What does Europe want from the Jews?

[rini]

The current European hostility towards Israel, that is manifested as much in its policies as in its overt expressions of anti-Semitism is not simply a matter of never fully accepting Israel's right to exist. This conditional European acceptance of Jewish sovereignty is now linked to European aspirations to cultural hegemony over America. There is a direct connection between Europe's anti-Semitism and its anti-Americanism. European anti-Americanism stems from cultural envy of American independence and power. Europe wants America to accept its cultural superiority and in so doing, hitch US military and financial might to European visions of social engineering and global governance.

Anti-Semitism plays an enormous role in the New Europe's attempt to force the US to adhere to its cultural dictates. If the US can be convinced that Israel is the gravest danger to world peace, as the vast majority of Europeans believe, then the US will effectively abandon its right to make moral distinctions for itself and come to rely on European guidance in its application of its military might.



Israel has become a European pawn in its power bid to force its norms on America. If we wish to combat European anti-Semitism, we must understand that it has nothing to do with our actions. Rather, the resurgence of Jew-hatred in Europe has to do with the European quest for power.

<the entire article is a must read>

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1068697370498

[Darranar]

1. This article is complete junk...

59% of those polled did not say that Israel was the greatest threat to world peace; rather, they said it was a threat to world peace.

What do you define as "anti-Americanism"? Is it sharp criticism of US foreign policy, or is it generalizations about Americans?

In my opinion it is the latter. When many people complain about anti-Americanism, they define it as the former.

This great anti-semitic anti-American "New Left" conspiracy to destroy the US and Israel is a load of trash.

Because I am against the Iraq war and think it was for oil, am I now anti-American? Because I am against NAFTA and the WTO for the essential slavery they condemn thousands of workers across the world to, am I now anti-American? Because I despise multinational corporations based in the US that try to dominate other nation's economies and governments for profit, am I now anti-American? Because I dislike American foreign policy in its propping up of many brutal regimes across the world, am I now anti-American?

Europe is not the root of all evil. Europeans are not vile, bloodthirsty monsters with a taste for Jewish and American blood. It is not anti-semitic to criticize Israel, nor is it anti-American to criticize the US.

This is more JPost trash. This is pure right-wing propaganda.

[HereSince1628]

2. So, is JPost a conservative paper?

I really don't know, but I think I should in order to evaluate this.
Richard Perle is or was on the board of directors.

[Darranar]

4. Oh, yes...

That it most certainly is.

[Jack Rabbit]

6. No, the JPost is not consevative

It is right wing. One difference is that conservatives can be reasonable.

The piece is full of loaded words and logical fallacies. Even assuming that Mikos Theodorakis is a card-carrying anti-Semite does not prove that the what is true of Theodorakis in particular is true of Europeans in general, even if it does come a week after more Europeans named Israel as a threat to world peace than named the US.

There are many things that contributed to that result, anti-Semitism being one. Ignorace could be another explantion; many in the poll also named Iraq as a threat to world peace, although Iraq is not at the moment an independent state. Still another reason might be that some people might think that a nation that possesses nuclear weapons and is situated in a political unstable region, and which has a right wing goverment that is pursuing a policy of territorial expansion at the expense of her neighbors, is a threat to peace.

The poll was not even designed to determine how much of it could be attributed to anti-Semitism as opposed to other reasons.

Even assuming that What does Europe want from the Jews? is a fair question, one would be well advised to look for an honest answer somewhere other than Conrad Black's fishwrap.

[Darranar]

7. Iraq and Afghanistan...

were, I believe, references to the situations there. I think that is also true of Israel.

And I do think Israel is a threat to world peace. That could well change sooner or later, but in its current state, with Sharon leading it, I think that it most certainly is.

[Jack Rabbit]

10. Thank you. Another point about that EU poll

That poll did not say that anyone in Europe thought Israel was the greatest threat to world peace, only that more people in Europe named Israel as a threat to world peace than any other nation.

