200+ sign document condemning PA inaction, calling for national struggle government

[ProgressiveMuslim]

Date: 17 / 01 / 2009 Time: 21:09


Ramallah – Ma’an – More than 200 Palestinian political and civil society leaders and scholars signed a petition stating their position as with the Palestinian resistance and with the people of Gaza who are still under Israeli fire.

The document went further and rejected the actions of the Palestinian Authority in repressing the demonstrations against the Israeli actions in Gaza. The PA has stationed police and Special Forces at gathering sites around the West Bank every Friday since the Gaza invasion began.

Those who signed the document affirmed that it is not the acts of the Palestinian resistance that is hurting Gazan citizens, but rather the Israeli occupation and silence from all parties. The document condemned the strategy of blaming Israel’s victim for the crimes of the aggressor.

The document called for the formation of an international investigation into Israeli war crimes in Gaza.

Mustafa Al-Barghuthi, Secretary General of the Palestinian National Initiative and founder of the document, said in a Ramallah press conference on Saturday that the document “is a joint vision affirming the right of the Palestinians in resisting.”

He called for the formation of a national leadership based on the principal of resistance and national struggle. He criticized the PA for the mistakes it made during the Israeli war on Gaza, particularly for not attending the Doha summit.


Some of the over 200 who signed the document were:

Mamduh Al-A'kar
Mustafa Al-Barghuthi
Shafiq Al-Hut
Sullieman Abu Seta
Bilal Al-Hasan
Archbishop Attallah Hana
George Jaqaman
Kamel Qustandi
Khaleel Tuma
Ziad Darweesh
Sari Hanafi

http://maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=35063

[GoesTo11]

1. Maybe the PA knows that Hamas starts unjust wars

like it did with the PA.

[vadawg]

3. was thinking that myself

also i dont think the PA wants to sign onto what would be a declaration of war against israel, i think they are hopeful that israel will put down Hamas and allow the PA to take control of Gaza.

[Chulanowa]

4. You STILL suck at history.

Does it literally take a drill bit and a funnel to get facts down to that quivering grey blob locked within your skull?

Israel started this war. It shot first, it did all the invading and all the killing - Hell, last I heard, the IDF had killed more IDF soldiers in Gaza than Hamas had, though that was last week.

Similarly the fighting between Hamas and Fatah was due to Fatah refusing to acknowledge Hamas had won in Gaza, and then started taking Israeli and American funding and encouragement in order to try to stage a coup. Fatah got their asses kicked for doing dumb shit, and there are no shortage of other losing parties in other countries who have also had to have their asses kicked when htey do dumb shit.

[henank]

6. I guess Hamas declaring the ceasefire over

and shooting 80 rockets per day at Israel counts as "Israel shooting first".

Well, whatever. I have no expectations from some people on DU.

[Chulanowa]

7. It does when it's retaliation

I've already explained the timeline of the current war in Gaza about fifty times. I'm tired of doing so. On november 4th, Israel conducted missile strikes against targets supposedly belonging to the Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade. The next day, Israel did a bombing run in southern Gaza. These attacks within Gaza broke the cease-fire. Even Israel admits as such - with of course the statement that they felt it necessary to do so. Hamas shot back. Israel shot back, back. So on and so forth, typical cycle of violence, and here we are today, with me, once again, educating someone who's spent the last nearly three months digging for gold in their nose and wondering if the American Idol vote was rigged.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Chulanowa]

29. My organization?

The only organization I'm part of is the SEIU Health Worker's union.

I'm not entirely certain what your links have to do with the June 19 cease-fire, however.

[pelsar]

11. perhaps you've explained...but you've explained wrong....

keeping out relevant information can be exhausting...here i'll fill the gaps that either you dont know about or dont care to know about:

first it wasnt a cease fire...it was a calming period, tahdiya, .which means each side still shoots, just a lot less. Of course its risky since a kassam might land on a school kill some kids and that would be the end of the tahdiya or an israeli raid might...but it didnt.......at any rate it held all the way to Dec 19 which was its expiration date.....


Hamas on Thursday declared an end to a six-month-old Egyptian-brokered ceasefire with Israel in the Gaza Strip, raising the prospect of an escalation in cross-border fighting.

"The calm is over," Hamas official Ayman Taha said in an announcement after concluding talks with Palestinian factions in the coastal enclave controlled by the Islamist group.

