In the UN, Arabs have the ultimate revenge over Israel

[drdon326]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2003/11/17/do1701.xml&sSheet=/portal/2003/11/17/ixportal.html

The UN is not furnished luxuriously, but it is a congenial place. Sitting in one of its lounges, sipping an iced chai latte, one could see the irony of the situation. If the Arab world has any legitimate case against Israel, it is not the occupied territories, which are in Israeli hands only because of wars the Arabs launched. It is what they see as the initial injustice behind the Jewish state's founding.

The world's response to the Nazi holocaust and centuries of European persecution of Jews - including Tsarist-inspired pogroms and, indeed, French anti-Semitism, whose Dreyfus Affair inspired Theodor Herzl's Zionism - was to give away a slice of Arab Muslim land to the Jews. While one fully appreciates the Jews' historical and religious connection to the land of Zion, it must be said that insofar as the Arab case has any persuasive merit, it is on this initial point.

But the Arabs have had a great revenge. They have taken over the very body that was responsible for this - the United Nations - with the hope that the organisation that created the injustice may well be the instrument of its undoing. And that, as the bluebottle on the wall could tell you, is a story that has not unfolded yet.

..................................................................

[Jim Sagle]

1. Word.

[bluesoul]

2. Bull

...

[Muddleoftheroad]

3. Why?

nt

[Paschall]

4. I wonder

There was much outrage at the Malaysian PM's remarks that "Jews rule the world"--and those remarks were (imho) rightfully labelled anti-Semitic. But isn't claiming "Arabs have taken over the United Nations" equally xenophobic?

I believe it is. Why is this racism tolerated?

[Muddleoftheroad]

5. Not at all

Hell, even he claimed it in his speech.

He said, paraphrasing here, that they had over 50 Muslim nations and had enough power to control world bodies -- like the UN.

Israel is out numbered in the Mideast and even more so in the UN and people here wonder why there are so many UN resolutions against Israel.

[Paschall]

6. I'm not speaking of the Malaysian PM's remarks

But the racist content of this editorial. The editorialist is not quoting the speech, but expressing her own opinion.

[Muddleoftheroad]

7. And he was expressing his

This editorial says much the same thing, except he was admiting the truth of the situation.

It is not racist to say that a voting bloc of 50 Muslim nations can hold sway in the UN.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Muddleoftheroad]

23. They don't

So it would be racist.

[bluesoul]

25. Really?

In the present administration? Among the neocons?

[The Magistrate]

29. Really, Mr. Soul

The chief political power behind current developments in the United States is the fundamentalist Christian right, bolstered by lingering resentments among many whites against the Civil Rights movement, and by continuing resentments against some cultural trends that isolate those who cling rigidly to traditional mores. These provide the reactionary politicoes with some mass following, sufficient to their purposes, given the cash at their disposal from magnates interested mostly in depressing wages and evading taxation and regulation of their enterprises. The position of a few persons in advisory roles is no more substantial than that of any "Court Jew" in the medieval period.

[bluesoul]

31. True

I only wanted to prove how absurd such points about Arab "domination" in the UN are. Just because they form part of the UN (far from majority) just as there are certain influential members in the administration that are Jewish and are strongly tied to Israel I made the same comparison. It's as much true as the one about the Arab domination...

[The Magistrate]

32. There Are Some Differences In The Matters, Sir

Bloc voting is a real phenomenon in democratic institutions, and generally does not require control of a majority bloc to dominate an assembly. Both municipal machine politics, and radical infiltration of liberal groups, work on this principal. A bloc of no more than ten or fifteen percent, if always voting in unison, can provide a landslide appearance, as the remaining portion of the body may be expected to break into roughly equal proportions for and against any contested proposition. The unity of the Islamic countries voting as a bloc in this matter is an important feature of the United Nations general assembly.

Such a bloc is in a position to do some serious log-rolling, where what other blocs or individuals desire is concerned. Support of the bloc, given or withheld, can be crucial to what others desire or fear. Thus votes can be gathered to the bloc on some particular issue, to see to it other, unrelated things come about as desired.

In this particular matter, the thing is complicated by its monumental unimportance. The great preponderance of people and nations are wholly unaffected, in any material sense, by this Levantine fracas. Its solution in one direction or another, or its continuance in present form, is honestly a matter of complete indifference to them. Thus, to gain favor with the sizeable interested bloc, it is easy to align with it. Nor are there any great consequences to be feared for doing so: the United States has not made any great effort to punish nations for voting against Israel in the General Assembly, for the thing is of small moment to U.S. diplomacy and economic power.

[bluesoul]

33. Excuse me Mr Magistrate

but when you have all UN members except for Israel, US and it's two Island proxies voting against a certain resolution it is very clear that it's FAR beyond an Arab bloc. It simply means that there is an almost universal view on what Israel is doing and that it is wrong. Such a vast majority can't be wrong...Sorry

[The Magistrate]

35. Vast Majorities May Be Wrong, Mr. Soul

My own adherence to the principle that the people ought to rule does not include belief the mass will always prove correct, or wise.

My point was simply to illustrate a common dynamic within voting assemblies, that marks all such bodies to some degree. It is not wise, Sir, to overrate the sincerity of diplomats casting ballots, in what they perceive to be the best interests of their nation. To do so would be to give grave and undeserved insult to practitioners of the craft.

The key to this situation, Mr. Soul, remains its absolute insignifigance to the greatest proportion of the world.

[bluesoul]

37. And you believe that the vast majority is wrong

in case of Israel?

[The Magistrate]

40. In Some Instances, Mr. Soul, Yes

In others, no.

The great weakness of United Nations condemnation of Israel, in its bulk, is that it lays insufficient weight on many eggregious acts of the Arab Palestinian leadership and militant bodies, which not only constitute crimes of war, but make a substantial contribution to the continuance of the situation of bitter hostilities.

