrari]

22. Walking out of Gaza may not be the apt figure here. n/t

[Lithos]

26. Hamas didn't have a problem doing that

But the common people, yes.

[EFerrari]

27. It's always easier for the powerful to survive than it is for the people.

This constant bashing of Hamas will not help anyone. If there is to be peace in Gaza, whoever is in power must be engaged. The insurgents have to be helped to make the transition into politics because that is the process that plays out everywhere there is an insurgency that resolves.

[Lithos]

28. I agree there

The issue is one of fear. People are going to have to let go of their fear and take a chance. Hamas and Likud both benefit from fear.

L-

On Edit: Part of what I bash when I talk about Hamas is the military wing. Hamas (and Hezbollah) are structurally alike to Sein Fein and the IRA with the exception that the military portion of both Hamas and Hezbollah have a MUCH higher degree of integration, control and dominance than the IRA ever had over Sein Fein. It was only when Sein Fein finally divorced itself from the IRA was a lasting peace more or less obtained.

To be honest, I will probably always dis the military (IRA-like) wing of Hamas as I think they are so blind with hate and fanaticism that they really don't care what happens to the people of Palestine so long as they can kill Israel.

L-

[EFerrari]

31. Yep. Fear and brutality. I'm looking forward to the next election

in El Salvador where one formerly insurgent group who did manage to transit into politics will likely win as the progressive party.

But, that little country benefited from the neglect of BushCo who was busy elsewhere.

[Lithos]

32. There are examples where groups transitioned

Sein Fein & the IRA is the example which comes to mind most often for me. But there are many examples where groups dominated by hate fared poorly in this transition - an example being the Khmer Rouge.

L-

[EFerrari]

36. That's very true. There are insurgent groups that are little more than criminal enterprises

from start to finish whether they cloak themselves in religion or not. I wouldn't bet on Hamas although at one time, they were somewhat active in trying to do things for the population. I wouldn't bet on the Northern Alliance, either, although our government has. In fact, the Northern Alliance has behaved even worse to their population than Hamas has, iirc, but they happened to be on the lucky side of American politics. :shrug:

[DogPoundPup]

23. Jewish guerrillas told British: quit Palestine or die

Fighters were led by future Israeli premier

A pamphlet warning Britons to leave the Middle East or face death has come to light in a stash of illicit propaganda.

The document does not hail from Basra or Baghdad, nor was it penned by the Islamists of al-Qaeda or the al-Mahdi Army. It was found in Haifa, about 60 years ago, and it was issued by the underground group led by Menachem Begin – the future Prime Minister of Israel and winner of the Nobel Peace Prize.

The document, which surfaced at an auction house this week, is addressed to “the soldiers of the occupation army” and aimed at British soldiers serving in Palestine, then under the British Mandate, preceding the establishment of Israel in 1948. The print has faded and the paper has discoloured since it was unearthed from a grove of trees in Haifa in the summer of 1947. Yet the language and the concerns remain current.

Bombings and murders by underground groups, such as Begin’s Irgun, hastened the British withdrawal and the United Nations declaration that led to the founding of modern Israel.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article4360655.ece

[Lithos]

25. And your point is?

The Irgun were terrorists at the time it was done. The British operations against them were well within normal protocol at the time.

However, the Irgun were rather bit part players at this time. The main players on the Jewish settler side were the Palmach/Haganah. Even so, the British left not because of the Irgun or even the Haganah's operations against them, but from the lack of stomach for trying to maintain a truce between the Palestinians and the Jewish settlers. It was post WW II and Britain was suffering economically at home (the population was starving in England - everyone remember the bad joke of the 1960's British Invasion rockstar w/ bad teeth caused by bad diet?) and they had no interest in maintaining the vast number of troops either in India, or in the Middle East necessary to preserve them for Queen, etc..

