Hamas battle with Islamic radicals kills 5 in Gaza

[Scurrilous]

<snip>

"Islamic radicals from an al-Qaida-inspired group battled Hamas security in the Gaza Strip Friday in a shootout that killed five people.

The fighting began when Hamas forces surrounded a mosque in the southern Gaza town of Rafah where about 100 members of Jund Ansar Allah, or the Soldiers of the Companions of God, were holed up, including some armed with suicide belts, according to residents of the area.

The confrontation was triggered when the leader of the group defied Gaza's Hamas rulers by declaring in a Friday prayer sermon that the territory was an Islamic emirate.

Jund Ansar Allah and a number of other small, shadowy radical groups seek to enforce an even stricter version of Islamic law in Gaza and have criticized Hamas for not doing so. They are also upset that the Hamas regime has honored a cease-fire with Israel for the past seven months.

Hamas has said it seeks to set an example and does not impose its views on others. It also says its violent struggle is against Israel, not the Western world."

more

[oberliner]

1. Haniyah recently said these Islamic radicals did not exist and were made up by "Zionists"

Ismail Haniyeh, who heads Gaza's Hamas government, denied in his Friday sermon that there were any non-Palestinian gunmen in the territory, as alleged by Israel which charges that veterans of wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have taken up residence.

"Such groups do not exist on the soil of the Gaza Strip ... there are no fighters in Gaza except Gazan fighters," he said. Such "Zionist propaganda" from Israel was simply an attempt to turn the world against Hamas, he said.

http://in.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idINIndia-41767720090814?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=11584

[Lakrosse]

3. just like the Holocaust never happened

right, Hamas....honestly, Hamas, an Islamic radical terrorist group and this new one should be best of allies. Hamas is just too scared to hurt its public image, should George Galloway come under more fire from already being an avowed Hamas supporter, not to mention Galloway is sad the USSR fell, because it "battled 'imperialism.'"

[LeftishBrit]

9. Galloway is totally irrelevant. In several senses.

First of all, he's irrelevant to a battle between two Palestinian groups, which does *not* involve British politics in any way. Secondly, he is irrelevant within British politics. I'm amazed at the way many Americans seem to actually think that he *matters*.

Getting back on topic, just because two groups are unpleasant doesn't mean they should be allies. Often they're rivals.

And this loonytunes group is *worse* than Hamas.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

20. What do you think about their crushing this splinter group? Care to comment on the OP? nt

[oberliner]

23. Always sad when children are killed

How is it that this "splinter group" came into the possession of so many firearms and explosive devices?

Perhaps it could be because Hamas abetted groups such as these as long as their focus was simply on trying to kill Israeli civilians.

Hamas needs to stop devoting themselves to weapons smuggling and the fiery rhetoric of violence otherwise they will continue to engage in these internal clashes that leave little girls dead in the street.

[Violet_Crumble]

24. Yes, always sad...

I found yr question and yr own answer on the next line to be a bit strange, though. There's a multitude of possibilities as to how they came into the possession of so many firearms, but you only list one possibility and then go on to act as though that is the reason. Shouldn't you apply the benefit of the doubt filter to Hamas the same way you do when it comes to Nutty?

[oberliner]

25. Kindly provide another of the multitude of possibilities

I am not sure how any group could acquire arms in Gaza without help from Hamas. Isn't Hamas in charge of the smuggling tunnels? Aren't those tunnels the only way to get weapons into Gaza?

I would be curious to hear of other scenarios that you could envision.

[Violet_Crumble]

26. Explain how the only way people could get weapons is via Hamas...

I wasn't aware of that. Could you provide some evidence that is the case?

[oberliner]

27. How else can weapons reach Gaza?

Are you saying that people can get weapons into Gaza without Hamas knowing about it? Don't they regulate and patrol the tunnels?

[Violet_Crumble]

28. I'm waiting for you to explain to me how it works...

Along with links I can read about it. If all yr going to do is keep on ignoring it and come back with questions asking me to explain it to you, then I figure there's no point continuing along in this vein...

