Column One: Negotiating with terrorists

[ForestsBeatBushes]

<snip>

Hizbullah is a terrorist organization dedicated the physical liquidation of the State of Israel. Since its inception, its leadership has indoctrinated its people from the cradle to the grave that their goal in life is to make war on Israel and the Jewish people until both are no more.

Every single thing that Hizbullah does, from "educating" children in schools to become human bombs, to running its mosques, its television station, its drug running operations and its guerrilla and terrorist training camps is devoted first and foremost to bringing about the destruction of Israel and the Jewish people.

No Hizbullah leader, from Hassan Nasrallah to Obeid to their predecessors and their Iranian sponsors has ever denied that the destruction of Israel is their aim – to the contrary. And it is not just Israeli Jews that offend them. It is all Jews, everywhere. So it is that Hizbullah with its boss, Iran, committed the largest massacre of Jews since the Holocaust. It was Hizbullah, with Iran that blew up the AMIA Jewish Center in Buenos Aires is 1994 that left 86 Jews dead and the same week blew up a plane over Panama killing 22 people who it claimed were Jewish businessmen.

<snip>

Hizbullah is not only a symbol for the Palestinians. It trains Palestinian terrorists and smuggles arms to them. It has its own terror cells operating in Israeli Arab towns and in PA ruled areas. Its forces in Southern Lebanon continue to attack the Northern Israel with anti-aircraft shells, artillery and Katyusha rockets just like in the good old days. The only difference of course is that Hizbullah is now perched directly at the border and its arsenal now includes 10,000 long-range rockets that can hit Hadera and perhaps Netanya.


http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1068099912807

[guernica]

1. where are these shells falling?

How come no one knows about this and since no one is being hurt in these "attacks" why is Hizbollah wasting rockets?

[ForestsBeatBushes]

2. Try different news sources.

Obviously you are on the web; I suggest you use it.

Thanks.

[edzontar]

3. Why not just post a link to the JP every morning?

Oh, that wouldn't load the forum up enough.

[Muddleoftheroad]

6. Why not

We certainly get enough EI propaganda here.

[bluesoul]

7. Recently

there has been mostly just Jpost and a load of other rw sources posted...

[Muddleoftheroad]

9. This IS a forum

Feel free to post.

[rini]

8. I was under the impression

the admin of DU decides what sources can or can not be used?

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[drdon326]

5. Tough call

Glick posts some common sense.

I , very sadly , must agree with her.

[rini]

10. sad but true

Lord Guthrie, former Chief of Defence Staff: “How on earth can you allow your people to be attacked without trying to stop it? The only way to stop the suicide bomber is to attack the people who ... >>>

[bluesoul]

11. Well

The only way to stop a suicide bomber is to kill along many other innocent people? Is that what you're saying? Cause that certainly is the practice in the OT

[Muddleoftheroad]

12. You left out a little info

The suicide bombers hide deliberately in the general Palestinian population and no one -- not that general population and not the PA -- does anything about it.

So Israel's choices are to allow them to exist, plan, recruit, build and murder or go after them.

[bluesoul]

13. That's

your overview. Many would disagree...(especially with the policy of the IDF)

[GabysPoppy]

14. Assuming you are part of the many to disagree

How would you suggest the IDF protect against suicide bombers?

[ForestsBeatBushes]

15. Forgive me, Mr. Poppy, for

replying in Mr. Soul's place; however, he has not taken the time to respond to your good post in over an hour. One might presume he doesn't believe the IDF should protect against suicide bombers at all. In fact, from many of his other posts, one could actually presume his positon to be that the suicide bombers are a righteous group fighting for truth, justice and against the American way.

[bluesoul]

16. No need

putting words into my mouth. I never said that suicide bombers are a righteous group or have supported their attacks. I just don't believe that killing innocent Palestinian civilians, occupying foreign land or building illegal settlements is "self-defense". Frankly, you have dissapointed my Forrests, I thought I made some things clearly in our discussion. Apparently it did not help.
Life's a bitch...

[ForestsBeatBushes]

17. No, it did not help after other observations

which were quite contrary to our discussions.

It's certainly true that I do not need to put words into your mouth, however, that is not what I was doing.

