Likud Charter Does Not Recognize Palestine

[Turborama]

Go to the article itself to see the full context of why he's talking about this...

http://palestinechronicle.com/view_article_details.php?id=14772">By Frank Barat - London

01/31/2009

In the “Peace and Security” chapter of the Likud Party platform, a recent document (1999) it says initially that:

“Peace is a primary objective of the State of Israel. The Likud will strengthen the existing peace agreements with the Arab states and strive to achieve peace agreements with all of Israel’s neighbors with the aim of reaching a comprehensive solution to the Arab-Israeli conflict.”

But then it says about settlements:

“The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.”

Therefore annihilating the slightest chance of a two-state solution.

On Palestinian self-rule it says:

“The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river. The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel’s existence, security and national needs”

Therefore annihilating any chance of seeing a Palestinian sovereign state.

On Jerusalem:

“Jerusalem is the eternal, united capital of the State of Israel and only of Israel. The government will flatly reject Palestinian proposals to divide Jerusalem, including the plan to divide the city presented to the Knesset by the Arab factions and supported by many members of Labor and Meretz.”

Therefore annihilating any chance for future peace negotiations because east Jerusalem as capital of a future Palestinian state is non-negotiable for any Palestinian.

[Behind the Aegis]

1. And?

BTW...read the rules for the forum.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tripmann]

3. Oh, touché

:)

[Scurrilous]

4. National Union candidate: Kahane was right

Dr. Michael Ben-Ari, No. 4 on rightist party's Knesset list, offers to expel Israel's Arabs to countries such as Venezuela and Turkey, seeks to banish 'leftists' from High Court, and believes in rebuilding Temple in Jerusalem

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3665554,00.html

<snip>

"Eight days ahead of the general elections, and with polls predicting four Knesset seats for the National Union, Dr. Michael Ben-Ari – number four on the party's list and a man who defines himself "Kahane's student and follower" - is very likely to find himself in the Israeli parliament.

In a conversation with Ynet, Ben-Ari presented his proposed solution to the "problem" of Israeli Arabs, declared he would not be part of a Knesset that engages in negotiations with the Palestinians and explained his support for soldiers disobeying orders.

"I'm not the only one who represents (late Rabbi Meir) Kahane. He's represented by a great many people today, within the Knesset and outside it," Ben-Ari stated. "(Yisrael Beiteinu Chairman Avigdor) Lieberman masquerades as Kahane to win more mandates, (Likud MK) Limor Livnat also sounds like Kahane, and everybody realizes the need for a solution to the problem of Israeli Arabs – a subject which was once taboo.

"The saying, 'Kahane was right,' has already been used up. You can practically see how what Rabbi Kahane brought up 24 years ago has now become the central issue of this election campaign," he added.

Ben-Ari explained that his plan was to open a "humanitarian corridor" for Arabs to places like Turkey or Venezuela, and raise money worldwide that would go towards providing them with an "acclimatization grant" in their new countries."

[LeftishBrit]

5. The National Union are revolting; they come across as more-or-less equivalent to the BNP here...

except that our electoral system in the UK doesn't give these small ultra-right parties as much influence as the Israeli electoral system does. I used to be in favour of pure proportional representation, until I found out about the problems it causes in Israel.

[Idealism]

7. The National Union isn't revolting

They were always far right-wing. National Union/ National Religious Party is more precise name.

[LeftishBrit]

33. I meant 'revolting' as synonym for 'disgusting' - is it not used in the same way in America?

I know they were always far-RW.

[Ken Burch]

39. That was a joke in Mel Brooks "History of the World, Part I"

It was in the "Louis XIV" sequence:

Courtier: Your majesty, the peasants are revolting!
King(with a look of great disgust on his face): I know, I've seen them.

[iconicgnom]

8. Is the Likud less revolting?

[LeftishBrit]

34. Slightly less, but not much less.

They are nearly as bad with regard to Palestinians, but better with regard to Israeli Arabs, and, with some exceptions such as Feiglin, with regard to secularism vs. religious-nuttery.

[oberliner]

6. There is no sovereign Palestinian state for Israel to recognize

Whereas there is a sovereign state of Israel that Hamas does not recognize, and in whose charter they vow to destroy ("liberate").

Incidentally, Likud is not in power in Israel right now - let us hope it stay that way!

[iconicgnom]

9. whoa! Such absolute blindsided judgment!

I've never seen the like, before, in a broken haiku, or in a broken thought.

[oberliner]

11. I don't understand what you mean

Can you clarify?

Thanks!

[iconicgnom]

13. No. Your remark demonstrates that you haven't the capacity for self-reflection.

At any rate, with respect these issues.

A bit like some americans promoted the manufacture of "MX Peacekeeper" missiles, while deploring 1984'ish doublespeak in the old soviet union - blissfully unaware of the irony. It's hopeless trying to explain such irony to those who're heavily invested in remaining ignorant of it, or denying it. In any event, it's sufficient to point the irony out.

[oberliner]

18. Ok well thanks anyway

I am just not following what your point is.

[shaayecanaan]

19. The point is quite obvious...

why is it not "beyond the pale" to deny the right of Palestine to exist, whereas it is considered thus to deny the right of Israel to exist?

To say that denying the right of Palestine to exist is not egregious because thus far it has been prevented from existing in its full form anyway, is not very satisfactory.

Moreover, simply pretending to be naive and oblivious to this does not help your credibility.

[oberliner]

31. I just didn't get the "broken haiku" comment and other similar ones

I don't think that makes me naive or oblivious - the remarks were very oddly worded.

I disagree with Likud's position and I think that a Palestinian state should absolutely be created.

Once it is, I think Likud will have no choice but to recognize it.