[oberliner]

29. From AFP: Hamas police patrol the tunnels, forbidding the import of drugs and weapons

Hamas police patrol the tunnels, forbidding the import of drugs and weapons and collecting an annual tax of 2,500 dollars (2,000 euros) per tunnel, according to tunnel owners.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5g0eKT3rXKk6GERwkLAnrTUQc2QgQ

[Violet_Crumble]

30. So yr saying all weapons in Gaza are no older than two years old?

I hope not, coz that wouldn't make any sense. In fact, yr argument makes little sense at all. Hell, if people can get firearms into this country without my govt knowing about it, why wouldn't people be able to get firearms into Gaza without Hamas knowing about it? And that's assuming that all weapons involved weren't already in the possession of those folks prior to mid 2007 when Hamas took power in Gaza....

[oberliner]

31. This is interesting

The source is JPost so consider accordingly:

Jund Ansar Allah group was armed by Fatah operatives, Hamas claims

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1249418612530&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

My argument was that they perhaps got their weapons via Hamas. Hamas is claiming that they were armed by Fatah. You had indicated a "multitude of possibilities" but for some reason do not wish to share what any of them might be.

Again, I would be curious to know what you think are some of the likely scenarios. Clearly you know far more about this topic than I do so please present your thoughts if you would be so kind.

[Violet_Crumble]

32. No, yr argument wasn't merely 'perhaps'...

You argued it as a definate in the following line to yr 'perhaps'. And it's not that I don't wish to, I've actually just given you one, and you've just posted a link to another one, but for some reason they're not registering with you....

No, no. Clearly yr the one who knows far, far more on this topic than I'd ever hope to on this issue! So, don't be shy and kindly explain why it is that you think there are no other possibilities other than the one you put out there. And also, could you answer the question I asked you in the previous post? You can't miss it - it's the subject line of the post. Actually, I just reread the post of mine you'd just replied to and you failed to answer any of the questions I asked you. Seriously, if you can't be bothered replying to any of my questions, then what point is there in you replying at all?

[oberliner]

34. I believe I used the word "perhaps"

The line that followed was a general admonition to Hamas to stop smuggling in weapons and stop their fiery violent rhetoric. If they have stopped smuggling in weapons or, in fact, never actually did in the first place, then I think that is good news and I would happy to be mistaken.

I just was asking for you, since you indicated that their were multitudes of ways, to just list a couple which you seemed hesitant to do. As you mentioned, there have been three possibilities presented and two have come from me.

Again, I direct you to the "perhaps" as I reiterate that I do not think it is the only way that this group could have gotten their weapons. Based on the degree of control which Hamas (and Israel) have in terms of weapons coming into Gaza, my thought was the one I articulated. I am very open to the presentation of other possibilities.

I really do not understand what appears to be sarcasm in your last paragraph. I truly do not think that I have nearly as much information and knowledge on this subject as you do and I would very much like to encourage you to share whatever information you can. I don't know the answer to the question about how weapons historically have gotten into Gaza.

[shaayecanaan]

36. The answer would seem to lie in the second exchange below...

where someone posted an article stating that jihadist groups were infiltrating the strip. If that is the case, then I suppose they could bring their weapons with them.

[Violet_Crumble]

37. I believe I made it clear I didn't dispute that...

But the line following that was treating it as a definate, not a maybe, and yr insistance throughout that you aren't aware of any possibilities (something I find hard to believe for an intelligent person such as yrself) tends to cement that you view it as a definate, not a maybe. If you honestly believe there were other ways they could get weapons, why waste my time asking me to tell you what you must have already known? There's nothing hesitant in not wanting to play some stupid mindgame that you want to play, Oberliner...

There was no more sarcasm in my last paragraph than there has been in what I was replying to from you. If there was no sarcasm in yrs, then there's none in mine, though you might have to help me out a bit here. Can you point me to all this wealth of information that I supposedly have that I should be sharing? I seem to have mislaid it!