[aneerkoinos]

9. Theodorakis

is not antisemite, he's antifascist. He's been fighting fascism all his life, he's cripple because of fascist violence. Now he is fighting Jewish fascists of Likud and other right wing parties. Maybe he knows fascism better than the Likud worshippers and religious fundamentalists using the the word 'anti-semitism' to defend Ghetto building Sharon and Netanyahu and their crimes by trying to smear the motives of European and other anti-fascists. If anything, this kind of use of the word is an insult to all the victims of fascism, Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, democratic activists etc., all of them.

I'm truly fed up trying to be nice about this. I too have a name for those people who make a habit of implying that I and my fellow Europeans are anti-semites because we don't agree with Sharon, Netanyahu, Perle etc. I call those people - and rightly so - fascists and appeasers to fascism.

[Classical_Liberal]

3. another right wing nut from Jpost

1)criticism of Israel is not antisemitism. 2)The EU recognizes the right of Israel to exist. 3)This Richard Perle and Conrad Black employee is projecting a bit when he claims the EU wants hegemony over America. It is the other way around. 4)criticism of America is not antiamerican. 5)The french were right. We shouldn't have invaded Iraq, and we should be acting as even handed peace brokers between the Palestinians and Israelis.

[Paschall]

5. New Europe?!?

"Anti-Semitism plays an enormous role in the New Europe's attempt to force the US to adhere to its cultural dictates."

New Europe? I thought the enemy was Old Europe! Silly me. :eyes:

Once again, the Jerusalem Post op-ed page proves itself worthy of wrapping fish.

Really, rini, there are much more edifying news sources from Israel. Try 'em, you may even like 'em.

[bemildred]

8. Is this guy smoking crack? nt

[tinnypriv]

11. LOL

:thumbsup:

[Paschall]

12. Ya might want to check out the Moisi article cited

The Real Crisis Over the Atlantic
Dominique Moisi
From Foreign Affairs, July/August 2001

<snip> But today, the combination of American moralizing at home and cynicism abroad could severely harm relations between Europe and the United States. It is highly significant that no one in Europe seriously considers George W. Bush's America a political model in the way that Ronald Reagan's conservative revolution inspired many European intellectuals and politicians. And the recent U.S. presidential election chaos did not encourage European confidence in American democracy. ...

The central problem lies in the divergence of U.S. and European agendas. Whereas Washington remains obsessed with rogue states and weapons of mass destruction, Europeans are more concerned with the future of the planet and of their food. This dichotomy explains not only the gap between a "responsible" global power and "selfish" regional players but the shift from the Cold War to the global age. </snip>

Foreign Affairs

Like many other absurdities in the article from the Jerusalem Post, this one--"Moissy's {sic} argument, at base, was that the US needs to accept European cultural supremacy if it wishes to maintain its Atlantic alliance with a self-confident New Europe."--is unfounded.

[Paschall]

13. This is a lie

<snip>And the publication of the EU poll came but a week after the EU, under French leadership, refused to condemn the anti-Semitic screed uttered by Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohammed at the Islamic Summit Conference where he said that "the Jews rule the world by proxy. They get others to fight and die for them."</snip>

From the Conseil européen de Bruxelles (16 octobre 2003)
Déclaration de la Présidence sur les déclarations de M. Mahathir au Sommet de la Conférence islamique.

President Chirac:
"The EU deeply deplores the comments made earlier today by Dr Mahathir in his speech at the opening of the 10th session of the Islamic Summit conference in Putrajaya, Malaysia, in which he said:

'We are actually very strong. 1.3 billion people cannot be simply wiped out. The Europeans killed 6 million Jews out of 12 million. But today the Jews rule this world by proxy. They get others to fight and die for them.'

"Such words hinder all our efforts to further inter-ethnic and religious harmony, and have absolutely no place in a tolerant world."
source: http://www.ueitalia2003.it

[tinnypriv]

14. Bear in mind this guy was probably influenced by the papers that day

"THE FACE OF ANTI-SEMITISM" + Big picture of Chirac.