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSLI75623220081218?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews

and that is how it ended....not because of any specific kassams or raids or anything else israel did on November 4 (over a MONTH earlier)

now i'm sure your going to have to find some very imaginative excuse as to why hamas waited over a month and half to declare the tahdiya over, without even mentioning the raid...but i'm sure you'll think of something good, after all, its no fun if you cant blame israel, it would really ruin everything if they had even an ounce of right on their side.

[shira]

20. ouch

pretty difficult for the blame Israel crowd to dispute that narrative killer

[Chulanowa]

31. Actually it wasn't

A couple minutes of basic research shredded it pretty quickly.

Since you're in the number, can you tell me why it's so hard for you and others who unconditionally support Israel to look stuff up? Is it just fear that your years of ideology might be upset, or is it some sort of psychological flaw that goes hand in hand with moral absolutism?

[shira]

34. ok then....

...so tell us why Hamas pretended to go along with the "ceasefire" 6 more weeks until deciding not to renew it Dec. 19? If it was "broken", why did it remain in effect until Dec. 19?

You know the difference between a calming period and what Hamas did Christmas week when they shot off 300 rockets, right?

[Chulanowa]

41. Uh, they didn't.

Did you miss the part where I stated that the shooting had already cone up to pre-ceasefire levels? All the statement from Hamas on December 18 meant was that they weren't renewing the cease-fire. It was broken on the 4th of November, but it expired on December 19. It was a six-month truce that got broken and then was not renewed.

You can keep trying to redefine this thing all you want, Shira, but it's not going to work for you. Please, please research your arguments before making them. Knee-jerk appeals to emotion, wild-eyed sensationalism, and made-up bullshit will never get you anywhere.

[shira]

42. so using your argument

why was the calming period broken by Israel when they only responded to Hamas' tunnel infraction? Or is the tunnel not a violation - but reaction to it is? Please explain.

Turn it around.

Had Israel dug the tunnel for military purposes, and shot 30-40 rockets into Gaza from June 18 to Nov 4, that wouldn't have counted as violations? Hamas' reaction would have counted, not Israel's provocations?

[Chulanowa]

43. Cut the newspeak bullshit

Again, no matter what you have decided to call it in your pretend-o-verse, it was a ceasefire.

Hamas dug the tunnels to get around the border blockade that Israel had agreed to drop as part of the cease-fire agreement - but did not do. The tunnels were used primarily for human needs - food, water, construction materials. Quite probably some weapons went through as well, yes.

But to answer your question, no, that would not break the cease-fire.

Know why?

Because those weapons weren't being fired. Now, Israel can feel justified in breaking the cease-fire by bombing southern Gaza to close those tunnels, sure. But they're still the ones breaking the cease-fire, and no amount of shitty logic or wordsmithing from you is going to be able to change that.

And yes, those 30-40 rockets, fired by Islamic Jihad and Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade? You know, Hamas' political rivals, those groups who had a vested interest in seeing Hamas fail, for their own gain? The guys that Hamas got on the asses of for their attempts to upset the truce? Even killing a few? Those thirty or forty rockets? Credit to Israel, they're smarter than you, and knewe that those assholes were out to screw the situation up, and let Hamas handle it for the most part.

Unfortunately for both Gazans, and those Israelis within rocket range, Israel chose to not uphold its side of the cease-fire agreement, and then decided to attack first.

Tell me Shira, did you support George Bush's decision to do the same thing in Iraq as fervently as you're supporting Israel doing it to Gaza?

[pelsar]

46. education time

Hamas dug the tunnels to get around the border blockade that Israel had agreed to drop as part of the cease-fire agreement - but did not do. The tunnels were used primarily for human needs - food, water, construction materials. Quite probably some weapons went through as well, yes

2 points for your education:

1) the tunnel that israel blew up was going in to Israel..not egypt. the smuggling tunnels were north rafah to south rafah.....nothing was going east or north to israel but "attack/kidnap" tunnels.- the one that was blown up.

2) you actually wrote as if you know israel agreed to leave the tunnels alone?....first of all, there is no way israel would "leave alone" a tunnel that is intended to enter israel, secondly how would you even know what was the agreement?

and this is just funny:
Quite probably some weapons went through as well, yes....quite possibly?.....if not through the tunnels where do you think all those grads rockets/RPG/Mortars came from?....thin air?

