"Israel 'biggest' threat to world peace"

[Aidoneus]

(a discussion about this was started upstairs, but that got to the late 30s before being locked, suggested being restarted in I/P..)

Israel 'biggest' threat to world peace
Saturday 01 November 2003

A European Commission poll has revealed that 60 per cent of Europeans believe that Israel is a greater threat to world peace than North Korea, Iran or Afghanistan.

Around 7,500 people from 15 different European countries were surveyed by the Commission.

They were presented with a list of 15 countries and asked to pick which ones represented a threat to world peace.

--snip--

The Simon Wiesenthal Centre has called for the European Union to be excluded from the quartet - US, Russia, and the UN - trying to broker a peace agreement between Israel and the Palestinians.

The centre's founder Rabbi Marvin Hier said that the findings of the survey showed that anti-Semitism is deeply embedded within European society, more than any other period since the end of the Second World War''.

--snip--

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/AEBF5DC8-F1C3-4E15-9C29-C092051D4BF6.htm

:eyes:

heading off the semi-usual shallow cliche, others to cover this:--
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1076084,00.html
http://www.gulf-daily-news.com/Articles.asp?Article=65714&Sn=WORL
http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=35383
http://www.eubusiness.com/afp/031030153736.jdyshutd
http://www.hipakistan.com/en/detail.php?newsId=en43688&F_catID=&f_type=source
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_2-11-2003_pg4_17

[auH2Olost]

1. aljazeera appears to be biased

That's my opinion.

[IndianaGreen]

2. Goldwater did lose!

I remember the bumper stickers saying AU H2O, for gold and water, unfortunately most blokes didn't know what it meant.

Al-Jazeera is more reliable than the Washington Times.

BTW, this story was reported by the BBC and Haaretz.

[auH2Olost]

4. Yep

I'm still sour. God help those that refuse to learn from the past.

[rini]

12. Please! get some serious coffee!

[Forkboy]

35. is there comedy coffee?

[Aidoneus]

5. Jeebus H. Flynt..

is that it, the same tired cliche? Any comment on the story itself, which I provided other links to?

pick one of these to comment on instead of the al-Jazeera lightning rod--
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1076084,00.html
http://www.gulf-daily-news.com/Articles.asp?Article=65714&Sn=WORL
http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=35383
http://www.eubusiness.com/afp/031030153736.jdyshutd
http://www.hipakistan.com/en/detail.php?newsId=en43688&F_catID=&f_type=source
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_2-11-2003_pg4_17

[bemildred]

6. I think it falls in the "No shit Sherlock" category.

And I think the Weaselthal Center guy makes himself look like
an ass. But I guess that makes me an anti-semite and I better
shutup. Which may be why there is little comment on it, eh?

Edit: I'll bet the thread upstairs was fun.

[Aidoneus]

8. sort of

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=194987&mesg_id=194987

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Paschall]

42. There were two other threads in GD on the same issue

One at least was pretty low key (must have been an odd hour for you folks in the US).

[Jim Sagle]

3. EU? PU!

Never again.

[Paschall]

40. Never again what?

I must say that was a succint comment! :eyes:

[Aidoneus]

7. personally, I find this undeserved

I found it surprising that the US wasn't chosen as the top pick, as being more deserving. This is giving the Israeli government more credit than it is due (though I dispute the assumed motivation), being more deserving of some lesser designation as a "regional threat" or somesuch. The SWC going off lashing out blindly here just looks silly, but maybe getting their cadres to bombard the EU with attacks will make them feel better about it.

The full results may be interesting when they are released. According to the WorldNetDaily piece at least the US edged out all of the "axis of evil" chaps. I'd break out into a festive cheer, but "We're Probably #2! We're Probably #2!" just doesn't have the same ring to it..

[Jack Rabbit]

9. I have to agree withb you, Aidoneus

I have problems with the current Israeli leadership and its policies, but the US could easily moderate Israel's behavior, even in the face of someone as intransigent as Sharon, if she had the will. Whatever might be the problem with Israel, it is only a problem insofar as the US allows it.

Meanwhile, what more do we need to say about Bush? He goes to war without a UN mandate and justifies it with lies. The war had nothing to do with fighting terrorists and everything to do with enriching Mr. Bush's cronies. There is no single force strong enough to moderate his behavior. The world is in a desperate state looking for a way to put a stop to this tyrant.