Was a nice cover story in Israel. :eyes:

[aneerkoinos]

18. The problem

of Chiracs condemnation is of course is that it is eloquent, accurate and points to the real problem - ethnicism and intolerance, and dares to use positive words like 'harmony' and 'tolerance', but does not use the word 'anti-Semitic' to describe Mahathirs opinions. (because that too would inaccurate and because of that also intolerant, if somebody needs a clarification.)

[Darranar]

19. Mahathir's statements weren't anti-semitic?

Uh... how exactly were they not?

[tinnypriv]

20. Jews rule the world ain't anti-semitic?

Er, what is then? :shrug:

"Mahathir's comments are outrageous" - Noam Chomsky,

(commenting on the anti-semitic portion of the speech)

[aneerkoinos]

21. It would be anti-semitic

if the falce notion of Jewish conspiracy ruling the world (in fact capitalist conspiracy) would be used for the same purpose as nazi's used it.

Mahathir is not Western and does not share the European history and guilt of progroms and using Jews and "Jewish conspiracy ruling the world" as scapegoats to promote fascism, and apparently does not share the Western sensitivities. Should he? His comment seems to come from his (falce) perception that West and especially US favours Israel over Arabs and Moslems because of Jews in prominent places in governement and corporations. It is easy to see how he can come to such conclusion (Perle, Wolfowitz etc), but he is still wrong. Does that make him anti-Semite? Not necessarily, and to show our tolerance, we should give also him benefit of doubt. Can he be anti-Semite? Sure, but this is not enough evidence to make that judgement. Is that comment outrageous, like Chomsky says? Whith that I can agree, that kind of historical insensitivity is outrageous for any political leader, but historical insensitivity about Jews about is not same as anti-Semitism.

I think we should be very carefull about the word 'anti-Semitism' and reserve it to it's actual meaning, racist attitude against Jews (or all semites in larger literal sense). What we should stop using is using horrible historical injustice against one semitic people and our guilt over that crime as a justification for other crime against other semitic people. We can't undo our crimes and change history, we can't blame citizens of Israel for the fact that their state is based on crime, because that is OUR crime, making innocent people pay so that we could ease our feeling of guilt. What we should do is accept our responsibility and the double guilt, make no more crimes and accept current reality and needs of the all victims of our crimes (whom we by our actions made enemies against each other) and find a peacefull and just compromise for all the people who now live in Israel and Palestine and in neighboring countries.

[Jack Rabbit]

22. Nevertheless, it is anti-Semitism

Some would argue that the false notion of a Jewish conspiracy being used to promote any goal, fascist or otherwise, or even to promote nothing but the false notion in and of itelf, is anti-Semitism. I certainly would.

While Mahathir is not Western, he is the Prime Minister of a nation and should be educated and cosmopolitan enough to reject the very nonsense that he promoted. Consequently, he should not be given the benefit of the doubt.

You're right, there have been some baseless charges of anti-Semitism; we have seen too many charges of anti-Semitism at anybody who simply speaks out against Sharon. Nevertheless, one should not necessary be absolved of anti-Semitism after speaking out against Sharon if it is done in a manner to imply that all Jews are guilty of or complicit in Sharon's crimes. That would be anti-Semitism.

To state Meyer Lansky is a gangster is to state a judgment that is supported by facts. To state that Meyer Lansky is a a Jew is also a judgment supported by facts. To state Meyer Lanksy is a gangster because he is a Jew or Meyer Lanksy is a gangster and so are all Jews is to engage in anti-Semitism.

[Cassandra]

24. The mind reels

"Can he be anti-Semite? Sure, but this is not enough evidence to make that judgement."
Yes, there is.

" historical insensitivity about Jews about is not same as anti-Semitism."
Really? Could have fooled me.

"we can't blame citizens of Israel for the fact that their state is based on crime"
Please, find me a country that is not based on crime much more heinous than anything Israel has ever done. What is a future Palestinian state likely to be based on? Crime or crime and corruption?