Yeah, life's a bummer...(bitch would be a sexist slur)

[GabysPoppy]

18. Sir, please don't tell me what the IDF shouldn't do

I simply asked what they SHOULD do to protect Israeli citizens from suicide bombers?

BTW, that also includes Arabs who are Israeli citizens. You might recall that one of the owners of the Haifa restaurant was a person of Arabic heritage.

[Forkboy]

23. There's not much they can do to stop suicide bombers

short of instituting a police state (and even then...).They've been beating the Palestinians like a gong and the attacks are increasing.This is the nature of the attacks and the same reason the US can't stop terrorist attacks from happening here either.The option is to forego a free society OR start addressing the environment that leads to people wanting to blow themselves up.

[Lithos]

19. Not to put words into Mr. Soul's mouth

But the Intelligence forces of the IDF and Israeli Government were excellent at pinpoint assassinations. The IDF's rapid military response which is not as accurate and is responsible for a fair amount of civilian collateral is driven more by the political needs to appease the Bitkhonists which support Sharon's current government than by any other real necessities.

[rini]

20. Please tell me

what is a Bitkhonist?

I believe the blame for civilian casualties lies in the terrorist bombings and murderes of Israelis in their homes, busses, cafes, or automobiles.

On the other side blame should be assigned to the murderers who hide among civilians thus inviting casualties to inflame the situation.

It is the terrorist who are so uncaring of life, anyone's life, Israeli or Palestinian.

[bemildred]

21. Here:

http://www.israelblog.org/Articles/Moshe_comes_down_from_the_mountain.html

[Lithos]

22. Bitkhonist

Is a security firster though there seems to be a bit of a paranoia element to add in.

The blame for civilian casualties is to those who aim the weapon and cause the trigger to be pulled.

Personally, I don't blame the bombers themselves, but those who recruit them. By the time the bombers pull the trigger they are nothing more than an automaton under the control of someone else. This is issue number 1 and should NOT be lost in the debate.

But what I stated above is another issue. The Israeli Government is resorting to techniques known to be sloppy and which were chosen for their political expediencey and their ability to play to the home audience. There are other ways which would achieve the results of killing off the terrorist leadership without the civilian casualties, but they are not as "noisy" or press friendly.

While you can say that the Terrorist bombings are also "noisy" and press friendly to the home audience and I would agree with you totally here, this does not excuse the Israeli Government from waging an equally sloppy campaign which results in civilian deaths all purely done for the political effect.

L-

[rini]

24. Thank you

"Personally, I don't blame the bombers themselves, but those who recruit them. By the time the bombers pull the trigger they are nothing more than an automaton under the control of someone else. This is issue number 1 and should NOT be lost in the debate"

Under a certain age, say 16 and below, I agree. They are being murdered as surely as their victims. That is why I can not forgive the parents or the recruiters. As I believe I mentioned before, I had a dear friend ( I believe around 30) who was Jordanian. He could hardly wait to get back to Jordon and be a marytr for peace. He never understood why I thought he should live and fight for his ideals and I never understood the "glory: of dying for them.

That'when I realized how different (cousins or not) our cultures are. It saddened me because I saw no way to bridge that wide a gap. Sometimes I think I see this in the suicide bombers.

[Muddleoftheroad]

25. I am surprised

By that rationale you are giving a pass to anyone who does anything after first receiving training. So really, those Nazis in the camps WERE just following orders...

[Lithos]

26. No, different things

I am talking about brainwashing and mind-control, not about people who knew what they were doing.

You will note that the vast majority of suicide bombers have been teenagers or people in their early twenties. This coincedentally is the same age group heavily targeted by extremist groups the world over as they are the most vulnerable for mind control/brainwashing. Why do you think that evengelicals and cults find their most fertile recruiting fields at colleges and universities?

L-

[bluesoul]

27. Very good point

Lithos...

[Muddleoftheroad]

28. Mind control?

Again you rationalize the actions of one side, but criticize the actions of the other.

Not exactly a balanced portrayal.

[Darranar]

29. You don't think he was criticizing the brainwashing of the extremists?

[The Magistrate]

30. It Would Seem To Me, Sir

Mr. Lithos has levelled a rather cutting indictment against the leadership of the various armed Arab Palestinian bodies for their cultivation of human weapons by turning well-known psychological techniques against persons particularly vulnerable to them.

