MR. SHARON, TEAR DOWN THAT WALL!

[bemildred]

A fine rant from Justin. Please note that Justin is
a Libertarian, hence the occasional odd note.

The "fence," as the Israelis and their amen corner in
the U.S. call it, is actually a wall, about 25 feet high:
higher than the Berlin Wall. Like every atrocity
carried out by the Israeli government, it is being sold
as a "defensive" measure, but is in reality an act of
aggression, cutting off large swathes of Palestinian
property from the main body of the Palestinian
community and preemptively establishing a border
on annexed land. As the Los Angeles Times reported:

"The red signs appeared one morning on the barbed
wire. 'Mortal danger; military zone,' they read. 'Any
person who passes or damages the fence endangers
his life.'

"And just like that, Mohammed Habbas was
forbidden to reach the acres of fields and olive groves
that have been in the family for as long as anyone
here can remember. The people of this tiny hillside
village were left behind when Israeli military walls
chopped away more than half of their property,
snaking all the way to the edges of houses to swallow
the land - but exclude the people."

antiwar.com

[Darranar]

1. Some "odd notes" indeed...

(Crippled by socialism?) but I agree vaguely with the main point.

A wall for short-term security created in combination with a peace plan will give the Israelis security short-term (through the wall) and long term (through the peace plan.) This wall, however, must be built on the Green Line-somthing taht is not occuring.

[bemildred]

3. "Crippled by socialism"

Yes, that's what I meant.

[Equinox]

11. Darranar...

You seem to me, someone who is very reasonable. I can appreciate that. I have to disagree that the wall gives Israel security (short or long term). This will incite the Palestinians more than any Imam or Hamas Leader ever could.

Adage: Action speaks louder than words.

Israel has a chance to make genuine gestures towards peace. This is not a gesture towards peace. It is a dictate to how and where the Palestinian "limited" state shall exist (if there ever is one). This is not for Israel to decide unilaterally.

Peace should be bilateral.

Anyone can make war or "unpeace" unilaterally. Who's willing to step up on both sides?

[Darranar]

28. I'm not talking about the wall...

that Israel is building. I'm talking about the wall that Israel should be building, if anything: one on the 1967 borders.

[Violet_Crumble]

12. If the wall was built on the Green Line....

I wouldn't have much of a problem with it. It's the taking of more land that isn't part of Israel that's the problem. If they stuck to the Green Line I doubt they'd have to take the land of farmers and destroy olive groves etc. Which is why I see it as an aggressive action to grab more land, rather than anything in the name of ensuring security. If it were to be built along the Green Line, I figure they can do what they like on their own border, no matter how short-sighted a solution I see it as. Working sincerely towards a workable peace is a much better short and long-term solution than whacking up a butt-ugly wall that makes the Berlin Wall look like the tiny retaining wall in my front yard. There's people that claim that the wall is a long-term security measure, but by claiming that they appear to be ignoring any moves towards peace and assuming that the current status-quo will go on forever where Israel continues to take land and move settlers into the Occupied Territories and suicide bombers continue to try to get into Israel. If the Roadmap works and the current truce holds and turns into something much more long-term, where would all these potential suicide-bombers be coming from and why? I really don't fall for that paranoid chant of some folk that suicide-bombers want to kill of the Jews and they'll do it even if there is a viable and independent Palestinian state. The problem that I can see is that even if a state comes into being and the Roadmap actually works, there'll be a bunch of these ultra-paranoid folk then crowing that if it wasn't for the wall, there'd be a flood of Palestinians (and these sort of folk tend to act like all Palestinians are suicide-bombers)heading to Israel to blow themselves and anyone around them sky-high. Personally I think building a wall only shows the insecurity of the nation building it, and if someone wants badly enough to get in and do some major damage, they'll find a way to do it, wall or not...

Violet...

[Muddleoftheroad]

15. You are arguing

That nations should never take defensive measures because those who want to attack will do so. That's silly.

The wall addresses a major security concern. Lacking a viable partner for peace, Israel has set to work to build a security system for all of its citizens. If a viable Palestinian government that was pro-peace had negotiated a peace that placed the wall elsewhere, then it would not be built where it is.