[Forkboy]

10. Well said JR

[sushi]

11. Aren't the US voters

a strong enough force to "moderate his behaviour?' After all, he's spending their money.

[Classical_Liberal]

13. Not really

both parties are pretty uniform right now. I hope the dem candidate I am for will be a surprise.

[bemildred]

24. Yes, their are a number of other worthy regional candidates, too.

I assumed it was proximity that made Israel loom large in Europe,
and the traditional view of the USA as savior, peacemaker, etc.

One would assume in China that N. Korea, the India/Pakistan
conflict, and Taiwan loom larger, and most certainly in some
other places the view of Uncle Sugar would be much more jaundiced.
In India and Pakistan, they would view each other with alarm.

[edzontar]

45. I'm with you--the US is clearly the number 1 threat....

Followed by Israel, Pakistan, and India, and then by the UK, North Korea, Syria, and Iran.

[Jack Rabbit]

48. Exclude the UK, and I'll call that a good list

There's a limit to what I think Blair would do. Britain is the one that doesn't belong in that picture.

All the other countries you have named are powers that possess nuclear or biochemical weapons and are situated in an unstable region, run by people who are at least slightly nuts or possessed of a rightwing ideology or some combination of the above.

[rini]

14. Truth

The nature of the new anti-Semitism is that everyone can now play at it — as long as it is cloaked in so-called progressive thinking, and identity politics.

Most of the rant is just that, rant. But what is fascinating is the reaction to this garbage. The new anti-semitism uses terms like war mongering, dangerous,profiteering, cabals, and "the Jews/Zionists/Israelis (interchangeable terms)."In other words it's all the fault of the Israelis/interchangeable with Zionist/Jews. Either under the thumb of the US or directing US policy. Take your choice.

Those who should search for objective truth,usually don't. To write a reasoned balanced account of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict does not sell and calls out the lunatic fringe en masse.

These "journalists" encourage (through their cowardness) the EU to openly favor the dismantling of Israel as we know it by the merging of this uniquely democratic and liberal state with West Bank neighbors who have a horrific record of human-rights abuses, autocracy, and mass murder. Of course per usual they (EU) are practicing CYA look for demographic projection of population change in Europe because of the large Arab immigration into Europe.

Plus what is the value of the only democratic government in a sea of autocracy if its existence butts up against notions of third-world victimhood and causes so much difficulty for the so called Western intelligentsia? Still, few intellectuals are silly enough to dress up that insane idea under the pretext of a serious argument (an unhinged Vidal, Chomsky, or Said does not count). They are wrong, not totally stupid.

This fashionable anti-Semitism and anti-Israelism — especially among the self-called intellectuals of the new Left — reveals a deep-seated, scary pathology that is growing geometrically both in and outside the West. For a Europe filled with unassimilated immigrants, and deeply angry about the power and presence of the United States. Denegration of these two democracies provide momentary relief on the cheap. So expect that more crazy thoughts of Israel's destruction dressed up as peace plans (Geneva) will be as common as gravestone and synagogue smashing.

For the Muslim world that must confront the power of the patriarch, mullah, tribe, and autocrat if it is ever to share the freedom and prosperity of the rest of the world, the Israeli/Jews offer a much easier target. So expect even more raving madness as the misery of Islamic society grows and its state-run media hunker down amid widespread unrest. Anticipate, also, more sick posters at C-SPAN broadcast marches, more slips by reasonable writers, and more anti-Israeli denunciations from the "new-liberals."

Do not look for the Islamic community (or almost anyone else) to acknowledge that the United States, in little over a decade, freed Kuwait, saved most of the Bosnians and Kosovars, tried to feed Somalis, urged the Russians not to kill Chechnyans, belatedly ensured that no longer were Shiites and Kurds to be slaughtered in Iraq, spoke out against Kuwait's ethnic cleansing of a third of a million Palestinians. That is about as likely as the idea that Western Europeans will acknowledge their past salvation from Nazism and Soviet Communism, or be grateful for the role the United States plays to promote democracy in Panama, Haiti, the Balkans, or the Middle East.

It is so much easier to just blame Israel.


in part from

[e-mail]

[bluesoul]

15. Oh my

What rightwing BS did you quote this from?