[shaayecanaan]

35. Obviously...

whether it comes into being or not depends largely on whether parties like Likud are prepared to allow that to happen.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

10. Actually, I think a Likud victory might conceivably be a good thing.

None of the parties in Israel is interested in making peace. The only chance for peace will be if is imposed on Israel from outside, against its will, by the US.

However, Kadima will go on making enough noises about how they're still oppressing and occupying now, they're willing to think about talking about backing off a little if the Palestinians stop resisting them to keep the US molified and off their backs.

Whereas a Likud government may be evil enough that even the notorousiously biased US will have to step in to restrain them.

That's not likely though - I think that even then the US will probably go on giving Israel carte blanche, and so a Kadima victory is probably the least worst option. I'm not expecting it, though.

[oberliner]

12. I think we will end up seeing a unity government

With Kadima, Likud, and Labor joining forces and possibly leaving the more extreme smaller parties out in the cold.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

14. Well, we'll soon know...

N.T.

[Howardx]

15. parsing

likud is the topic, not israel. as you well know likud oppsoes establishing any such state.

[oberliner]

16. Israel currently exists as a country, Palestine does not

If a Palestinian state was established, Likud must recognize it.

[Turborama]

17. Impossible if you consider Likud's charter as it stands

Might be worth re-reading the OP... ;-)

[ProgressiveMuslim]

20. Yet sovereign Israel has no permanent borders to recognize.

Let's agree that both sovereign states should recognize each other with their permanent borders as the concluding phase of a peace process.

[Violet_Crumble]

22. They're opposed to a Palestinian state and support a Greater Israel...

Don't make out like it's a mere matter of recognition coz it's not and both Likud and Hamas are as bad as each other when it comes to this and trying to make out there's some difference coz Israel is a sovereign state is ridiculous...

[oberliner]

23. The PLO was opposed to the existence of Israel for a long time as well

But they changed their position - Likud would be forced to do the same.

[Violet_Crumble]

25. What does that have to do with what was said?

I'm not talking about any group changing their position - I was talking about yr attempt to make out that the Likud Charter's opposition to a Palestinian state and support for a Greater Israel was merely a matter of not recognising a non-state as a sovereign state...

[oberliner]

26. It is my contention that Likud would recongize a Palestinian state were one to exist

They would have no choice but to do so in my opinion.

[Violet_Crumble]

27. That's lovely and all, but it had nothing to do with what was said...

The Likud Charter is OPPOSED to the creation of a Palestinian state and all I'm interested in is correcting yr attempt to portray it as merely being a simple matter of not recognising a state until it exists....

[oberliner]

28. I think we are talking past each other

I agree with everything you are saying.

My only point is that there is a difference between Hamas not recognizing a state that currently does exist and Likud opposing the creation of a state that does not at this time exist.

[Violet_Crumble]

29. I'm not talking past you at all....

And it'd be hard to agree with everything I'm saying, since I'm saying slight differences can be found in every situation that ever happens and bringing them up as though they make a difference is a bit silly.

[oberliner]

30. You make it hard to express agreement!

I am trying to concede every point you are making as true!

And you do seem to agree with me also (although you think my point is silly).

[ProgressiveMuslim]

21. If Bibi wins big, then Israel should be blockaded and besieged to teach them a lesson.

Turnabout being fair play and all...

[oberliner]

24. He didn't

A disappointing (for him) second place finish.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

32. Is that clear yet?

Perhaps it will be better for the US to deal with the one who flips the bird in public, rather than the one who smiles publicly and flips the bird in private.

[GoesTo11]

36. I fully expect that to happen

[Dick Dastardly]

37. The constant attempt by many to equate Likud and Hamas as two sides of the same coin is a

smokescreen.Its propaganda to excuse or minimize what Hamas does and or to demonize Israel to seem like they are the same as Hamas and other terror groups. It is a disingenuous comparison. Likud may be right wing and have a few real murderous nutters in it but it in no way comparable to Hamas or any of the other terror groups. I don't like Likud but you have to give Likud credit where credit is due that they actually had settlements dismantled, gave back extremely valuable land in exchange for peace with Egypt.

When was the last time Likud launched rockets/mortars at Palestinian cities? When was the last time Likud sent suicide bombers/terrorists pizza parlors, nightclubs, malls, busses, markets or any other place to attack and kill civilians? When was the last Likud promoted and glorified such attacks? When was the last time Likud murdered its political rivals? When was the last time Likud acted on its own as Hamas does? When did Likud have thousands of armed paramilitary units like Hamas does? When was the last children's show on Likud TV that promoted terror and murder?

There is no comparison between Likud and Hamas. Likud may be right wing idiots but they are a political party, not a murderous terror group like Hamas is, nor do they engage in terror like Hamas does.

[LeftishBrit]

38. I disagree with most, but not all, of this.

'When was the last time Likud launched rockets/mortars at Palestinian cities? When was the last time Likud sent suicide bombers/terrorists pizza parlors, nightclubs, malls, busses, markets or any other place to attack and kill civilians? When was the last Likud promoted and glorified such attacks?'

They haven't done any of these specific things; but they (and other parties) have supported bombing of Gaza, even when it was clear that many civilians would die.

I don't think that they, or at least large parts of the party, are much better than Hamas when it comes to hawkishness and violence toward an enemy. (This applies to many groups of course, not just Likud or Hamas.) They are in my view warmongers; and warmongers are basically terrorists with an army - and there's also the side of the equation that many who are over-impressed by all 'resistance' groups neglect: terrorists are just warmongers *without* an official army.

'When was the last time Likud murdered its political rivals?'

Now THIS is the bit where I agree. Likud are much better than Hamas with regard to their treatment of *their own people*; they do not act as dictators or execute their opponents.