[oberliner]

39. There are no "mindgames" being played and no sarcasm intended from this end!

You have been posting here since before I joined DU. As I believed you mentioned on another thread, you've been posting to this forum since before it was even called the I/P forum. You certainly have given me the impression that you are very well informed on matters related to the conflict. You have corrected misinformation that has been posted by others on this site numerous times. I daresay that some might call you one of if not the most respected posters on this forum. It is with all of this in mind that I ask you to share what you know which might help to shed some light on what is currently going on.

My assumption about a relationship between this group getting weapons and Hamas was clearly not based on a complete amount of information. I ignorantly assumed that since Hamas appeared to be in control of Gaza then anyone trying to get weapons into the country would have to do so with their blessings. I don't really know what the other ways are that they could get weapons. Until I came across the JPost article about their possibly being armed by Fatah that thought had not occurred to me. You are free to chastise me for my ignorance if you'd like, but my preference would be for you to share your theories as to how you think this group might have acquired its weapons and what the implications would be of the various possibilities for Gaza and the region at large.

Thank you for taking the time to engage with me on this topic, and I apologize if anything I wrote came across anything less than completely respectful.

[Violet_Crumble]

40. I'd actually take it as being sincere if this was the first time you've done that...

...but it's not and you already knew that I was annoyed the last time you pulled that out. Why do it all over again if you already knew it was annoying? And don't worry. That's a rhetorical question this time round. Take the passive-aggressive routine somewhere else, because as I've already told you, I have to put up with enough of that at work without having to put up with it here. I don't want smarmy crap, I want to be able to have a direct discussion that doesn't end up going round in pointless circles as you demand I tell you things which you already know.

[oberliner]

41. I am totally lost and confused by your response

But I do not wish to inadvertently irritate you further.

Can I simply ask you this direct question:

How do you believe this group acquired the weapons and explosives they used in this incident?

[Violet_Crumble]

42. Clearly you do wish to irritate me further, otherwise you wouldn't still be going...

But here's a direct answer: I have no idea.

[oberliner]

43. Thank you for your direct answer

Hopefully more information about this group will be forthcoming (in the news).

In any event, none of these developments are going to be good for the Palestinians in my opinion.

And my heart does go out for the child who was apparently caught in the crossfire.

Too many children have died and continue to die as a result of this ongoing conflict.

[oberliner]

44. Curious to get your thoughts on the OP - Three children have now been identified as killed

What do you think about the crushing of this splinter group in light of the fact that in doing so, three Palestinian children were killed?

[oberliner]

45. Kick for ProgressiveMuslim - still looking for your thoughts on the OP - nt

[bemildred]

2. Hamas fight with Islamic radicals kills 13 in Gaza

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip — Islamic radicals from an al-Qaida-inspired group battled Hamas security in the Gaza Strip Friday in shootouts that killed at least 13 people.

---

The hard-line groups are perhaps the most serious opposition Hamas has faced since it seized control of Gaza and ousted its rivals in the Fatah movement in a five-day, bloody civil war in June 2007.

---

The group's leader had already fled the mosque, and Hamas forces surrounded his house later and waged another gunbattle with his men.

A large explosion was heard from Moussa's home late Friday, witnesses and security officials reported. It was unclear whether the explosion was set off by Hamas forces or militants with explosives holed up inside. Hamas has closed off the area and ambulances have been unable to access the scene of the fighting.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iF7VXxly1D0UCmri0Vff7qNZJspwD9A2S8JG5

[Scurrilous]

4. Hamas: Leader of al-Qaeda-inspired group committed suicide

Strip's interior ministry says Abdel-Latif Moussa, leader of group seeking to enforce stricter version of Islamic law, blew himself up in a shootout with Hamas that killed 24 people, injured 150 in Rafah

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3762066,00.html

<snip>

"Hamas' interior ministry has announced that the leader of an al-Qaeda-inspired group in the Gaza Strip blew himself up during a shootout Saturday with Hamas security forces.

