Israel readies for pressure on settlement outposts

[Herschel]

Israeli diplomatic officials are bracing for the return of the unauthorized settlement outpost issue.

After months when little was said, and even less done, regarding the removal of unauthorized settlements, the issue is poised to return in the near future as a result of US pressure and an Israeli interest in giving Palestinian Authority Prime Minister Ahmed Qurei something to bolster his standing on the Palestinian street.

The subject is expected to come up in discussions Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz will have this week in Washington with Secretary of State Colin Powell and National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice. Discussions were reportedly held in the IDF and the Defense Ministry last week discussing which outposts should be removed...

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http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1068446568708

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The subject is being discussed, as it should be. The issue of settlements and outposts must be negotiated. However, a complete retreat out of the disputed territories will not come about. The death of the 1967 border fantasy will advance the cause of a negotiated peace.

[bluesoul]

1. Maybe it's a fantasy for you

It sure as hell ain't for the Palestinian and the right given to them by UN and recognized by numerous conventions, resolutions and most of all international law. Like it or not, Israel will have to give back what is not their...

[Herschel]

3. Listen

Have the resolutions brought a Palestinian state? Have they forced an Israeli retreat? I think you know the answer.

[bluesoul]

6. It doesn't mean

they eventually won't. Unless you think Israel intends to wage war infinetely and defy the UN and the international law. Sooner or later there will be a US administration that won't go along everything that is done...

[Herschel]

8. Israel and America stand shoulder to shoulder

American public sentiment demands she be supported. A retreat would not bring peace.

[bluesoul]

9. Retreat from the occupied territories

is exactly one of the conditions for peace to happen. If you don't believe so, then you don't believe in peace among Palestinians and the Israelis. Which wouldn't surprise me based on your posts...

[Herschel]

10. A negotiated peace would be welcome

But we should not fool ourselves by wishing for unrealistic terms. It is counter-productive.

[Classical_Liberal]

12. Israel had a negotiated peace

and they squandered it. The settlements expanded faster.

[The Magistrate]

16. Support For Israel Among The People Of The United States, Sir

Does not extend to the settlement program. The most widely held view is that the settlements ought to be given up, and an Israeli government which makes them a stumbling block to a peace, by insistence on retaining any but a tiny fraction of them, will quickly forfeit political support among the people of this country for its position in negotiations.

Do not imagine, Sir, that support here for Israel is boundless, and cannot be squandered. It is not, and it can be. Refusal to accept the boundaries extant at the start of the '67 war as the basis for final settlement is one of the quickest ways to achieve that dissolution and squandering of support, particularly when doing so is seen as producing continued killing, by either side. People want the whole bloody mess to come to an end, and the national interests of the United States demand that outcome as well. How it is brought to an end is of much less importance, than that it is brought to an end.

[Herschel]

19. We will disagree

The settlement activity has been extensive for many years. Yet the alliance remains as strong as ever.

[The Magistrate]

24. The Alliance Is Not As Strong As Ever, Sir

It has eroded perceptibly over the last two decades, and at an increasing rate. That it remains strong is true, but the trend is worrisome to friends of Israel, and it is un-wise to cling to a false view in this matter. Today, a principal prop of the alliance is the bad conduct of Israel's foes. Should that cease, or should the conduct of Israel come to be widely viewed as comparably unseemly, the popular support of the alliance among the people of the United States will dissolve. In that case, the impotence of lobby groups to affect matters will surprise both foes and friends of Israel.

A second factor you should pay attention to, Sir, is that it is very much in the interests of the United States to see this conflict brought to a peaceable resolution, and that as quickly as possible. The United States is, and rightfully so, currently engaged in a deadly struggle with fundamentalist Islamicist radicals, and whatever the true purpose of the inner circles of that hostile movement, there can be no doubt that the continuation of the conflict between Israel and Arab Palestine provides one of their chief recruiting tools. Therefore the continuation of this conflict magnifies the power of the leading world antagonist of the United States, and as conflict has a tendency to concentrate the mind, it is only a matter of time before this fact comes to be clearly and widely perceived as a strategic factor in the struggle, and action on it seen as imperative for victory.

If, at that juncture, which is certain to arrive, it is the popular perception in the United States that Israeli expansionism represents a leading stumbling block to achieving a durable solution to the struggle between Israel and Arab Palestine, popular support among our people for any Israeli government clinging to that policy of expansion will crumble, and with great speed. It is an unfortunate fact the drive to establish settlements in the lands overrun in '67 actually is a policy of expansion, and therefore it will likely be that popular perception will come to reflect this, as self-evident truth is difficult to avoid.

Any durable peace in this matter will require each side to forego much that many among its people devoutly desire. Both sides are going to have to give up any dream of ruling the whole extent from the river to the sea, and this applies as much to those who dream of a Greater Israel as to those who dream of a Great Palestine. The acceptance by Israel of permanence for the borders prior to the '67 represents, from the point of view of Arab Palestinians, foregoing a great deal, including something on the order of two-fifths of the acreage origionally granted to the Arab Zone by the United Nations partition in 1947. From the point of view of Arab Palestinians, accepting cash settlement instead of repatriation represents a great concession, that would be of great benefit to the state of Israel, yet it is very likely the overwhelming preponderance of Arab Palestinians would accept such a measure, particularly if it came with a relinquishment of any intention for further expansion on the part of Israel. These two things are going to have to be part of any durable settlement, and if the leaderships governing the two polities are unable to see, and to work out, such an arrangement between themselves, sooner or later it will be imposed on them by outside power.