[Chulanowa]

53. Literacy test time

1) The tunnels went into Egypt. Israel claimed those tunnels were going to result in kidnappings, that Hamas was going to sneak around the border blockade, through Egypt, back into Israel, nab someone, and then hustle back to Egypt and into Gaza. Of course, there was no evidence to support this claim.

2) No. Israel agreed to lift the blockade on the crossings in and out of Gaza, as part of the cease-fire agreement. They then refused to do so. Thus the reason for the tunnels in the first place. The whole border blockade thing and the resultant humanitarian crisis in Gaza was big news through the summer, did you miss it?

And again. Becoming armed does not break the cease-fire. Firing them breaks the cease-fire. Do you think Israel stopped buying and producing weapons and ammunition during the cease-fire? Of course they didn't. Why should they?

[pelsar]

55. comprehension and research are your friends....

the Israeli army said the clashes erupted late Nov 4 after its forces uncovered a tunnel in central Gaza

http://www.articlearchives.com/international-relations/national-security-foreign/2212119-1.html
http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-35938930_ITM

those who actually do keep up with the real events and understand the geography understand that central gaza has no "outlet to egypt...only to israel, hence the tunnel was headed toward israel...(you've actually confused several actual incidents of Palestenians trying to get to israel via the long egyptian/israeli border.

again your pretending you know what the conditions of the "calming period" were....yet you wont find a written document to support your imagination....but you can try...and if you cant, perhaps you can explain why you believe you actually know?

as far as i understood the conditions never changed: no kassams, open borders, kassams borders closed, but i never read a written document so am only assuming.

___

as far as becoming armed during the period...i never claimed getting armed broke their agreement(not that i would know anyway)...your simply making another assumption based on ......imagination...which is quite active as were seeing.

[Chulanowa]

57. Okay, my mistake

My brain was focused on the November 5th bomb run on the southern Gaza tunnels that led into Egypt.

Still, you might want to have a talk with Israel about their repeated use of the term "cease-fire" instead of your preferred "calming period" - Is it that you hold Jews in the same intellectual contempt you hold Arabs, or are you just horribly uninformed?

[pelsar]

58. sloppy writing is sloppy writing...

dont care if the journalist is arab, jew, budhist, or from PETA.....the word used by the various hamas spokesman was: tahdiya.....same word used in the hebrew press....arabic has different words for cease fire....

the english papers sometimes used it, other times not.....some journalist were lazy, others probably ignorant,

[Chulanowa]

59. Ah huh

So either you're saying Israelis are bad at English, or they have no comprehension of their own words. Thus my question as to your opinion of their intellectual capabilities, Peshar - I'm going by statements from Israeli media and press, not western interpretations of their words. If Israel chooses to grace us with the word "cease-fire" well, I have enough confidence in their cognitive and linguistic abilities to assume they mean, you know, cease-fire. If they didn't, I would assume that they would say what they actually meant. I would also assume - though with less certainty - that the Western press, with its habit of falling over itself to please Israel, would have done its best to make that particular situation clear. The same goes for Hamas, who consistently used the terms "truce" and "Cease-fire" in English interviews - and I would expect the western media to poke as many holes as possible into their statements.

Now so far, it seems to be pretty much you, Shira, and a couple foamingly anti-Palestinian sites I've found on the internet that are straining at the bit to call it anything but a cease-fire. I could go into why that is, but that would just be pedantic, as I'm sure you know why already.

However, the point of fact is, whatever you want to call it Israel is the one who resumed hostilities first. Israeli officials have stated as such, and unless you're going to try (again!) to tell me Israelis don't know what the fuck falls out of their mouths when they speak, I don't think there's a lot you can do to argue this point. Again, Israel can feel as justified in doing so as it wants... It still started opening fire first. And then conducted a ground invasion. And just happened to kill nearly two thousand people, left four thousand wounded, and fifty thousand homeless in so doing.

So basically what Israel is saying here is... they have a right to violate an agreement and then ROYALLY FUCK 56,000 people because they think Hamas might have been trying to kidnap a guy. They don't actually know, 'cause they killed everyone who was digging. And you, Shira, and so many others are going "FUCK YES!" in response.

I want you to answer my question. Were you so bold and eager in your support when it came to the invasion of Iraq? If you think the killing of two thousand people because of suspected intent is okay, then what did you think of the obliteration of Fallujah after the killing of three mercenaries?

