rini
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Thu Nov-06-03 07:39 AM
Original message |
Face-to-face with Tulkarm executioners |
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Edited on Thu Nov-06-03 07:50 AM by rini
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3238807.stm By Orla Guerin BBC correspondent in Tulkarm In the Middle East, there is concern about the growing numbers of Palestinians being hunted down and killed - not by the Israeli army but by their own friends and neighbours. Palestinian human rights workers say more than 70 suspected collaborators have died in vigilante killings over the past three years. edited by poster
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bluesoul
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Thu Nov-06-03 07:46 AM
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What do many other (western) countries do with traitors or spies that spy against their own country?
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rini
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Thu Nov-06-03 07:53 AM
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2. Trial, witnessess,life in prison rather than death etc. |
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Edited on Thu Nov-06-03 07:54 AM by rini
the accused have the right and ability to defend themselves. This is vigilante justice. There is no country of Palestine, but I presume (I may be wrong) the PA has "some" guidelines?
<spelling>
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Scurrilous
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Thu Nov-06-03 08:11 AM
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..is meted out by both sides in this conflict. Extra-judicial executions ring a bell? No? Well here's a list: http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Fatalities_Lists/Extra_Judicial_eng.asp
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bluesoul
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Thu Nov-06-03 08:17 AM
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rini
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Thu Nov-06-03 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #7 |
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please give me the names of Israelis who hunted down fellow Israelis, murdered them and did not go to trial for their crimes?
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Jack Rabbit
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Thu Nov-06-03 09:50 AM
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11. Indeed, it is vigilante justice |
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How does this make the struggle against the occupation in Palestine different from the struggle against Apartheid in South Africa, for independence in Ireland or against the Nazi occupation in France?
Examples of vigilante justice can be cited in each of these movements. Indeed, Winnie Mandela was later tried for her alleged part in the killing of some youths related to the resistance to Apartheid. These killings, whether in any way justified by the circumstances or not, were almost necessarily extra-judicial.
That doesn't excuse these acts. A fair and open trial by a jury is certainly preferable to rough justice. However, resistance movements aren't governments as much as they are military organizations. They require a high degree of discipline. As the saying went during World War II, Loose lips sink ships.
The fact that Palestinian nationalists practice a form of rough justice is not unique among movements of this nature.
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drdon326
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Thu Nov-06-03 07:53 AM
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try saying this bluesoul....
"you know...that kind of justice is pathetically prevalent amoung the palestinian terrorist murderers and their supporters and its barbaric by todays standards. This is not what civilized human beings do to one another."
does that work for you, bluesoul??
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Jim Sagle
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Thu Nov-06-03 07:57 AM
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4. Oh, my. I think you know the answer. |
ForestsBeatBushes
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Thu Nov-06-03 11:10 AM
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14. Well, if he doesn't know the answer, let me assure you I do: |
bluesoul
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Thu Nov-06-03 08:08 AM
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It is barbaric. I didn't deny that. But in many countries traitors would end the same (death penalty etc) Even in the so democratic USA getting the death penalty is no more civilized or humane...
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bluesoul
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Thu Nov-06-03 08:09 AM
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Btw, is the death penalty civilized? Thank you
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drdon326
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Thu Nov-06-03 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #6 |
8. Tough question....for me |
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my heart says yes but my head says no.
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bluesoul
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Thu Nov-06-03 08:16 AM
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9. Barbaric is barbaric no matter who does it |
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Edited on Thu Nov-06-03 08:17 AM by bluesoul
Well my heart and head says no. Singling out someone saying he commits barbaric acts while many others around the world practice them just as much only packed into "democratic" cellophane is hypocrisy. And what are extra-judicial assassins that Israel practices other then the same thing? Along with killing other innocent bystanders? Care to answer that as well? You see it's a two way street. Hardly anyone is without sins...
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rini
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Thu Nov-06-03 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #6 |
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for me. I am squarely against the death sentence. I am also squarely against vigilanty justice. In a civilized society, there is no room for this.
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Jack Rabbit
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Thu Nov-06-03 09:58 AM
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12. Sorry, Doc, it doesn't quite work for me |
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I wish it did. If Palestine were a bona fide state with a strong, stable government instead of occupied territory with a resistance movement and this were happening, we could join in screaming bloody murder. We could denounce the leaders of Palestine the same way we denounce Mugabe in Zimbabwe or, until recently, Saddam in Iraq.
However, that isn't the case. For the rest of the argument, you are referred to post number 11, above.