The fighting erupted Friday when Hamas forces surrounded a mosque in the southern Gaza town of Rafah on the Egypt border where about 100 members of Jund Ansar Allah, or the Soldiers of the Companions of God, were holed up.

The head of the radical Islamic group, Abdel-Latif Moussa, detonated an explosives vest he was wearing when fighting resumed after dawn Saturday, said Ihab Ghussein, a Hamas interior ministry spokesman.

"The so-called Moussa has committed suicide ... killing a mediator who had been sent to him to persuade him and his followers to hand themselves over to the government," Ghussein said. He said the fighting ended later in the morning.

Hamas also confirmed the death in the fighting of one of its high-level commanders, Abu Jibril Shimali, whom Israel said orchestrated the capture of Sergeant Gilad Shalit.

Dr. Moaiya Hassanain of the Palestinian Health Ministry in Gaza said a total of 24 people, including six Hamas police officers and an 11-year-old girl, were killed and 150 were wounded.

The confrontation was triggered when the leader of the group defied Gaza's Hamas rulers by declaring in a Friday prayer sermon that the territory was an Islamic emirate.

Jund Ansar Allah and a number of other small, shadowy radical groups seek to enforce an even stricter version of Islamic law in Gaza than that advocated by Hamas.

These groups are also upset that the Hamas regime has honored a cease-fire with Israel for the past seven months.

Hamas says it does not impose its religious views on others, but only seeks to set a pious example for people to follow, while these splinter call for a more forceful imposition of Islamic law.

The groups also call for a wider global jihad against the entire Western world while Hamas maintains the struggle is only against the Israeli occupation."

[oberliner]

5. Is Haniyeh sticking to his claim that this group does not exist and is just Zionist propaganda?

Just two days ago he said:

"There are no fighters in Gaza except Gazan fighters"

Has he acknowledged yet that he was lying or mistaken?

[azurnoir]

6. From Friday

Hamas wraps up operation against radical Gaza group

Gaza – Ma'an – Battles continued between Jund Ansr Allah and de facto Hamas police in the Gaza border city of Rafah on Friday as police tried to retake a mosque the ultra-radical group had locked down and declared an "Islamic emirate" earlier in the day.

Fifteen Palestinians were confirmed dead following the operation by Hamas' militant wing, the Al-Qassam Brigades, according to local medical sources quoted by Ma'an's Gaza City correspondent early on Saturday morning.

At least one of those killed was a high-ranking member of the Hamas wing, a Palestinian security source said. Other reports claimed a young girl was killed during the battle, which Ma'an could not immediately confirm.

Medics added that about 120 Palestinians, including civilians, were injured, many critically.

Meanwhile, de facto security forces detonated explosives at a house that belonged to the leader of the group on Friday night, according to witnesses. There were no immediate reports of casualties in that report.

But sources said the home belonged to Sheikh Abdel-Latif Abu Moussa, leader of Jund Ansar Allah ("Warriors of God"), a radical armed group thought to be ideologically aligned with Al-Qaeda, although not officially.

The Gaza-based de facto Interior Ministry issued a statement late Friday night, calling Jund Ansar Allah "mentally ill." It said officials had seized weapons from the group and would prosecute its members.

Clashes were first reported between the organization and de facto security services soon after supporters of Jund Ansar Allah barricaded themselves inside a mosque, a move seen as a display of defiance toward the comparatively nationalistic Hamas movement, which has controlled the Strip since 2007.

Earlier on Friday, hundreds of the group's supporters rallied in Rafah, declaring Gaza an "Islamic emirate."

