U.S. can't walk away from its role

[Gimel]

By Wesley Clark

As a cadet at West Point, I learned that a state
cannot survive for long unless it alone controls
the use of force. The story that most vividly
illustrates this point started back in 1948. It is
the story of the State of Israel.

In June of that year, a ship named the Altalena dropped
anchor off the coast of Tel Aviv. The vessel was loaded
with weapons, ammunition and volunteers for a paramilitary
movement. David Ben-Gurion, the head of Israel's new
government, knew the just-declared cease-fire in
the War of Independence would be wrecked if the
Altalena was allowed to off-load. They had no choice but
to order their defense forces to sink the ship. It fell
to a young colonel to carry out those orders. That officer
was Yitzhak Rabin.

Continued here

[La_Serpiente]

1. Hey Gimel

Buenos Dias :bounce: :freak:

[Gimel]

5. Same to you, LS

Muchos gracias

[Saudade]

2. Clark

In this article, Clark reveals the full extent of his mindless pandering, his historical ignorance, and his hypocricy. It is difficult to say whether Clark's mind is immersed in naivety or outright cynicism, but the result is exactly the same.

[bluesoul]

3. How many

of the candidates even try to have a balanced approach? 1,2?

[rini]

4. I was very impressed with this article

thank you for giving me a new perspective.

[Classical_Liberal]

6. I am not voting for Wesley Clark based on this thesis

He neglects that the fence is not on the green line, and is being used as a territorial grab. He claims that the PA is a viable state that can crack down on terrorism when nothing is further from the truth. He has said that this would be some sort of reciprocal action implying that Israel has cracked down on militants. How can this be? Are the settlers gone yet? The militants that were disarmed by Rabin were fighting brits not Palestinians. In fact settler militants control the very government of Israel. He smears hamas with hizbolla, when hizbolla has never done a bus bombing on civilians, has no presence on the West Bank and is moderating. He may have experience in foriegn affairs but he has pretty much told me that he will continue the Bush tradition in Israel. I don't want that. The final irony is the title of this article. By persuing the policies he has outline, he HAS already walked away. Peace loving Arabs and Israelis should just forget the idea that the US will step in because it won't. They say he is Clinton's guy. I guess Clinton has walked away too. How much did Clinton drink before he started singing "imagine" at Peres's birthday? Anyone who thinks Bushco's non-solution will bring peace is dreaming!

[bluesoul]

7. There's not much

that is left. Dennis...

[Classical_Liberal]

8. I believe Dean will persue an even handed approach

.

[GabysPoppy]

11. Hezbollah

http://www.terrorismanswers.com/groups/hezbollah.html



"hizbolla has never done a bus bombing on civilians, has no presence on the West Bank and is moderating."

Mind boggling statement to say the least.

[Aidoneus]

12. your CFR link disproves nothing that C_L says

In the transition periods from Subhi Tufayli to the martyred Abbas Musawi to Hassan Nasrallah as Secretary General of the party, Hizbu'llah has quite radically "moderated" itself (to the great disdain of the "renegade" Tufayli's geniunely radical breakaway faction) and successfully adapted itself to the necessities of a democratic political environment.

They have never carried out any bus bombings on civilians (compare to the massive and wholly deliberate targetting of Lebanese civilians by Israeli bombers), and has no presence in the OPT that I am aware of (Daniel Pipes and other radical "pro-Israel" propagandists may suggest otherwise).

(ps--I expect some sort of fan club to form after I so casually pulled off that nifty radically/moderated contrast)

[Classical_Liberal]

16. Here are the examples provided

a series of kidnappings of Westerners, including several Americans, in the 1980s;

They were cia, stationed during the Lebanese invasion. You should also recall the bombing of the mosque there, that the cia now admits doing.

http://www.shwa.org/topic/iraqwar/truck_bomb.htm

Friday 29th August 2003, Ayatollah Mohammed Baqir al-Hakim an influentiall shia cleric and leader of the Iranian backed Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution was killed by a truck bomb together with over 100 other civilians in attendance at the holiest site for Shia muslims in Iraq, the Imam Ali mosque in Najaf.

This however is not the first time a mosque was hit by a truck bomb.

Long forgotten by Americans, but still alive in the minds of thousands of Middle-East people, our CIA's William Casey, attempting to murder Sheik Muhammed Fedlallah (spiritual leader of Lebanese Shiites), which a truck bomb placed outside a Beirut mosque killed 81 innocent bystanders and injured hundreds.

It was a dirty war, Israelis and Americans and Lebonese played dirty.


the suicide truck bombings that killed more than 200 U.S. Marines at their barracks in Beirut, Lebanon, in 1983;

These are military people.

These last two are disputed.

the 1985 hijacking of TWA flight 847, which featured the famous footage of the plane's pilot leaning out of the cockpit with a gun to his head;

Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for this incident.

July 19, 1996 New York Times.
A specific warning about the flight had been sent by an extremist Saudi organization called the Movement of Islamic Change, the organization that claimed responsibility for blowing up US military personnel in Saudi Arabia last November. "Late this morning we got a copy of a letter in Arabic that we then had translated, and got it to the FBI" said a State Department spokesman ... "It's a ... statement that seems aimed at the Saudi regime or the American presence in Saudi Arabia"...... Officials said they were reviewing a telephone call placed to a Tampa, Florida television station yesterday morning from a man who identified himself as a member of a jihad and claimed responsibility for the crash.


and two major 1990s attacks on Jewish targets in Argentina—the 1992 bombing of the Israeli embassy (killing 29) and the 1994 bombing of a Jewish community center (killing 95).