[newyorican]

16. Strawman alert!

She didn't state what you say or even imply. Particularly clumsy attempt at the Strawman disinformation tactic.

4. Use a straw man. Find or create a seeming element of your opponent's argument which you can easily knock down to make yourself look good and the opponent to look bad. Either make up an issue you may safely imply exists based on your interpretation of the opponent/opponent arguments/situation, or select the weakest aspect of the weakest charges. Amplify their significance and destroy them in a way which appears to debunk all the charges, real and fabricated alike, while actually avoiding discussion of the real issues.

http://www.home.datawest.net/esn-recovery/artcls/disinfo.htm#Use%20a%20straw%20man.

But at least you are on record as supporting the defacto annexation the Aparthied wall will produce. The next step is ethnic cleansing(transfer)...hmmm...this is more like a 12-step program to losing ones soul than a roadmap to peace. :shrug:

[Muddleoftheroad]

18. My comment

No straw, not at aw.

Here is the comment I was referring to, if: "someone wants badly enough to get in and do some major damage, they'll find a way to do it, wall or not."

That sort of fatalism is not a way toward an effective defense posture.

[newyorican]

19. I'll accept that backpedal...

"That sort of fatalism is not a way toward an effective defense posture."

The above is a legit response IMO and makes nearly the same point as the below comment, which does raise a strawman argument with a little argumentive ad homien thrown in for good measure:

"You are arguing...That nations should never take defensive measures because those who want to attack will do so. That's silly."

[Violet_Crumble]

30. Uh, no I wasn't....

So if you want to argue that, you can do it with someone else who actually said and thinks that. I didn't. From what I've seen I hold the same view on this wall as Darranar does. I suggest you reread my post again and take special notice of the first sentence. My problem isn't with the wall itself but where it's being built. There is no justification for a state to build a wall on territory that doesn't belong to it...


Violet...

[Muddleoftheroad]

36. Until a settlement

With a viable Palestinian leadership, a peace settlement, then it's not PA land.

Do you honestly believe that the Palestinians are going to get all of the pre-1967 West Bank?

[Violet_Crumble]

38. Yr missing the point, Muddle...

The issue is that it's NOT Israeli land. You don't think it is, do you?

Do I honestly believe that the Palestinians will get all of the pre-67 West Bank? To be honest, no. Not the way things are going and the way Sharon and successive governments have made it very clear they want large chunks of that land. Do I think the Palestinians should get all of the pre-67 territory? I sure do. It's their land, not Israels....


Violet...

[Muddleoftheroad]

39. The heart of our disagreement

I think Israel has every right to keep it, but hope that they will give most (not Jerusalem) to a viable, peaceful Palestinian partner to form a state.

[Darranar]

29. I meant...

that the wall should provide security during the negotiations for the peace process. Negotiations take time. During that time, there will be terrorists working against it. Many of them, though surely not all, will be stopped by the wall. That is the purpose that I support.

[StandWatie]

2. what's odd is I've seen pictures of the Wall in the media

People who talk about "ragheads" and a bunch of other garbage were telling me how smart Sharon is to donut hole the Palestinians into oblivion.

If they can figure out the plan given the obvious visual clues, I'm hoping the better nature of most Americans which I believe exists will start noticing something is dreadfully wrong over there.

[bemildred]

5. Hope is always good.

[Darranar]

9. Yah...

If I can figure it out, with my obvious pro-Irseal tilt, they should be able to.

[Jim Sagle]

4. Actually Justin is a worthless piece of Nazi filth.

[bemildred]

6. No, no, he's Libertarian.

They don't like big government.

[Poll_Blind]

7. Doing your part to win hearts and minds, eh, Jim?

PB

[Equinox]

13. Jim,

do you have proof such allegations?

Throwing out the term Nazi carelessly only diminishes it's value as a foul term.

Nazis are/were the epitomy of human filfth and madness. Do you really think this man is?