Jund Ansar Allah leader Sheikh Abdel-Latif Abu Moussa announced the start of theocratic rule across Palestine, beginning in Rafah. Abu Moussa vowed that his organization would soon begin implementing Islamic law, a proposal counter to Hamas' efforts, with recent exceptions, to maintain the secular Palestinian legal code.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=219044

it is odd I have been following this story and had not read any such statement from Hanyyeh prior to your post

[oberliner]

7. If my post is the first time you've read any such statement from Haniyeh

you obviously haven't been following the story very closely.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/15/hamas-battle-gaza-islamists-al-qaida

The disclosure that a Syrian national was among the dead contradicts earlier claims by Ismail Haniya, who heads Gaza's Hamas government, that there were no non-Palestinian fighters in Gaza.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a6MvijtQo1Nk

Before the clashes broke out yesterday, Hamas leader Ismael Haniya denied Israeli reports that radical Islamic militant groups were setting up operations in Gaza.

“No foreign fanatic organizations that act against the Americans are in the Gaza Strip,” Haniya told worshippers during prayers at a mosque in northern Gaza. He said Israel was spreading rumors to isolate the Hamas-controlled strip.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8202746.stm

During his own Friday sermon, the leader of Hamas in Gaza, Ismail Haniya, dismissed Mr Moussa's comments.

"These declarations are aimed towards incitement against the Gaza Strip and an attempt at recruiting an international alliance against the Gaza Strip.

"And we warn those who are behind these Israeli Zionist declarations: the Gaza Strip only contains its people."

[azurnoir]

15. both statements are a bit different than your original n/t

[oberliner]

18. Here is the quote I cited printed verbatim on Al Jazeera's site

"Such groups do not exist on the soil of the Gaza Strip ... there are no fighters in Gaza except Gazan fighters," he said.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/08/200981422158703726.html

[ProgressiveMuslim]

21. Why are you so obsessed with this? Concerned that Hamas crushing AQ-look-alikes makes them look

good?

[oberliner]

22. You support violently crushing groups such as this one?

Even if it means that innocent civilians, apparently including several children, have to die in the process?

[Violet_Crumble]

33. Only if it's Israel doing the crushing! n/t

;)

[oberliner]

35. That statement surprises me

Are you now suggesting that you supported the Israeli invasion of Gaza?

[Violet_Crumble]

38. No nt/

[Scurrilous]

10. There was a article in Haaretz last week...

...(quoting Israeli defense officials) claiming militants who had fought against the US in Iraq were flocking to Gaza and setting up camp.

You didn't see it?? Shame!!1!


Hamas responded:

<snip>

"The Hamas-controlled de facto government has denied an Israeli news report that foreign fighters have entered the Gaza Strip and set up organizations.

A spokesperson for the de facto government’s Interior Ministry Ehab Al-Ghussein said that all the armed groups in the Gaza Strip are Palestinian organizations whose goal is to resist Israeli occupation, and nothing beyond that.

Al-Ghussein’s comments were in response to a report published earlier this week on the website of the Israeli newspaper Haaretz. The report claimed that dozens of “Islamic terrorists” have entered the Gaza Strip over the past year and are operating there “in the framework of extremist organizations identified with the ‘worldwide Jihad.’"

The Haaretz report quoted Israeli military officials who stated that men who had fought US troops in Iraq had managed to enter Gaza.

However, Al-Ghussein said there are “individual cases” of foreign elements or people linked to foreign organizations, which Hamas security is monitoring. He said these individuals do not represent any threat to Palestinian security."

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=218506


Oh noes, look:

"The Hamas-run Interior Ministry says a Syrian national of Palestinian origin, Khaled Banat, known as Abu Abdullah al-Muhajir, was among fighters killed in the clashes at Rafah."

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsMaps/idUSTRE57E11A20090815


I guess the Israeli defense officials were right and Hamas were liars!!1!:)

[oberliner]

11. What is with the intentional spelling errors and exclamation points?

I was referencing the Haniyeh speech at a mosque on Friday where he claimed the fighters (who have apparently just been killed) did not exist and were just Zionist propaganda.

This contradiction was reported on everywhere from the AP to the BBC (Edit to add: And Ma'an News - see link below).