[shira]

60. another EPIC FAIL

1. If you wish to call it a ceasefire, did Hamas not break it first with their tunnel into Israel? Remember that tunnels had been utilized before in order to attack/kidnap IDF soldiers.

2. A ceasefire means precisely that. No rockets. Ever. Hamas is responsible for them. About 40 rockets/mortars were fired into Israel prior to Nov 4. Does that not constitute a breaking of the ceasefire? It could be argued 'NO', if it weren't really a ceasefire but in reality, a "tadiyah" (calming period).

3. Hamas declared war on Israel with 300 rockets fired Christmas week. THEIR choice. Or do you believe they're too irresponsible and stupid for their actions due to Israel "first" provoking them Nov. 4th......so therefore it's Israel's fault Hamas wanted war after Dec 18?

4. And why wait until Dec 18 to declare an end to the Tadiyah? Why not go full-out right after Nov 4? Hamas didn't do this. They waited 6 weeks later. Proving whatever agreement they had with Israel was STILL in effect.


EPIC FAIL.


5. As for being against/for Iraq invasion, the US was under zero threat from Iraq. About a half-million or more Israelis are under threat from Hamas rockets. 300 rockets during Christmas week constitutes a real threat. No, it doesn't constitute an EXISTENTIAL threat - but a threat nonetheless that NO country in the world would just ignore and let happen without a military response. And no, like most Israelis and Jews, I was against the USA going to war with Iraq.

[shira]

63. and further, here's Mashaal saying the tahdiyah ends Dec 18

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx0VXskjoqI&feature=related

Look 0:28 seconds into the video at his precise words. It never ended on Nov 4. Hamas decided to end it Dec 18. And they did it in grand form, with 300 rockets Christmas week. They didn't have to do it; nor were they forced to. They can think for themselves.

So how's about now we end this propaganda campaign about Nov 4 being Israel's fault that prompted this war?

Note how the term "taddiyah" is utilized by Mashaal. According to Hamas, it was still in effect and only ended Dec 18.

[pelsar]

61. but i'm still waiting for the link....

what exactly was this agreement your so busy explaining ....will you please send me a link so that i may read it? ..i keep on asking for it.

they have a right to violate an agreement and then ROYALLY FUCK 56,000 people because they think Hamas might have been trying to kidnap a guy

I'm curious about the paragraphs that mention tunnels/attempts to kidnap israelis within israel and what israel may do about it.

i'll be waiting for the link so that i may read about it (or did you just make all this stuff up about knowing what the agreement was? )

link: http://www................

_____


as far as "groupthink" goes..you know when one person does something and everyone follows?...i was never a fan of that. You might try looking up tadiya and gaza and you will find quite a few articles etc where the journalists were more accurate. The translators in Haaretz and JP are generally americans working under a lot of pressure and do make mistakes.

and i just prefer to believe the hamas spokesman...it is after all their agreement, their words.

[Chulanowa]

30. I like how it's suddenly not a cease-fire

After having been referred to by Hamas and Israel and all other involved political and media parties as being a cease-fire since its inception in June, and further Israel's admission of breaking said cease-fire

The 2008 cease-fire was scheduled to end on December 19. it was not an indefinite truce. Hamas decided to not seek to extend it - Fighting had already ramped up to pre-June levels a few days after November 4th, and Israel had previously failed to meet its side of the agreement, with their refusal to open the border crossings.

Perhaps you should start informing yourself instead of continuing your own desperate self-delusion. Israel fucked up. It's just that simple here. I'm not going to satisfy your fantasy of me preaching that Israel's conducting some great evil - Attributing moral teams of perfect right and perfect wrong in this conflict is exactly why the situation is how it is - but it's plain and apparent that Israel messed up on this one. Is Hamas pure and innocent? Of course not, they could have decided to renew the agreement after December 19. They didn't, and their reasons for not doing so are perfectly understandable to me - as are Israel's reasons for shooting in the first place.

A deal is a deal, however. Israel broke this one.

