Gay Politicians Keep Power in Israeli Elections

[ForestsBeatBushes]

Israelis went to the polls on Tuesday to vote for mayors and city council members across the country. Among the victors was Itai Pincas, who won a city council seat in Tel Aviv and became the second openly gay man elected to a city council in the country. The first was Saar Netanel, who won a Jerusalem city council seat on June 2. Pincas will replace Michal Eden, who five years ago became the first lesbian to be elected to a city council. Both Pincas and Netanel are members of the Meretz Party.

<cut>

http://www.advocate.com/new_news.asp?id=10347&sd=10/31/03

[La_Serpiente]

1. It is encouraging to know

that.

[Adalah]

2. This is good news.

Apparently the election overall didn't go well for the right, either. Encouraging.

[ForestsBeatBushes]

3. As in our country: Vote your Hopes, Not your Fears!

[ForestsBeatBushes]

4. Thanks to the 2 of you for acknowledging this.

Am I to presume the balance of the rest on 'the other side' of the I/P issue do not care to comment because

(1) they are anti-gay; or is it still just because,

(2) they are so anti-Israel they can't see straight


just askin'

[bluesoul]

5. You're Wrong Forests

Oh give me a break. No we're not anti-gay (or anti-Israel) far from it. I'm very much liberal and am glad to see such things happen.

[ForestsBeatBushes]

6. Thank you. I'm glad you

believe me to be wrong in this instance.

[bluesoul]

7. Well

now you know. Don't underestimate us European liberals. We stand for what we believe in! ;)

[ForestsBeatBushes]

8. Not to worry.

I never underestimate European liberals.





NEVER AGAIN.

[Darranar]

9. "Never again" adds adsolutely nothing to your argument, you know.

[bluesoul]

10. Well

I don't mind the NEVER AGAIN as far as it goes for all concerned. Palestinians could be saying the same thing for happened to them, just as much...

[Darranar]

11. The statement...

"Never Again" used to defend oppression and ethnic cleansing is disrespectful to those who died during the Holocaust and trivializes their loss. That is my main problem with it; it politicizes a tragedy.

It is rather like Bush* using September 11th as an excuse to push his radical agenda.

If Hamas was actually threatening Israel's existence, maybe I'd start worrying.

[GabysPoppy]

12. Maybe you should start worrying

The phrase "Never Again" is a reminder of the story of Masada.

Feel free to ask me for links if you need a refresher of that particular episode in Jewish history.

on edit; here is a link for you

http://mosaic.lk.net/g-masada.html

It is more than just a fine view of the Dead Sea.

[Darranar]

13. No, it's not...

And I'm very well aware of the story.

But it really has nothing to do with the current conflict.

[bluesoul]

14. Hmm

The IDF is threatening the Palestinian existence then as well. But then I guess the Palestinians don't count as much as Israelis for some...

[rini]

34. Please give me a written source

of your allegations.

[Darranar]

35. Ever heard of the wall?

And the continuation of settlement-building?

[rini]

38. That does not relate to

ethnic cleansing? BTW, what exactly do you mean by that term? I suffer from CRS, so I may ask you to repeat it from time to time.

[Darranar]

41. Ethnic cleansing:

The forced removal of some or all from an area, or actions towards that goal.

That's the way I see it.

The wall is a land-grab. it is part of an effort to ethnic cleanse the Palestinians from areas near te settlements so that "facts on the ground" will make the land Israel's.

[bluesoul]

37. Hey

You don't need a "written source" when you have facts on the ground proving you Rini...

[rini]

40. give me an example

written news accounts, TV broadcasts, etc.

[IndianaGreen]

15. Some of the pro-Israel posters are conservatives

and as such they oppose anything that is liberal, including gay rights and abortion rights.

Notice the many threads about anti-Semitism involving Arab countries, and the total silence when stories were posted about Mel Gibson's "The Passion" and the medieval anti-Semitic subtext of its script.

[Lurking Dem]

16. Would you care to list those posters?

i don't seem to know who they are.

And, as I recall, there were voluminous posts on the Mel Gibson crap much of which came from pro-Israel posters.