[Wonder]

23. Tut Tut -- your comment is

actually libelous, untrue and to coin what I see is your favorite expression, just a bunch a shit!

[Gimel]

8. Olive groves

If the Arab birth rate continues to outpace that of the Israelis, the Jewish state will be no more. That is the real reason for the Wall.
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/j073003.html

Olive groves are beautiful, but so are people. No, we won't exchange the lives of innocent Jews for a few olive trees.

The future citizens of the future Palestine will have their olive groves, but only if Israel is allowed to live in peace. The high birth rate is not the only threat to the existence of an Israeli state. Depending on the outcome of th "right of return" demand, the birth rate among the Palestinians is their business, not Israel's.

[CitizenDick]

10. Clarify please

"No, we won't exchange the lives of innocent Jews for a few olive trees."

What about the lives of innocent Arab Israelis? You excluded them. I wonder how their lives might fit into your exchange equation.

[bemildred]

17. "The end justifies the means."

What is there to explain?

And of course the pretension that it's just some trees,
no people involved.

This seems a fitting place for this:

Means determine ends; and must be like the ends proposed.
Means intrinsically different from the ends proposed achieve
ends like themselves, not like those they were meant to
achieve. Violence and war will produce a peace and an social
organization having the potentialities for more violence and
war. Aldous Huxley - Eyeless in Gaza

[Gimel]

24. Saved also

No conflict, fewer innocent deaths on both sides.

[CitizenDick]

27. Sorry

That doesn't answer the question. You referred to saving "Jewish" lives, excluding Arabs. Was curious why you did that.

[Equinox]

14. Are we dabbling in Eugenics here?

That is extremely scary.

Edit: Corrected title

[Wonder]

20. shhhhh -- we don't want to hold the son accountable

for the sins of the father assuming you are talking about Bush. If it was Sharon you were referring to than shhhhhh -- no extermination parallels are to be drawn we can barely even reference early zionist movement anti-arab transfer policies which to this day even wherein revisionist speak about them openly while supporting transfer today, denial of "Zionist plots" must be maintained because I guess "Zionist plots" is not the politically correct terminology.

[Wonder]

21. ...

!

[Gimel]

26. Also wonder...?

No connection that I can see.

:shrug:

[Wonder]

37. it's all in the eye of the beholder!

[Equinox]

31. Why not? If such things exist, they should be outed.

I'm confused. I thought I was progressive and fairly liberal. I come here and find out that I might not have understood those definitions.

[Wonder]

22. Ah Yes Raimondo Strikes Again.

I may not agree with him all of his rants, but he does have a way of calling a spade a spade. All are not fooled. This is all in keeping with Sharon's underlying plans which he initiated back in 2001, has not steered from it since. What peace process? By the time it arrives Sharon's real plan will be a fait accompli...

Following the day to day news is all but a distraction from the real agenda at play here, from which Sharon and his complacent friend the US has yet to veer from.

[bemildred]

25. Agreed.

I think we may expect a resumption of hostilities soon.

[Wonder]

32. I am sure of it!

What a shame!

[Yentatelaventa]

33. If the anti-Jewish terrorists were eliminated the wall would not exist

sad. very sad.

[StandWatie]

34. oh, I'm sure that's true

back when the Palestinians behaved themselved more or less they were free to travel around and work for wages no Israeli Jew would take and exist as non-voting, servile, untermensh

[Wonder]

35. 2002: Dr Mustafa Barghouti speaks on construction of Israeli “Berlin”

PRESS RELEASE: http://www.palestinemonitor.org/updates/dr_mustafa_barghouti_speaks_on_berlinwall.htm

“It was shocking to see the enormity of the wall itself – along with the enormity of the consequences it will have on the Palestinian people living in the area,” said Barghouti. “26,000 Palestinians will be separated from their land, which will be annexed by Israel on the other side of the wall, while 11,000 Palestinians will be trapped in a ‘no-man’s land’ between the wall and Israel.”

“Furthermore, more than 40,000 Palestinians will be almost completely cut off from the world in open air prisons, with the wall almost completely surrounding Qalqilya and Zita,” said Barghouti.