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ForestsBeatBushes
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Thu Nov-06-03 11:09 AM
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13. These snippets are interesting: |
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But Mohammed's family claim that he was tortured into making that confession in the 21 days that he was held.
<snip>
"They melted plastic and dropped it onto his body to burn him. Mohammed was in the al-Aqsa brigades with these other guys. Then he got promoted and they got jealous - that's why they killed him," she says.
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bemildred
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Thu Nov-06-03 01:37 PM
Response to Original message |
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Edited on Thu Nov-06-03 01:54 PM by bemildred
the growing numbers of Palestinians being hunted down and killed - not by the Israeli army but by their own friends and neighbours
If it's OK for Israelis to hunt down and kill Palestinians, surely it is OK for Palestinians to hunt down and kill Palestinians. Would it be better it they called it "liquidation"?
Let's condemn both or neither.
That said, I condemn this, I think all killing without due process is wrong.
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bluesoul
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Thu Nov-06-03 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #17 |
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Like extra-judicial assasinations of Palestinians by the IDF where scores of innocents people have died....
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ForestsBeatBushes
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Thu Nov-06-03 01:59 PM
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" "They melted plastic and dropped it onto his body to burn him. Mohammed was in the al-Aqsa brigades with these other guys. Then he got promoted and they got jealous - that's why they killed him," she says. "
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bemildred
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Thu Nov-06-03 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #19 |
20. Right, they are evil. |
The Magistrate
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Thu Nov-06-03 02:34 PM
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21. That Is the Weakness Of This Sort Of Thing, Sir |
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It is never possible to know the motive, whether there is actual collaboration, or merely a settling of grudge by someone in position to do so.
In most cases where the Israeli armed forces attempt killing a member of Hamas, et al, there is little doubt the target actually was a member, as the organization he belonged to generally confirms it in course of clamoring for vengeance.
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bemildred
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Thu Nov-06-03 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #21 |
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I have no doubt these people are unpleasant. It's an unpleasant business all around. Whether in this case they were motivated by petty or patriotic motives matters little. No doubt you may find people that will tell you either is correct. One can in any case be sure that the perps will tell you of their high-minded motives.
All societies habitually prune themselves of those they find unacceptable. One advocates the rule of law precisely because, done rightly, it offers protection from this sort of arbitrariness.
So the correct answer it to institute and enforce fairly a fair rule of law. Then one has a framework in which to judge deeds. At present there is only a growing chaos and a great deal of ad hoc use of force.
I find tedious the tendency of each side in this quarrel to tell the list of atrocities committed by the other like a set of worry beads. It has many pernicious effects, which I am sure you realize as well as I. I do not mean by this that the truth should not be known, when possible, but rather that one should avoid the associated wallowing in hate and anger. It merely makes you stupid. Pointing out the corruption of one's enemies does not make you pure.
To the extent that anyone may claim moral superiority over others, it is not a state of being but a fragile achievement that must be practiced and defended every day. Every immoral act diminishes it. Every moral act of initiative or restraint defends it. If you stoop to their methods, you become like them, and henceforth you are like them. In a word, you are what you do.
In the meantime, as you point out, it is a war, and as such it has little to do with morality or ethics, it is a test of force and will, not a tea party.
I am thinking of the scene in Butch Cassiday and the Sundance Kid where Butch is about the take over the gang. He says to the current leader as the fight is about to start: "Wait, wait, what are the rules?" The leader responds: "Rules? What rules? No rules!", and on the last word Butch kicks him in the nuts.
Well, I suppose this is my daily rant. Best Regards.
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The Magistrate
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Thu Nov-06-03 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #22 |
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Edited on Thu Nov-06-03 04:35 PM by The Magistrate
Your comments on the concept of moral superiority are particularly valuable. That cannot be a given attribute, to be brandished securely as a talisman. To my view, once a matter has descended to war, the very concept is beyond consideration. It is often the case that strategic benefit may be derived from actions that can be seen as moral, but since the motive is pragmatic acquisition of advantage, this cannot be described as moral behavior, since one of the diagnostics of that is that the motivation be to do what is right, whether it brings benefit or not. Treating prisoners decently, for example, on the sound ground that doing so will make surrender more thinkable by a foe at a disadvantage, is a very different thing than acting on the moral imperative to treat others decently.
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bemildred
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Thu Nov-06-03 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #23 |
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And yet how often is it not the case that that which is decent is also that which is wise.
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