[IndianaGreen]

17. You can tell who they are (and you are not among them, btw)

They are the posters that support the ongoing occupation of Iraq, together with the ban on the so-called "partial birth" abortion, and also oppose full civil rights for GLBT Americans, including opposing ENDA and civil unions, and are against repeal of PATRIOT Act, and also oppose a full inquiry into the Bush regime's action prior and during 9/11. Some of them even support Zell Miller to this very day!

[drdon326]

18. Name one....

who supports all those things....

i'll make it easier for you....name one who supports even 2
of those things.

[The Magistrate]

20. It Would Not Be Easy To Do, Doctor

No such persons here are known to me.

If recollection serves, there was some discussion of the Gibson nonsense.

[drdon326]

22. I dont understand...

why IG shows up, makes unsubstantiated claims and accusations without
any proof and then heads for the hills?

Iguess anyone to the right of gus hall is a RWer.

[IndianaGreen]

23. Tom Friedman is a conservative puke

and Gus Hall is dead!

[drdon326]

24. Dont run away !!!

please answer my question.

[IndianaGreen]

26. Had you read my post, rather than twisting it for your own purposes

you would have realized that one would have to take into consideration a poster's views in other forums, such as GD and LBN, to see where he/she stands on the issues I enumerated, e.g., gay rights, abortion, Iraq war, etc.

[drdon326]

27. OHHH...I UNDERSTAND.

Now name one.

[IndianaGreen]

28. Is for you to decide!

One cannot judge this on the basis of post content in the I/P forum. Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson support everything Israel does 100-percent. Does their support for Israel mean that they are on our side? Not at all! It doesn't take a genius to realize that Democrats have nothing in common with the likes of Falwell and Robertson when it comes to the issues I listed in my post.

[drdon326]

29. WHA???

"They are the posters that support the ongoing occupation of Iraq, together with the ban on the so-called "partial birth" abortion, and also oppose full civil rights for GLBT Americans, including opposing ENDA and civil unions, and are against repeal of PATRIOT Act, and also oppose a full inquiry into the Bush regime's action prior and during 9/11. Some of them even support Zell Miller to this very day!"

Let me get you off the hook, INDIANA NON-SEQUITOR, dont respond to me.

[IndianaGreen]

30. I fear that the non sequitur is coming from you

Like I said, some of the pro-Israel posters are conservatives that oppose anything that is liberal, including gay rights and abortion rights.

[drdon326]

31. OK....I tried...

name one pro-Israel poster that are conservatives that oppose anything that is liberal, including gay rights and abortion rights.

[IndianaGreen]

33. You know is against the rules to name posters by name

but it is not against the rules to point the side of an issue that attracts certain type of ideologues: gay rights, women's rights, gays in the military, civil unions, separation of church and state, etc.

[drdon326]

39. So....

using your logic....is it ok to say there are self-hating jews
who post here who dont understand any history and should be ashamed
of themselves by turning their backs on their own people and they are no better than eichmann??...is that ok to say....INDY??

I dont think so.

[IndianaGreen]

45. Does this mean that you have nothing to say about gay rights in Israel?

Or about the amazing fact that openly gay candidates have won their elections?

[drdon326]

46. Huh??

of course i am happy.

[IndianaGreen]

47. The topic of this thread was gay politicians and the GLBT in Israel

I am trying to stay on-topic...

:shrug:

[ForestsBeatBushes]

53. And

I believe that would be

checkmate

[IndianaGreen]

55. I don't believe the good doctor is equating opposition to the Occupation

and opposition to the Likud to being a "self-hating" Jew. Such an assertion would not only be wrong by the good doctor, but it would also be a clear violation of DU's rules.

As to what the good doctor has to say in other private forums about his experiences in DU, I'll leave that for his conscience to mull over. I will only say that it saddens me to know that some fellow Jews have convinced themselves that any criticism of Israel constitutes anti-Semitism, and that the failure by many DUers to express strong and unconditional support for Israel and her policies somehow proves that liberals and leftists are against Jews.

[drdon326]

60. Then you may or may not "believe" wrong.

you said there were conservatives posting as liberals here
and you refused to give names.