[rini]

16. can you

refute it?

[tinnypriv]

27. It's Dore Gold's outfit (nt)

[Jim Sagle]

28. Nice outfit!

[ForestsBeatBushes]

36. Yes. Dore Gold is a snappy dresser!

[Paschall]

38. For those who don't know Dore Gold is...

...you can get a look at him--or rather listen to his remarkable NewSpeak--in John Pilger's documentary on Palestine. I've posted a link here.

[Darranar]

17. Oh, brilliant!

The nature of the new anti-Semitism is that everyone can now play at it — as long as it is cloaked in so-called progressive thinking, and identity politics.

That doesn't even warrant a response, sorry.

Most of the rant is just that, rant. But what is fascinating is the reaction to this garbage. The new anti-semitism uses terms like war mongering, dangerous,profiteering, cabals, and "the Jews/Zionists/Israelis (interchangeable terms)."In other words it's all the fault of the Israelis/interchangeable with Zionist/Jews. Either under the thumb of the US or directing US policy. Take your choice.

Uh... who exactly does this? Not me, nor any other poster on this board, nor Chomsky, nor any of the other leftists I know.

Those who should search for objective truth,usually don't. To write a reasoned balanced account of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict does not sell and calls out the lunatic fringe en masse.

I assume a balanced account is: Sharon = good, Palestinians = bad?

These "journalists" encourage (through their cowardness) the EU to openly favor the dismantling of Israel as we know it by the merging of this uniquely democratic and liberal state with West Bank neighbors who have a horrific record of human-rights abuses, autocracy, and mass murder. Of course per usual they (EU) are practicing CYA look for demographic projection of population change in Europe because of the large Arab immigration into Europe.

Human rights abuses and mass murder... Well, there's Sabra and Shatila, the bombardment of Beirut, the current actions in the west Bank and Gaza... Israel is all innocent, right?

Plus what is the value of the only democratic government in a sea of autocracy if its existence butts up against notions of third-world victimhood and causes so much difficulty for the so called Western intelligentsia? Still, few intellectuals are silly enough to dress up that insane idea under the pretext of a serious argument (an unhinged Vidal, Chomsky, or Said does not count). They are wrong, not totally stupid

LOL... please end the "Arab culture is evil" line.

This fashionable anti-Semitism and anti-Israelism — especially among the self-called intellectuals of the new Left — reveals a deep-seated, scary pathology that is growing geometrically both in and outside the West. For a Europe filled with unassimilated immigrants, and deeply angry about the power and presence of the United States. Denegration of these two democracies provide momentary relief on the cheap. So expect that more crazy thoughts of Israel's destruction dressed up as peace plans (Geneva) will be as common as gravestone and synagogue smashing.

How does Geneva mean the destruction of Israel?

For the Muslim world that must confront the power of the patriarch, mullah, tribe, and autocrat if it is ever to share the freedom and prosperity of the rest of the world, the Israeli/Jews offer a much easier target. So expect even more raving madness as the misery of Islamic society grows and its state-run media hunker down amid widespread unrest. Anticipate, also, more sick posters at C-SPAN broadcast marches, more slips by reasonable writers, and more anti-Israeli denunciations from the "new-liberals."

Again with the "Arab culture is evil" line...

Do not look for the Islamic community (or almost anyone else) to acknowledge that the United States, in little over a decade, freed Kuwait, saved most of the Bosnians and Kosovars, tried to feed Somalis, urged the Russians not to kill Chechnyans, belatedly ensured that no longer were Shiites and Kurds to be slaughtered in Iraq, spoke out against Kuwait's ethnic cleansing of a third of a million Palestinians. That is about as likely as the idea that Western Europeans will acknowledge their past salvation from Nazism and Soviet Communism, or be grateful for the role the United States plays to promote democracy in Panama, Haiti, the Balkans, or the Middle East.

Freed Kuwait? The Kuwaitis are freed? Since when? Oh, yah, their oil is freed, now under the control of the US government's puppets.

As for Bosnia and Kosovo, that's a single good thing the US has done - with the help of dozens of other nations.