"There are two possible solutions to the Arab Israeli crisis; the miraculous and the practical. The practical is intervention by the diety. The miraculous is a settlement between the parties themselves."

[Herschel]

25. Begging your pardon

I do not see evidence of a great deterioration in the relationship. Surely support of Israel is partially rooted in it's role as a beacon of democracy and morality. When her enemies behave better, so to speak, perhaps Israel will not require such extensive support. A large reason for American support for Israel is America's belief in her right to exist, which her neighbors do not share. I do not subscribe to the notion that Israel and America's enemies would rest should Israel retreat from the territories. The loathing of Israel will continue regardless of her position in the territories. A retreat emboldens her enemies.

[Darranar]

26. Satisfaction, or emboldenment?

there are two possibilities, but in such a situation where Israel's enemies depend on popular support created by a horrible domestic situation perpetuated in part by Israel, satisfaction seems the most likely result.

[The Magistrate]

27. There Is No Call To Speak Of Beacons, Mr. Herschel

Particularly in the realms of democracy and morality, the people of the United States are rather disinclined to look abroad for inspiration or example, regarding themselves to be the beacons for the whole rest of the world where democracy and morality are concerned. That boilerplate staple forms no part at all of the attachment. It is true that the basically Western character of Israeli society and institutions form a part of the glue, and what might be mildly described as a similarity of frontier experience and mythos forms another part of it. Cold War service makes up much of the rest. All of these are fading somewhat, the latter two particularly. Support for the most extreme positions of Israeli expansionism are concentrated on the religious right in this country, among persons given to End Times delusions, and these are scarcely friends of Jews, nor of Israel, even, in any real sense: it is simply a marker for fulfillment of prophecies, that must come to pass ere the Christ may return. Insistence by Israel on a policy of expansion will erode support from all other quarters. Many people, such as myself, are unyielding in support of Israel's right to exist, but see no right of Israel to further expansion, and even view the policy's pursuit as a threat to Israel's existance, at least as a democratic Jewish nation.

[Classical_Liberal]

11. Peace doesn't seem to work much either

unfortunately.

[Aidoneus]

2. "disputed"?

.

[Herschel]

5. Indeed

In reality the territories are in dispute. There are extensive Israeli settlements as you know. To entertain the 1967 borders is as destructive as entertaining the right of return nonsense.

[bluesoul]

7. Here we go

again! You can't expect peace to happen under such terms. Even more I don't think the majority of Israeli's share such views.

[Saudade]

4. Yeah!

Yet another brilliant, insightful thought-provoking post:

"The subject is being discussed, as it should be. The issue of settlements and outposts must be negotiated. However, a complete retreat out of the disputed territories will not come about."

[ThorsteinVeblen]

13. The outcome is now obvious to me

There will be no "two-state" solution. Israel will build its fences, caging Palestinians into massive camps on land bereft of resources or economic potential. Prisoner's shares of water and electricity will be rationed out while Israeli citizens will live the life of the comfortable West.

The Palestinian population will continue to violently resist their wardens and Israel will continue the slow, sure process of claiming more land using security as an excuse.

Slowly but surely, glacially slow, so as not to arouse international rebuke, Israel will cleanse more and more of Judah and Sumeria and the Gaza strip of the non-Israeli Arab population - straving them of food, water, education, freedom.

Finally, Israel will start a war with one of the neighboring Arab countries and the remainder of the non-Israeli Arab popluation will be shipped off to camps on the land siezed during the war.

Sharon's plan will succeed in cleansing "Israel" of the Palestinians in a little over 50 years.

[bluesoul]

14. And it will be called

"self-defense"...

[Forkboy]

15. "Little Israel" would do no such thing.

[Herschel]

18. Fascinating scenario

I believe you overstate the situation, however.

[legin]

20. Yup. Yup.

great post.

I read something a while ago which gave a sort of flashback to the thinking of the peace movement in israel 20 years ago.

They were then talking about including lots of land outside the green line within the 'to be created' Palestinian state.

Now the green line is sort of the maximum they are talking about.

This time now is a hot spot some way through the process. The aim of this particular segement of I/P history is to break the idea in peoples minds that the Green Line is a natural border for the (never to created) Palestinian state, and make it the little enclosure that israel is building for the Palestinians on 50-60% of the West Bank.

And then 20-30 years of work down the road that will be the next idea that is broken.

And it can be done on auto-pilot too because it is only using exactly the same ideas as have been used since around 1917 and probably before that.

[legin]

21. And after the eastern side of the fence goes up

In the remaining 40-50% of the West Bank it is going to be so crowded with settlers creating 'facts on the ground', that it will be worse than Harrods during the after-Christmas sales.

[legin]

22. Of course

there will have to be a nice propaganda offensive to go along with this, so i assume the left wing and the Europeans will be geting even more anti-Semitic then we are already ("a new study conducted by the ADL shows...").

[legin]

23. Milosovich was a complete amateur n/t

.

[tinnypriv]

17. More Jpost shite

The US pressure returned a few days ago, and this meeting has almost nothing to do with it.

Mofaz has already drawn up a list of 20 "outposts" to dismantle.

This is just another sick joke for Hasbarah purposes.

[Name removed]

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