I said that that is equally as wrong as someone saying the are
self-hating jews.

read it again....

edit for misreading

[IndianaGreen]

61. or someone, as the banned u****4***r, that used to lodge

the "self hating Jew" label at anyone that disagreed with her on the I/P issue.

[drdon326]

62. Sorry...

I made a general statement....the same way you did.

I directed it at no one.....same as you.

BTW, UNION says hi.

[IndianaGreen]

63. Tell her I miss her

and that she is wrong about me.

[drdon326]

64. Looks like U4E....

hit a nerve.....for better or worse.

like you told me , I'll leave that for your conscience to mull over.

[IndianaGreen]

66. It was 9/11 that made things very ugly

Suddenly, Israel and her supporters were attacked because of bin Laden's attack on the WTC, as if Osama care one iota about the Palestinians. Many liberal Jews in Du were shocked at the venom they detected, and were even more concerned when they saw themselves under attack for supporting Israel.

It was very ugly, and a lot of perceptions were set in stone that should have never been set, and a lot of Jewish liberals were hurt that should have never been hurt, and a lot of things were said or done that should have never been said or done.

I think 9/11 made our country ugly and turn us into the monster that bin Laden said we were.

Enough of that, back into character!

[drdon326]

67. Look in the mirror, Indy

make your own decisions.

theres nothing more for me to say.

eom

[IndianaGreen]

68. We should all look in the mirror

and we should all ask ourselves if supporting the Occupation, and in demanding that the US government don't play the role of honest broker in the I/P conflict, if that POV is not in fact undermining the very Jewish state that many claim they want to defend.

I know where I stand, and I am not alone:

Who We Are

Brit Tzedek v'Shalom, the Jewish Alliance for Justice and Peace, is a national organization of American Jews deeply committed to Israel's well-being through the achievement of a negotiated settlement to the long-standing Israeli-Palestinian conflict. We are guided by the mitzvah, or obligation, to pursue peace and justice that is rooted in both secular and religious Jewish traditions. We believe the vast majority of Israelis and Palestinians long for an enduring peace and that security for Israel can only be achieved through the establishment of an economically and politically viable Palestinian state, necessitating an end to Israel's occupation of land acquired during the 1967 war.

Brit Tzedek provides a platform for American Jews to articulate their belief that the on-going conflict threatens Israel's security, severely damages its economy, and erodes the values that underlie a democratic society. We believe that many American Jews share this perspective, but are reluctant to express themselves for fear they may bring harm to Israel and the Jewish people.

Through education, advocacy, local chapter activities, and work with the media, we seek to generate greater dialogue within the American Jewish community in order to direct U.S. foreign policy toward the realization of a just peace.

http://www.btvshalom.org/aboutus/

[GabysPoppy]

69. Just one question please

Is it allowable for others to not share your view and still be a Democrat and be welcome at Democratic Underground?

[ForestsBeatBushes]

70. So, it was a case of bad timing.

Now, can you use my message #53?

[Aidoneus]

52. no, Friedman is a "liberal"

one can be "liberal" and still a murderous reactionary (and a top rank idiot to boot), as he is. He provides the "liberal" argument in favour of US/western imperialism, and is rewarded with his cushy position and soap box for performing the service of an unflinching and creative power slut. Historically speaking, it's a position that also "liberals" are quite often comfortable with, in tireless (often hypocritical, but unwavering) service of certain class interests, and not merely the exclusive trade of conservatives.

[drdon326]

59. I'm sensing....

a certain negative vibe....but i cant put my finger
on it.

lol

[Violet_Crumble]

76. Yes it would be easy to do...

And I'm more than willing to name one or two conservatives if don can get an assurance from the mods that my post wouldn't be swiftly deleted. To claim that there aren't a small number of conservatives at times posting in the forum is as ludicrous as claiming there aren't the occassional anti-semites that post in the forum....

Violet...

[rini]

36. WOW!

Are you in such close contact with so many people that you can detail their political agendas? I am impressed. Are you sure you got it all? How about being Bush supporters, Ashcroft lovers, and Big MAc addicts.