[pelsar]

44. you should learn the local language....

or are you one of the "colonial types" that believe they know better than the locals "whats best for them"..because that certainly is the case here:

the word used by hamas is: tahdiya.....its not a cease fire, there is no exact english translation which is probably why you and so many others are confused. i understand there is a problem in accepting the fact that other languages might just have meanings that are not within the English language...but they exist.

not only does it only mean a calming, that the shooting can/will continue but there was also no written document...nothing signed.

so the whole concept of israel breaking a ceasefire that didnt exist is in fact nothing more than yours and others imagination.....do you think you can find where its written in the tahdiya that cross border raids "break it'?......(didnt think so)

but more so..and this is the best part..both hamas and israel Continued the Tahdiya, without interuption.....yes there was more shooting, but both of the locals factions decided that even that was in the framework of the tahdiya - so your telling those that made the agreement, that they are wrong?..and how do you know more than them?

so what do we see here? western progressive telling locals that the tahdiya was broken by israel...when great western progressive doesnt even know the definition of the word and doesnt understand how it works...

i guess we can call that the remnants of colonialism...(psst, learn the local language and customs before commenting on them)

[ProgressiveProfessor]

45. I saw in other places where it was being called a hudna.

Which is the correct reference. Note that a hudna is not exactly a ceasefire either.

[pelsar]

47. hudna is an actual cease fire...

its temporary in nature but is an actual cease-fire...the idea is that you get to "rearm" and then attack when ready....its not a cease-fire in order to end the hostilities.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

51. I understand the differences, but what was actually in place is the question

I am surprised that PM who claims to be so in touch with the people there has not brought that up yet.

[pelsar]

52. it was in all of the israeli/palestinian papers...

talk shows etc.....a tahdiya....we know the differences which is why when there was shooting (both sides shot far more than was in the papers-hamas attempting to plant bombs on the borders fence, IDF shooting at them, etc).

the nuancing of the arab political culture is using a bit beyond the west and doesnt translate very well into sound bytes. The simple facts and its definition were what actually happened in the field between the two parties. It doesnt translate well to many on the left as we see in the above posts.

(but I do enjoy the colonial type attitude that "they" with their superior knowledge seem to understand the events far better than the locals-them "brown peoples)

[Chulanowa]

54. So let me get this straight

You're calling me a colonialist...

But you're unquestioningly supporting a colonial-minded state that is itself the result of colonial-era asshattery at its finest?

Well, okay then.

Since you're trying to take me to task over second-guessing the locals, mind if I ask you why oh why Israel not only kept calling it a cease-fire, but has also admitted that it wasn't Hamas who broke said cease-fire? It really seems to be you and Shira who are trying to redefine the situation. I'm over here on the same page as Israel - it was a ceasefire, and Hamas did not break it. I don't know where the two of you are, but I'll set out a welcome mat for when the two of you decide to join us over here in reality.

[pelsar]

62. yes you have the classic colonialist attitude....

that you seem to know whats going on far better than the locals.....those that are actually involved...and involvement that touches upon the local language and culture. Worse you totally ignore what the Hamas spokesman have said when they decided not to continue the lull...because "you know better" or when hamas or israel decide when an agreement has been broken.....your actually saying that they are both wrong....and that is classic colonial attitude (the locals simply dont understand what the agreement is!)

you dont know either hebrew nor arabic (I'm assuming) hence your depending upon on english translations...and only those that have defined the "lull" as a ceasefire....there are infact others (look them up: tahadiya hamas)

i live in israel.....and we get to listen to the hamas spokesman as they speak...

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

5. Not surprising nor earth shattering either

PA can do little besides attend the peace conferences and issuing press releases. Their fighters were jailed or killed during the coup in Gaza. They will try and pickup the pieces with the support of Egypt, Saudi and others as the IDF withdraws.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

8. The quislings days are over. That's the bottom line. nt

[ohio2007]

10. but who are

the traitors and collaborators in these current events ?

[cali]

12. then what lies ahead, if the PA is out?

Will Hamas take the reins of power in the WB? How will that help the Palestinian people? It's clear you prefer Hamas to the PA, but are there other viable options that you prefer to Hamas?

[pelsar]

14. hamas is better?

god help the Palestinians if hamas gets the westbank as well......

[ProgressiveMuslim]

16. In fact, I do not prefer Hamas to Abbas, not by a long shot.

My choice for new PA president would be Moustapha Barghouti, a secular independent, who signed the statement.

Cali, it's clear that Abbas' sole goal is to retain his seat at the faux peace table. Every second he's in power is a second wasted. Though Israel would prefer to see him in power, his credibility among the peopel is nil.

It's time to end the faux peace process and recalibrate. Do you disagree?