L-

[DogPoundPup]

35. 11-year-old Palestinian killed by Border Guard police officer

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3575353,00.html

[Chulanowa]

19. You're very incorrect

The ceasefire was not breached by Hamas. A couple rockets were fired by other organizations, from the Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade, to some startup nobodies calling themselves the Badr Brigade. Hell, even Islamic Jihad came out of the nursing home to toss its dentures across the border. And Hamas went after all of them for it. You see, the problem is like with cops in America - Cops can't prevent crime. They can only go after perps. Saying you're going to bomb the shit out of the police station if they don't prevent crime is like saying you'll bomb it no matter what, right?

Further, it was a ceasefire, not a ceasedigging. Further those tunnels were primarily used from getting food and water from Egypt - in fact the tunnels that still exist are still being used to smuggle food and water. You see, funny thing about Israel blockading an area of land without its own supply of fresh water is that people gotta get their water from somewhere, right?

November 4th was actually Israel launching several missiles into noth Gaza, killing seven in a targeted assassination against some members of the Al-Aqsa Marty's Brigade. On November 5th, they bombed the tunnels, and of course came up with this cockamamie explanation of sneaking through Egypt into Israel to kidnap some dude that was aborted because of something and all the water and potato chips in the tunnels were just decoys for the nukes htey were smuggling or... fuck, I dunno, the story kept changing.

Point is, Israel is clearly in fault as to breaking the cease-fire. Even CNN, Israel's personal media bidet, is saying "Israel broke the cease-fire". Even fucking Israeli officials are saying Israel broke the ceasefire (though those officials are also quick to say Israel had no choice because the stars were right or whatever). Get with the program.

[Lithos]

24. Your time line is wrong

There was no targeted assassination against Al-Aqsa in Gaza on/around that time period.

From the Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians):

Israeli troops crossed into the Gaza Strip late last night near the town of Deir al-Balah. The Israeli military said the target of the raid was a tunnel that they said Hamas was planning to use to capture Israeli soldiers positioned on the border fence 250m away. Four Israeli soldiers were injured in the operation, two moderately and two lightly, the military said.

One Hamas gunman was killed and Palestinians launched a volley of mortars at the Israeli military. An Israeli air strike then killed five more Hamas fighters. In response, Hamas launched 35 rockets into southern Israel, one reaching the city of Ashkelon.

As you can see, each side responded with increasing force levels. The tunnel itself was an initial provocation, Israel then launched a raid to destroy it, then mortars, then an air raid, then rockets. Had either side wanted to, they could easily have stopped at any point along this or any subsequent point.

L-

[DogPoundPup]

30. Israeli marine attacks Palestinian fishing boats off Gaza water (July 2008)

GAZA, July 20 (Xinhua) -- Israeli marine vessels opened fire at Palestinian fishing boats on the sea off northwest Gaza Strip early Sunday, violating a fragile ceasefire, security sources said.

The shootings, in which shells and gunshots were used, lasted for 10 minutes in the first round and about seven minutes in the second, the sources said. No casualties were reported, but some boats were damaged, he added.

On June 19, an Egyptian-brokered ceasefire took effect between Palestinian militant groups led by Hamas and Israel to halt cross-border attacks and ease the blockade that Israel imposed on Gaza when Hamas took over the territory by force last year.

On Saturday, the armed wing of Hamas threatened to withdraw from the ceasefire and to resume attacks against Israel to overcome the Gaza siege.

The Ezz el-Deen al-Qassam Brigades published a statement on its website saying that "the occupation still delays the implementation of the lull's obligations and if these violations continued, we will look for a new stance regarding the lull."

Hamas said Israel did not properly lift the embargo on Gaza despite the suspension of Palestinian rocket attacks.

Meanwhile, Israel arrested two Palestinians on Sunday in the West Bank which stays out of the current stage of the ceasefire deal. Israeli sources said the "wanted Palestinians" were arrested in Nablus and Hebron and were taken for interrogation.
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-07/20/content_8587708.htm