[IndianaGreen]

43. Do you support full equal rights for GLBT Americans?

Yes or No? An answer would clearly elucidate where you stand on one of the wedge issues of the 2004 Presidential campaign. Barring a direct answer from you, or anyone else for that matter, the only other way to tell a poster's ideological bend is to read what they write about topics such abortion, gay rights, war, peace, globalization, etc.

Since this thread is about gay rights, in particular the status of the struggling Israel's GLBT community, I would be interested about your views on this topic, particularly in view of the threats that Israeli singing sensation Dana International, a transgendered woman, has received from ultra-religious groups.

[ForestsBeatBushes]

54. You wrote, "..., or anyone else for that matter,..." so

since I guess I qualify for 'anyone else',

I support full equal rights for GLBT Americans
I support a woman's right to choose
I do not like war
I do like peace
I do not support globalization, certainly as it is defined now; without worker or environmental rights

threats anyone may get from ultra-religious groups are a problem for the transgendered or others who do not fit into said ultra-religious groups' agenda

So what?

[IndianaGreen]

57. Therefore, and in conclusion, you could not possibly be

one of those conservative posters I was referring to.

[ForestsBeatBushes]

71. Certainly not!

but my unshakeable belief in the State of Israel must therefore cause you some cognitive dissonance.

[ForestsBeatBushes]

48. Well, I'm a liberal pro-Israel poster and

as such I am for gay rights as well as a woman's right to choose.

I haven't seen the threads about Mel Gibson's "The Passion" and am not certain what you are trying to say. Are you saying that those pro-Israel posters you consider to be conservative respond with total silence about that movie? That's just astounding.

[IndianaGreen]

50. That's exactly what I was saying, in fact...

one of those posters would respond by posting derrogatory stories about the Lubavitch whenever I posted an article about Gibson's "The Passion." That particular incident happened in The Meeting Room forum, but it was not the first time that the poster would attack the Lubavitch as racists whenever the topic Gibson's "The Passion" would come up.

[ForestsBeatBushes]

56. Are you saying

that you equate conservative pro-Israel posters with fundamentalist Judaism: the Lubavitch?

[IndianaGreen]

58. No, but that is what this particular poster was saying

rather than try to engage on the issues raised by Mel Gibson's pre-Vatican Council views on the death of Jesus, and the portrayal of those views in "The Passion," this poster preferred to post articles that attacked the Lubavitch.

[ForestsBeatBushes]

72. I see. So that poster attacked the proverbial messenger

rather than the message.

Now, where have I seen that before? Oh, I remember.

[tinnypriv]

19. LOL

Is this supposed to be a joke, or are you serious?

[The Magistrate]

21. He Seems To Be New, My Friend

Perhaps we should print up score-cards, or provide collectibles with bubble-gum....

[Lurking Dem]

25. I'm holding out

for the Ductape Fatwa Bobble Head. <smooch to DF>

[ForestsBeatBushes]

49. I am quite serious about this.

It surprised me that such good news about the Israeli elections would provide a chance for those who appear to despise the State to at least put in a good word on this thread.

Therefore, I did put the second part in about perhaps not being able to see straight because I wanted somehow to get both groups together about something.

[tinnypriv]

65. And....?

Somebody who doesn't comment on this thread subject is.... what?

Anti-Israel? Anti-Gay? Both? :eyes:

Count me out of this one.

[ForestsBeatBushes]

73. Oops...putting words in my mouth...not nice.

As I said, my aim in posting this was to bring people (the 2 basic groups on I/P) together.

I'm new.

I learned.

I won't try again.

Sorry

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

77. So, name some names...

Who are these posters you claim appear to despise Israel? You never did answer my question in LBN about what you define as hating Israel seeing as how you said there was hatred of Israel being spewed in this particular forum, even though I saw you reappeared in the thread later and conveniently missed the question...


Violet...

[ForestsBeatBushes]

78. I believe that naming names is breaking a rule here, not

to mention it has terrible associations, since the McCarthy era and all.

As to reappearing on a thread and responding to someone other than you, so what?

[Violet_Crumble]

80. Nope, there's no rule-breaking there at all...

Which you'd know if you bothered to read the rules. My suggestion to you is if you think it has terrible associations, then don't run around making claims this forum is inhabited by people who despise Israel...