[cali]

19. No, I don't disagree. I think new leadership is desperately needed

I do fear Hamas extending its control to the WB though, and i don't think they care whether Barghouti or Abbas is the PA President.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

23. Cali, with all due respect

I don't think your read of the situation is accurate.

It's not a matter of Hamas "extending its control" as though there is force involved.

At this point in time they are more popular for resisting. Period. That's why the 200 signed the document.

[cali]

27. Oh, I understand that Hamas has been boosted among the Palestinian

people, and I understand why, but extending control does not de facto denote use of force. And I think it would be an unmitigated disaster for the Palestinian people if Hamas extends its control. And I think Hamas has no use for ANY secular leadership.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

28. ??? Again, not sure what you mean about their "use" of secular leadership.

I don't think I'm following your assumptions.

I don't think we have the same understanding of past history.

No matter.

[shira]

21. so what are the chances Moustapha Barghouti becomes leader soon?

if chances are low, it seems you still prefer Hamas over the PA.

Wouldn't you at least like to see Gaza become more like the W.Bank, even under PA rule, where Palestinians live far better and the prospects for later election results (maybe a win for Barghouti) becomes more possible?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

22. Your comment is senseless.

Do you think the PA is a political party?

That's like saying "you don't support the knesset."

[shira]

26. Hamas vs. Fatah rule in Gaza

which would be better for Palestinians in your opinion, both short and long term, until someone like Barghouti is voted in? There are no other choices at this moment.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

32. Shira, are you asking if it would be better for Israel to destroy Hamas and install their chosen

administrator?

Are you serious?

[shira]

33. not at all

why are you evading the question?

Both options aren't great, but it seems to me based on a comparison between the situations in the W.Bank and Gaza that Fatah leadership > Hamas leadership. As bad as Fatah is, Hamas is far worse. It looks like if you care for Palestinian citizens, the choice should be obvious as to who is better for them until someone like Barghoutti comes to power.

Are you just unwilling to harshly critize and condemn Hamas as much or more than Fatah, for some reason?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

35. I'm not evading anything. Your question makes no sense.

There may be more money and goods available in the West Bank, but so what?

So their oppression is a little less obvious?

It is sickening to me that you actually hold up the West Bank model of oppression as something to which the people of Gaza should aspire.

The goal isn't a kinder, gentler Israeli tyranny. The goal is to END tyranny.

In no way do I wish to see a corrupt Fatah installed in Gaza.

Would you support banishing the current Israeli gov't -- which has broken international law and engaged in horrendous violence and bloodshed -- and importing a gov't that the US has handpicked? Of course not. In spite of the fact that they have behaved illegally and immorally, and hurt their country immeasurably.

Your double standard is mind boggling.

[shira]

36. Palestinian living conditions in the W.Bank

are far superior to those of Gaza.

In Gaza, Hamas has legalized Sharia Law, there is hardly any law and order there, fighting continues against Israel (which only endangers more Palestinians) and the economy and health conditions are deplorable.

Meanwhile, in the W.Bank, Palestinians have law and order, jobs and a better economy, plenty of health/food/aid, no terror which endangers Palestinians, etc.

If you care for Palestinians, how could you not favor the W.Bank situation (Fatah) over Gaza (the epic failure that is Hamas)?

==========

Now reading your post, your goal is to END TYRANNY.

And Hamas will do that better than Fatah, how?

If you do NOT wish to see a corrupt Fatah installed in Gaza - then it appears you prefer Hamas rule and significantly more miserable conditions for Palestinians. Do you think Palestinians suffering under the misery of Hamas, and who see the model in the W.Bank, appreciate that kind of support from you?

I thought you cared.

I wouldn't wish Hamas on Palestinians. They deserve better than that. Realizing Fatah sucks too, there is still no comparison between the two. Palestinians have no hope under Hamas. At least with Fatah, we see more movement towards a future settlement with Israel. Isn't that the goal?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

37. We really won't be able to compare models, because Abbas is dead in the water.

As he should be.

If you are seriously interested in how people in the Middle East ACTUALLY think, instead of how the the Bush/Rich/Israel triad (that you so clearly support) THINKS they should feel, you might want to read this article. Or not.

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2009/930/op10.htm

Remember Shira, in 1855, African-Americans didn't aspire to become house slaves... even though those in the house had it better, less work, better conditions, more comfy beds...they were slaves nonetheless and their status was equally reprehensible.