It's funny the way the US supplies Saddam with WMD and arnaments for years, supports him as he gasses the Kurds, and then comes out of the blue to condemn him for what they enabled. Then they wage a war, kill thousands, use cluster bombs, and forment chaos, and call it a liberation.

The only "democracy" they promote is puppets that do eeverything they can to allow american corporations free reign...

And they really, really, promote democracy by supporting Saudi Arabia nd Kuwait, right?

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[drdon326]

19. You noticed that too...

I thought i was the only one.

NEVER AGAIN.

[Darranar]

20. Proof?

Of what?

[bluesoul]

21. WTF

All things? I think we are talking about Bush his lies, his policy and his illegal wars? Do you support them maybe?

[Darranar]

22. And, btw...

what I dislike about American and Israel are their policies, not their people.

I think that the majority of Israelis are good people, simply afraid. And I think the same of the majority of Americans.

[Paschall]

43. rini, you've posted this junk from JCPA twice

Once would be enough, particularly since it was written to respond to an entirely different situation.

[sushi]

25. I vaguely remember reading

(maybe I'm dreaming but I don't think so) that Israel would like to become a member of the EU. That won't be easy.

[Darranar]

26. There was a thread on it...

a long while ago.

[Aidoneus]

29. Shalom says damning EU poll on Israel is not anti-Semitic

Last Update: 02/11/2003 23:57
Shalom says damning EU poll on Israel is not anti-Semitic
By Adar Primor, Haaretz Correspondent

Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom rejected Sunday claims that a European Commission poll ranking Israel as "the greatest danger to world peace" was proof of European anti-Semitism.

Shalom said the poll, due out Monday but leaked over the weekend to the Spanish daily El Pais, reflects the over exposure of Israel in European media. "There's no comparing the amount of media exposure Israel gets in Europe compared to Iran or North Korea. The images broadcast from here have an impact, but we should not get exerted by it," he told Haaretz.

Shalom said a poll published a month ago in Europe showed a significant improvement in Israel's image in recent months. "But who cares about such polls? Even though the previous poll might even be more accurate than the current one, it ended up on the back pages of the papers. They prefer to give big headlines when the news about Israel is negative."

Shalom links the latest poll results to Europe's efforts - and particularly France's - to position itself as a counterweight to the U.S. "This isn't necessarily a matter of anti-Israel or pro-Palestinian; it's a much broader issue of expressing views different from the U.S., to establish itself as a power."

Shalom was asked about the Wiesenthal Center's call to throw the European Union out of the Quartet and deny it any role in Middle Eastern negotiations. "I don't want to clash with this or that institute, but I don't see things the extreme way they do," he said. "One need not dramatize every poll and there's no need for bile."

--snip--

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/356366.html

[durutti]

30. Israel is Not the Biggest Threat

The United States is.

[Darranar]

31. Hey! Now you're being "anti-American!"

You crazy "new leftist" who isn't afraid to state the truth!

[The Magistrate]

32. In A Small Way, My Friend

Your little exchange with Mr. Durruti above illustrates the scape-goating some here complain of in this regard. Clearly, as the most powerful military entity on the planet, the U.S. presents a far greater potential for danger, and yet it is the comparatively tiny state that gets the nod here as "most dangerous".

[Darranar]

33. I'm not exactly sure of what you mean....

I agree with you and durutti that Israel is most certainly not the greatest threat to peace in the world. I don't think that many DUers agree with those who believe it is.

[Violet_Crumble]

34. Was the US even given as an option in this poll?

Because in every other poll I've seen like this, it's always the US that comes in at the #1 spot, and for very good reason....

Personally, I think there's a lot of pointless noise over a poll of only 500 people..


Violet...

[Paschall]

41. There were 7515 people polled

With nods to new DU member HaThorAtor, here's a direct link to the poll, that is the results that have been released, which does not include this controversial finding about Israel.

http://europa.eu.int/comm/external_relations/iraq/doc/flashiraq_1024en.pdf

[Paschall]

37. Yes, sir, but you are forgetting...

...that "comparatively tiny state" is the world's fourth largest arms exporter.

And the citizens of the EU who responded to this poll live within a simple hop-skip-and-jump from the Middle East. The fate of the northern Mediterranean and the Mideast, while not technically part of Europe, has been bound by geography to Europe for millennia.