[Violet_Crumble]

26. Sorry, but Mahathir is a bigot...

Does that make him anti-Semite? Not necessarily, and to show our tolerance, we should give also him benefit of doubt. Can he be anti-Semite? Sure, but this is not enough evidence to make that judgement.

It's not just those comments of his that gives enough evidence to make that judgement, but his past history of bigotry, not only towards Jews, but Australians, Europeans and other groups. So what if he's not Western? Do you really think many Malaysians think like he does? He's an educated man and what's more, he was Malaysian PM when he made those comments. Ignorance just doesn't cut it as an excuse. The comments were most definately anti-Semitic, and I've never believed in showing tolerance to bigots of any stripe...

Violet...

[aneerkoinos]

15. What does Europe want?

The heading implies that the writer is a racist or at least is full of misguided ethnic conseptions. What does Europe want from Aryans or blacks or whites or Muslims or Christiens or Wiccans? The question is imbecile. Behave and be nice to each other.

"European hostility towards Israel", "overt expressions of anti-Semitism", "conditional acceptance of Jewish sovereignty", "European anti-Semitism" etc. are not facts of widely spread phenomena, they are bigoted anti-European insults of the worst kind.

Sure, there is some anti-Semitism in Europe, there is racism of every variety - especially against Gypsies and immigrants from Africa, there is xenophobia and intolerance. To counter these most European countries have strict laws against racism and hate speech, also lot of money and brain-power are spent on various educational and social programs and scientific study related to these phenomena.

Now, what does Europe want from state of Israel, thats a fair question. Same as from every other state, including US: peace, stability, respect for human rights, respect for international law. Those European values that the writer finds so horrible, can be found in the European Charter of Human Rights, go check it out and see how horrible they are.

We are proud of those values, and yes, we think they are in many ways superior to US values for example. We think those values are universal and are not ashamed to recommend those values to other nations - in fact absorbing those values is requirement for membership in the union. Essential part of those values is that they must be accepted voluntarily, through dialogue, not by force. We don't think end justifies the means, we are not Jesuits. We are not perfect, we don't allways live up to our own expectations (especially when some of our governements are willing to be appeasers to US imperialism and fascism, most (but not all) of the applied European double standards are consequense of the subservient allience to the trans Atlantic partner), and we haven't yet succeeded in stopping the spreading of neo-liberal market fundamentalist ideology.

[legin]

16. Mmmmmmmm...

I think I'm going have to start being mean and vidictive and start remembering all these slights and insults that are hurled at me, so I can pay people back for them later.

The other week a "cockroach", and then "Euro trash".
Mind you:
"legin the anti-Semitic, cultural imperialist, garbage-loving cockroach"
does have a nice ring to it.

Maybe I will make it my sig line.
:evilgrin:

[legin]

17. maybe

if and when i get slung off the board for posting in the I/P forum I will come back as 'cockroach'.

[Cassandra]

23. Whatever floats your boat.

"legin the anti-Semitic, cultural imperialist, garbage-loving cockroach"

If you say so. :shrug:

[Violet_Crumble]

25. Well, if the entire article is a must-read...

...the only way I can read the entire thing is if you copy'n'paste it into a PM and send it to me, or point me to somewhere else online I can read it. I tried to register with JPost once, actually got in and read an article, and then couldn't get back in when I returned the next day. So given that JPost is a right-wing rag peddling right-wing views, I haven't bothered again. But if you say this article is a Must-Read, then so be it. If it continues in the vein it starts in, it'll be good for a bit of a laugh. All that European anti-Americanism and European jealousy of the US for it's freedom and power, and the bit about European hegemony does sound a lot like something that'd sit right at home on the PNAC site, but I'd like to read the entire thing so I can ask the question: "Now what sort of idiots would believe this right-wing crap?"

Violet...

[bluesoul]

27. This article ain't nuthin

but RW BS! As most of Jpost stuff is anyway...