You will never be able to understand this conflict until you wrap your head around the fact that Israel's occupation, even in the cushier WB, is a form of unacceptable tyranny for ALL Palestinians. While life under a leader who collaborates may have material benefits, that is not the goal to which Palestinians aspire.

Life under Israel's violent military occupation would not be acceptable for me, or my family. It is not acceptable for Jewish Israelis. It is not acceptable for Palestinians Muslims or Christians either.

I realize that this back and forth with you is useless, as you will never recognize that Palestinians are fully human, and equally deserving of political and human rights as you are.

Have a nice day.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

39. Abbas is not dead in the water, no matter how much you wish it

He heads the PA, the only viable and recognized government for the Palestinians. He may not win the next election, but Hamas and its control over Gaza should be long gone by then

[shira]

40. I'm trying to understand, PM

I read the article and I'm still unsure of what idea you're trying to promote. I'm not saying that in the WB, things are great under occupation. It's my understanding that with a more stable WB that is able to enforce its own law and order, build its own economy, etc..., the ground is being set at the very least for a follow-up to the Annapolis accords (which is basically CD/Taba 2000).

I don't trust Fatah either, but isn't a stable WB and Gaza integral to any future peace deal?

I don't see how Hamastan, with a Taliban-like rule under Sharia Law, is a step toward the end of tyranny. It seems like a GIANT step backwards.

I mean, can you honestly say many Palestinians within the WB would want to trade places with Palestinians in Gaza?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

49. So let me understand your position. "A more stable WB" leads to what...?

The WB was quite stable in the 90s. What did it lead to? Doubling of settler population? What else?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

50. UN leader has just come out in support of the PA while criticizing both sides for violence

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/20/gaza.war.israel/

Al-Ahram is no more the voice of the the people the middle east any more than WND speaks for the US.

[Vegasaurus]

38. It's strange, isn't it Shira?

How people who claim to care so deeply about the Palestinians actually promote, in their own way, continued misery for the people?

How can anyone look at the mess in Gaza and not conclude that the better life in the West Bank is preferable?

I am certain that those in the WB don't want to trade places with their brothers in Gaza.

What is the best that the Gazans can hope for?

Sharia law, no human or civil rights, no freedoms, more war and strife.

In the WB, there is law and order, a growing economy and safety.

It's a no brainer.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

48. There have been a number of articles that point that out. Hamas has threatened to ruin that for all

Palestinians, and some are angry about this. Claims that the Arabs and Palestinians are unified etc as proffered by some are utter nonsense.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

25. The PA and Abbas are not out and are the legitimate government of Gaza

They will try and retake Gaza from Hamas as the IDF withdraws with support from Egypt and other neighboring states. Hamas has no international standing and no power except that of the gun

[ProgressiveProfessor]

15. PA remains in power and is internationally recognized, so there is not change

Lets see what elections bring, presuming Hamas does not stop them again by force.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

17. WTF are you talking about?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

18. Are you saying that Hamas are Quislings? There is some merit to that position

though its a little extreme.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

24. Seriously not worth my time.

Just becuase you're able to make a post here doesn't mean you should.

[azurnoir]

56. Get this

After I pointed out to onre of or two of our Pro Israeli folks here that the wiki site still listed Hamas as a party unser the PA umbrella the page was wait for it edited edit time This page was last modified on 20 January 2009, at 20:25 that would make it 325 pm EST or
225 pm CST the entire section listing all parties under PA was removed, can you any more pathetic or obvious but knowing how things work I save the original in it's entirety

[pelsar]

13. perhaps i can help explain...

as there were quite a few interviews with Palestinians in the westbank.....and a lot of politics:

to begin with the westbankers tend to look down upon their relatives in gaza..not as cosmopolitan as they themselves are....also they're still hurting over the fact that fatah was tossed out by hamas in gaza (the comments some made were not very nice....and had to do with hamas throwing some fatah people off buildings.....).....so some were not the sympathetic towards them.

also, the economy in the westbank is doing very well...and as one Palestinian said, we dont want israeli tanks in our streets messing up things....and of course they all know that hamas is gunning to take over the westbank and fatah is keeping the pressure on hamas to keep their heads down. Rallies and protest against israel would strengthen them.

and of course their might even be another reason...the most intelligent of all....that some in the westbank are realizing that the chosen path of violence toward israel has been nothing but a losing proposition as history has shown, and perhaps, just perhaps are looking at other ways.....maybe they are being forced to, either way it would be a good thing.