I would think it would be worth noting that Haniyeh was either deliberately lying or was completely misinformed.

Either way, it does not speak well to his leadership.

Edit to add:

His remarks were also reported on in Ma'an News:

Haniyeh also warned against recent Israeli moves to bring the international arena against the Gaza Strip, citing reports in the Israeli media that said militants and extremists from other nations were infiltrating into the area. “There are no such groups in Gaza”

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=219008&MARK=haniyeh

[azurnoir]

19. Well you know how folks

such as myself tend to be;-)

[oberliner]

12. From Ma'an News: “There are no such groups in Gaza” - Haniyeh

Haniyeh also warned against recent Israeli moves to bring the international arena against the Gaza Strip, citing reports in the Israeli media that said militants and extremists from other nations were infiltrating into the area. “There are no such groups in Gaza”

Gaza is already crowded with its own people, we don’t need any other bodies, he joked.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=219008&MARK=haniyeh

He was even able to make jokes about the ridiculous idea that apparently turned out not to be so ridiculous.

[azurnoir]

13. perhaps you shouldthis is recheck your link

this is what I got

Haniyeh: Fatah conference a warning on impossiblity of elections

Those who accused him of blackmail or intentional corruption of the Sixth Fatah Congress in Bethlehem were mistaken, and noted “We allowed to all members of the Fatah conference to participate in voting without interference.”

Banning Fatah members in Gaza from attending their Bethlehem conference had nothing to do with the success or failure of the event, he added, but rather was a moral position in support of the Hamas affiliates in West Bank prisons.

He said the recent events in the West Bank highlighted the need for a real unity dialogue between all parties, but we should be on guard so other parties do not use dialogue as a means to bring back the pre-2006 elections status quo.

Haniyeh also warned of the current Israeli sentiment, saying current prospects for peace are just a “The poisonous peace promoted by the Americans and Israelis along with some Arabs and Palestinians,” he called the proposal a “way of death and destruction.”

The Gazan leader said his government will never accept the “semi-state” that Israel is proposing, saying it would be violating the work Palestinians have done to restore their right. Palestinians were the “first who called for peace and stability that would enable them to gain their rights restoring their land,” he noted.

Haniyeh also warned against recent Israeli moves to bring the international arena against the Gaza Strip, citing reports in the Israeli media that said militants and extremists from other nations were infiltrating into the area. “There are no such groups in Gaza”

Gaza is already crowded with its own people, we don’t need any other bodies, he joked.

[oberliner]

14. Same link - Look at the last two paragraphs that you posted

That is the excerpt that I am referencing.

[azurnoir]

16. I did it's quite a stretch to say he's blaming it on a Zionist entity

[oberliner]

17. Ma'an chose to run an excerpt of Haniyeh's remarks

Other sources have included additional quotations.

The BBC, for instance, quoted him thusly:

"And we warn those who are behind these Israeli Zionist declarations: the Gaza Strip only contains its people."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8202553.stm

[bemildred]

8. Hamas, Fatah trade accusations over Gaza clashes

GAZA/RAMALLAH, Aug. 15 (Xinhua) -- Islamic Hamas movement and Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas's Fatah party on Saturday traded accusations over deadly clashes that claimed the lives of 22 people in the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip.

---

Hamas sent troops to Rafah city in southern Gaza Strip to arrest the Imam, whose supporters called him Abu Noor al-Maqdisi, but the move sparked fighting that ended this morning with the death of al-Maqdisi, a local commander of Hamas, six Hamas policemen and six civilians in addition to a number of the Imam's followers.

Ismail Haneya, Hamas' Prime Minister, implicitly accused Fatah, which dominates the Palestinian National Authority (PNA), of encouraging such extremist group to create disorder in the Gaza Strip.

---

Earlier, Hamas' Interior Ministry has openly accused the Fatah-backed security services of the PNA, based in the West Bank, of sponsoring those rebels in a bid to restore their control of Gaza.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-08/15/content_11888538.htm