Why has it escaped America's notice, for example, that if Iraq had been a threat, those of us living in Europe--within REAL firing range of potential WMDs--might have been most concerned?

[bluesoul]

39. Very true

Excellent point Paschall! As a European I can only agree with your thoughts...

[The Magistrate]

44. The United States Is Certainly First In That Regard, Sir

My guess would be Russia second, and it would surprise me to the point of questioning the figures if French exports in that line did not outpace Israeli. Again, the expressed concern, if accurately reported, bulks somewhat larger than the real scale.

Very often, persons displace anxieties onto the trivial, as a means to avoid coming to grips with difficulties it is feared are intractable. There seems to be a lot of this in the world today.

[edzontar]

46. Gee I almost forgot about Russia!!!!

Thanks for the reminder.

[tinnypriv]

51. I think China is second

Israel is not very high if I recall. Something like 15-20th in the world. France, UK, etc are way ahead (not surprisingly, easy cash to be made from spreading death around the planet)

Israel does have the highest military spending of GDP of any industrial democracy though.

[pschoeb]

47. Problems with this poll, it is very poorly concieved

I'm sorry if this is repeating because I didn't have time to read all posts.

In this poll you could only choose from 15 countries, also you could choose as many from the 15 as you wanted.

The question was not if the countries were the biggest threat, merely that they were a threat. here is the question "INSERT COUNTRY does not present a threat to world peace". So it wasn't ranked as how big a threat, just as a threat. Since you could select as many of the 15 as you wanted, you might choose Israel among several other, but really think Israel is less of a threat(but still a threat) to peace than say Iran. So the results really could be summed up as 59% percieve Israel as some kind of threat to world peace.

Also listed as pretty high threats, were Afghanistan and Iraq, it's obvious these countries are not thought to be big threats in themselves, but their situations are considered threats to peace. This is probably the same for Israel. It goes without saying that as long as the I/P conflict continues on it's violent course that there is no world peace, so who is suprised?

Also the poll was biased towards smaller EU countries as each country got 500 responses, instead of basing it on population. One of the highest ranking in seeing Israel as a threat was Luxembourg, Austria, and the Netherlands, considering they were each given an equal 500 votes to say Italy or France(the combined populations of the first three doesn't even equal the population of Italy or France seperatly), certainly scewed the results.

This original story was a leaked poll result, and no one had seen all the data yet, as this was an unpublished EU commision poll. It supposed to be published today(monday).

Here is a link to what I think is the full report
http://europa.eu.int/comm/public_opinion/flash/fl151_iraq_full_report.pdf

Patrick Schoeb

[pschoeb]

49. Another point on this poll as regards the US

An interesting thing on this poll is the results on the US. Many have mentionaed that they thought the EU would/should rank the US a greater threat.

In a way they did, if you notice two of the 15 countries listed are countries occupied by US, Afghanistan and Iraq, they also ranked very high on percentage chosen as a threat. It's quite conceivable that people voted for these two choices instead of the US directly, depending where they felt the main problem was.

The poll results don't tell us all we would like to know(like what percantage who voted for US also voted for Iraq or Afghanistan), but we can make and educated guess by looking at Greece, who voted 88% that the US was a threat, but voted 27% that Iraq was a threat and 23% that Afghanistan was a threat. It seems clear, that if they chose the US, then they didn't choose either of the US occupied countries, and probably vice versa. If Iraq and Afghansiatan had not been listed I would assume that the US would have scored a much higher percentage, because they wouldn't be able to make a distinction.

The same could be true with Israel, since there was no choice to vote on West Bank and Gaza, anyone who thought the I/P situation important could only vote for Israel.

Patrick Schoeb

[pschoeb]

50. Additional Info

Sorry for all the posts, but I think it is importnat to fully understand a poll before making any kind of determination, as there are so many bad polls.

I was wrong about small countries skewing the total results, as they were adjusted for population when calcualting the total. I still feel that larger countries need a larger number of respondants to get a similarly accuarte poll for a small country.

Another very important point, is that depsite asking for an answer that connoted degrees of threat, the result are given as yes or no only.

The allowed responses for the survey question were

Yes, absolutely
Yes, rather
No, rather not
No, absolutely
No Response/Don't know

We only see the results of Yes or No, without the shades of Yes or No.

Patrick Schoeb