No hizbolla member was indicted in this case.


None of these events have occurred since Israel left Lebanon.

[Aidoneus]

13. good points C_L, but perhaps consider the source

writing in The Forward, it should not come as much a surprise that he does not deviate greatly from their preferred interpretations of things if he intends to enlist their support against Dear Leader W. :shrug:

[The Magistrate]

14. A Small Clarafication, Ma'am

The Altalena incident occured during late June of 1948, in the period of the first cease-fire imposed by the United Nations in the war between Israel and various Arab states then on-going. England had by then relinquished the Mandate, and English forces been gone from the scene for some weeks. The Etzel was indeed in action alongside the Palmach against Arab armies, both national regulars, and Nationalist irregulars.

While there are certainly things the government of Israel could do from its end to improve matters, it remains true that the action from the Arab Palestinian side that would do most to improve the situation would be precisely what Gen. Clark here urges, namely a real attempt by Palestine Authority security services to disrupt operations by the various irregular armed bodies attacking Israeli civilians. If there is to be any real improvement, both sides must stop using the other's actions or inactions to excuse its own, and proceed to do what lies in its power to improve the situation, regardless of what the other does.

[Classical_Liberal]

17. Since they don't have a police force or government infrastructure

how would they do that? The best thing Arafat could do is dismantle the PA and give the whole mess to Sharon.

[Jack Rabbit]

9. I have little reaction to General Clark's piece

This reads like a brief stump speech from a Presidential candidate. It doesn't say very much.

General Clark makes remarks like "the Palestinians have yet to find their Rabin" and "Israel has a duty to protect her citizens." I have no problem with either remark. What there is to criticize in the piece is what Clark didn't say. For example, I wouldn't have quarreled with him if he also pointed out that Rabin is dead and Israel also needs to find another one. He didn't say that. On the other hand, I didn't read anything in there that was a ringing endorsement of General Sharon's policies, either. It is not surprising that many on this thread have reacted by projecting their own hopes or fears onto Clark's remarks.

The real question is would Clark be more effective in dealing with the problems of ME peace than Bush has been. It goes without saying that he would. Of course, being better than Bush isn't a very ambitious goal.

I will vote for General Clark should he get the Democratic nomination. There is nothing in this piece that persuades me that I shouldn't. On the other hand, there is nothing in it that is going to make me run out and campaign for him, either.

[Classical_Liberal]

10. I'll vote for him if he gets the nomination

for other reasons, but not because of his Israeli position. I don't think I am projecting. I have seen to little in terms of action on this issue, and so many dems have laid down for aipac at this point that I really think you are being too hopeful. You can claim he is being a blank slate all you want, but the fact is if he really wanted to be one he would say nothing on this issue.

[BushCutters]

15. You're not really saying

that Clark has 'laid down for' AIPAC, are you? You really can't even conceive of a decent person being pro-Israel, can you? :eyes: :puke:

[Classical_Liberal]

18. Yes, he laid down

No, I don't think it is decent to support the Likud government. Our policy toward Israel has swung to the right. It is to the right of Carter, Bush SR and even Clinton.

[legin]

19. Puke

I was just getting over my aversion to anything in a military uniform too. I was just coming around to the idea that I could put up with him if push came to shove.

There is a mindset in there that says he ain't going to solve diddly. Fuck him.

[legin]

21. The fact that Dean is a hawk on I/P

is gradualy starting to become un-overlookable too.

Dennis the Menace is the only guy I trust on I/P.

[RuB]

20. Wes Clark would be a true friend to Israel and a great US President

or VP whichever be the case. The possibility of 16 years of Democratic rule of the Presidency is very palpable.

[Classical_Liberal]

22. If he was a true friend rather than just scared of Aipac

he would tell the Israelis to get out of the West Bank, and tell Sharon to disband the PA and give the security situation to Sharon

[BushCutters]

23. Maybe he just plain doesn't agree with you.

Did it ever occur to you he might actually have a handle on the ME situation, what with his military background and so on?

[Classical_Liberal]

24. I don't believe it

Why have we taken such a right wing turn over the last two years? I think it is because aipac with the help of Zell Miller and Ralph Reed targeted Cynthia McCinney. It is also became pretty obvious what used to be mainstream jewish groups like ADL and SWC are now neocon run. Now all the dems are scared of them because they think Jews are repukes now. A majority in the government support transfer. This is not a government any liberal can support with a good conscience.

[Classical_Liberal]

25. I mean Arafat, should dismatle the Pa and put it in Sharon's

ballcourt.

[MrPrax]

26. The title of this thread is misleading...

There should be a question rather than force folks to read about the 'Altalena' power struggle and Clark's misuse of the same...is he saying the Dems should continue to illegally occupied Iraq, impose western norms favorable ot it's corporations and have the draft?

Where's the part about the US getting out and the UN taking over and allowing a spring vote for a new government in Iraq? rescind all the illegal laws and contracts, allow Iraqis to choose whom they might do biz with, allow the Iraqis to kick out the 'foreign' terrorists etc etc...
Or any of that stuff...
NO it is the chilling..."As a cadet at West Point, I learned that a state cannot survive for long unless it alone controls
the use of force."...is this code for US hegemony at all costs