Well, I was surprised you reappeared in the same thread and ignored my post asking some questions about whether you saw a difference between influence and control when it came to foreign policy and instead chose to continue on a posting path of much less substance than I would expect from someone who claims they are here to actually discuss the issue in a reasonable way...

Violet...

[Violet_Crumble]

74. It'd be very silly to presume that...

Some of us do have a life away from the comp and can't be on hand to post in every thread you seem to think we must be obligated to. I'm not a performing seal and I'll post in threads where I think I can add something to the conversation. If anyone is going to decide I'm anti-gay or anti-Israel based on what threads I do or don't post in, then they can feel free to spin their wheels to their hearts content, because I think making stupid presumptions like that would be indicative of folk who really aren't interested in engaging in any sort of constructive discussion, but in being inflammatory and posting flame-bait. Thank goodness yr not making those assumptions, eh?

Violet...

[IndianaGreen]

75. "I'm not a performing seal..." (snarf!)

That's a good one, Violet! :D

[IndianaGreen]

32. Trembling Before G-d, a documentary about gay Orthodox Jews

I saw this very powerful and sad documentary on the Sundance Channel not long ago. Here is an article about what it means to be gay and Orthodox. Has anyone else here seen this, and would you care to share your thoughts?

Gay Orthodox Jews in the Movies

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Harriette Yahr

Trembling Before G-d. Dir. Sandi Simcha Dubowski, Prod. Sandi Simcha Dubowski & Marc Smolowitz. New Yorker Films, 2001.

For five years, filmmaker Sandi Simcha DuBowski traveled with his camera to places of pain in the Orthodox Jewish world. He emerged with Trembling Before G-d, an award-winning documentary film which reveals the struggles and dilemmas of gay and lesbian Jews as they attempt to live traditional Orthodox and Hasidic lives. Structured around interviews with Jews in Brooklyn, Jerusalem, Los Angeles, London, Miami, and San Francisco, Trembling Before G-d has received numerous awards and has garnered attention in media outlets from the BBC to the New York Times. The film broke a box-office record when it premiered in New York City last October, and it opens nationally January 30th in Los Angeles, with other cities to follow.

A gay Orthodox community has been strengthening over the past seven years. Witness the revival of the "Orthodykes" and HOD, the gay Orthodox organization, in Israel. Note the formation of the "Orthodykes" and the Gay and Lesbian Yeshiva Day School Alumni Association in New York City. Orthodox Rabbi Steve Greenberg, who wrote as a closeted gay man in Tikkun under the pseudonym Rabbi Jaakov Levado in 1993, is now openly gay.

Clearly, being gay and Orthodox no longer appears to be an oxymoron on a "private club" level in a few major cities. Still there's anonymity associated with the organizations that exist. Most Orthodox gays are closeted to their communities, at worse to themselves. The real dilemma is not about joining a private club anyway. It's about how Orthodox gays and lesbians can fully express their lives within a spiritual tradition that largely denounces their sexuality, and how they can thrive publicly within their communities. DuBowski's contribution to the consciousness of this cause is unprecedented: he bears witness to testimonies of these Jews in paradox. He etches into celluloid (and history) the collective voice and individual images of their struggle. His film provides a forum for ideas and feelings to be dialoged and experienced in community. The Jews up on the screen are hurting. For the most part, they are damaged, troubled, even self-hating, and it shows. The gay Orthodox reality is now public. It's hard to dismiss.

http://www.tikkun.org/magazine/index.cfm/action/tikkun/issue/tik0201/article/020153.html

[rini]

42. I presume being gay

is hurtful and troubling to any religous person of any fundamentalist orientation.

[IndianaGreen]

44. The issue is civil rights, not theology!

Religion is a private matter. It only becomes a public matter when sectarian groups try to use the state to impose their view of morality and ethics.

On edit: spelling

[ForestsBeatBushes]

51. No. Rini was correct.

Fundamentalism of any stripe is not a pleasant thing, it seems to me. Unfortunately, both the US and Israel do have sectarian groups trying to use their respective States to impose their views, however, I believe that is much better than the penalty of death imposed on gay people in some Arab states.