[Muddleoftheroad]

31. It is easy to criticize leaders

But the rank and file deserve the same criticism.

[Lithos]

35. for the most part you are correct

And for those people who drop rockets, Qassam or Hellfire, into the middle of civilian targets, yes you are correct. They do know better.

However, suicide bombers are a bit different and need to be treated as such. These are the ones who have been turned using very well known techniques into mindless automatons, human weapons as you will. Such an act is an abomination of a different type.

Consider the massacre at Guyana, while a few knew what were going on, do you think that many were in their right mind when they were drinking the koolaid? The Heaven's Gate cult?

It's a short hop from there to killing someone else in the name of deliverance.

Here are some links and snippets:

http://english.pravda.ru/accidents/21/96/382/11137_morozov.html

According to the secret services, suicide bombers from the "death battalion include dozens of women. As a rule, potential suicide bombers are forced to join the aforementioned camps. Violence and drugs ruin the trainees and make them blindly obey the gang leaders' orders.

Moreover, the wish to avenge the deaths of relatives, especially husbands killed while fighting as militants, is also widely exploited. During training, extremists manipulate people's emotions fuelling their desire to take revenge for their lost family members. This psychological moulding transforms them into "walking bombs" ready to kill everyone, even children.

http://www.npr.org/programs/morning/transcripts/2003/mar/030307.joyce.html

JOYCE: What does motivate suicide bombers then? Eyad Sarraj has some ideas on that. Sarraj is a Palestinian psychiatrist and director of the Mental Health Community Center in Gaza. He talked with NPR last year after a spate of attacks by suicide bombers.

Dr. EYAD SARRAJ (Mental Health Community Center Director): We're not talking about all of them, but most of them are usually very nice, timid, introvert, have had a problem with power in their childhood, and most of them have had personal experience with serious traumatic events in their lives and particularly witnessing the helplessness of their fathers and the humiliation of their fathers.

JOYCE: But suicide bombers rarely act alone. They are recruited and supported by terrorist organizations. Scott Atran at the University of Michigan says these organizations often use religion and religious rites to create a sort of ritual communion, or bonding, among would-be bombers.

Mr. ATRAN: And this sort of ritual communion often includes gestures of submission and trust, kneeling, bowing, prostrating, baring throats and chests, as well as courtship and bonding. And you find that in forming their suicide cells, the sponsors, these often charismatic sponsors of suicide terrorism, consciously manipulate these kinds of communion to form very tight-knit groups willing to die for one another.



L-

[GabysPoppy]

33. I think some of what Lithos is talking can be found here

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/05/23/60minutes/main555344.shtml

Mind Of The Suicide Bomber

“I went down to him, he showed it to me,” says Murad. “I took his hand and kissed it because he wanted to give me something precious.”

“He wasn't trying to make me wear an explosive belt. He was giving me a ticket to heaven. Because he loves me, he wants me to become a martyr. Because martyrdom is the most exalted thing in our religion. Not just anyone gets the chance to become a martyr.”

snip

Dr. Eyad Sarraj, a Muslim, heads up Gaza's only psychiatric clinic. The families of suicide bombers often come to him for help after the deed is done. That's how he has built up his profile. But are the people who want to become suicide bombers especially violent?

“No. On the contrary. If you look at their personal histories, they usually were very timid people, introvert, their problem was always communication in public or communicating their feelings, so they were not violent at all,” says Sarraj.

snip

This is a short synopsis from a CBS 60 Minutes show aired this previous May. Please read the entire posted piece. The paragraphs snipped for copyright purposes do not give the total seriousness of the issue.

[Darranar]

34. That makes sense...

when desperation and anger and fear for families and friends (though not necceasarily for themselves) cannot be communicated, they can be tapped by those who train these people.

[Lithos]

36. This is a great example of what I was talkinga bout

Thank you for sharing it.

L-

[bemildred]

32. It is the group most prized by any military organization anywhere.

For the reasons you state.

[Classical_Liberal]

37. Document a hizbolla suicide bombing on a civilian?

Also explain why hizbolla hasn't been in a major engagement with the IDF since the IDF left Lebanon.