A second weakness of it is its very volume, by compare to the notice taken of other situations in the world, that affect many more people, and far more brutally, than this one does. It creates an impression of frivolousness, and dereliction of duty, in a world body, to take such disproportionate interest in this minor and unimportant matter.

[cantwealljustgetalong]

41. Abba Eban was apparently wrong when he said...

"If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions."

These days, it looks more like it would pass by a vote of 173 to 4 with 26 abstentions.

[Paschall]

9. The article says "Arabs" not "Muslim nations"

There are not 50 Arab states. (In fact, the most populous Muslim nations are not Arabic.)

And besides the UN has almost 200 member nations. Even if all the Muslim-majority nations (1) held Islam as their state religion (which they don't); and (2) voted as a bloc (which they don't either), they represent only about 25% of the UN membership... which, after all, seems pretty right on the money given there are 1 billion Muslims on the planet.

Granted, a quarter of the votes could "hold sway" at the UN in some circumstances. So the Malaysian PM's remarks on this count may indeed have some slight basis in reality. But, claiming Arabs have "taken over" the UN is sheer, unvarnished racism.

[Muddleoftheroad]

24. I chose his formulation

There are also a large number of Arab nations and also a voting bloc there. There is also a lot of crossover between the two.

[Paschall]

28. "A large number of Arab nations." Really?

The Arab League has 22 members. Slightly over 1/10th of the UN membership. And they do not form a unified bloc in UN voting.

Whether there is "crossover" with other Muslim nations is also quite beside the point.

The crux of the matter is that saying Arabs have "taken over" the UN is exactly like saying Jews "control the world."

I'm surprised you can't seem to recognize this racism, although it's staring you in the face.

[bluesoul]

30. Besides

when the only ones opposing certain resolutions are USA, Israel, and those two Islands, and all the rest are in favour, that's a hell lot more then just the Arab "bloc". More like the whole world except for 4 states...

[sushi]

47. Exactly

:)

[Muddleoftheroad]

44. Voting bloc

A voting bloc that can automatically deliver 1 in 10 member nations and has influence on another 30 or more is one hell of a bloc to overcome. Throw in the fact that many of those nations are oil producers and many OTHER nations in the UN are oil users and you have a damn powerful coalition.

[Paschall]

45. That's a diversion

The "western democracies," the EU, the ex-Soviet countries, the Mercusor nations... they all constitute blocs. All have at least 10 members and hold sway over many others.

You're still not addressing the racism of this editorial frankly.

If the writer had said the Black nations control the UN, or if she'd claimed Israel exerts dominant influence over the UN, I dare say you would have been all over the alert button.

Or are you really trying to claim there is an "Arab cabal" that controls the UN via oil?

If so, I think you should give us an overview.

And then you'll have to explain how such a "theory" varies from the anti-Semitic claims that Jews "control the world" through international finance.

[Saudade]

16. No wonder here

"Israel is out numbered in the Mideast and even more so in the UN and people here wonder why there are so many UN resolutions against Israel."

Most intelligent people don't "wonder" why there are so many UN resolution against Israel. It's because Israel continues to violate international law and standards of civilized behavior, obviously.

By the way, Israel isn't the only country "outnumbered in the UN." Every country is outnumbered in the UN, again obviously.

[Muddleoftheroad]

26. Not every nation IS outnumbered

Some belong to regional/reglious/ethnic voting blocs. All of Israel's neighbors fall into that category.

That power inequity explains a great deal. Like why Israel gets criticized for defending itself, but the Arab nations don't get much criticism for attacking, sponsoring terror or conquering a neighbor like, say, Lebanon.

[bluesoul]

27. Israel doesn't get critisized

for "defending" itself but for violating UN conventions, international law and making life impossible for Palestinians. Something you will obvisouly never understand..

[Paschall]

34. Yes, but Israel...

...has well-established peace agreements with Arab or Muslim-dominated states: Egypt, Jordan, and Turkey.

It also belongs to the European Union's 27-nation Euro-Mediterranean Partnership that includes (among her "neighbors"): Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Jordan, the Palestinian Authority, Lebanon, Syria, Turkey, Cyprus and Malta; and Libya with observer status.
http://europa.eu.int/comm/external_relations/euromed/index.htm

There are blocs and there are blocs. Israel is not without alliances.

[Muddleoftheroad]

42. Not to the same degree

The Arab bloc and the Muslim bloc might not always work together, but they work together against Israel to a large part. Yes, there are exceptions, especially Turkey from the Muslim bloc, but still few nations on earth are willing to piss off the oil-producing nations.

[Paschall]

46. "work together against Israel to a large part?"

The Arab and Muslim countries do not vote consistently as a bloc, nor do they vote consistently against Israel.

They cooperate most closely on issues that concern them as Arabs and/or Muslims--among them, the resolution of the Israeli occupation and Palestinian human rights.

This is a perfectly acceptable practice in a democratic institution like the UN. Israel would not face this opposition if she were more willing to address the concerns of these nations and those of the larger international community.

Again, this is a diversion. I'm still waiting for the "Sharon hard-liners" to speak to the issue of the anti-Arab racism in this editorial.

[GabysPoppy]

10. Have you read the posted article?

Ambassadors don't normally present resolutions at committee level, but since Israel had not presented one since 1978 (and that was withdrawn after the Syrians tied its future to negotiations with the PLO), it was a bit of a first. The Israeli resolution was a mirror copy of one sponsored by Egypt and passed (88-4, 58 abstentions) in the General Assembly three weeks earlier, underlining the need to protect the rights of Palestinian children.

That resolution was a bit of a first, too: no other group of children had been singled out for protection by the UN - not the child soldiers in Burundi, not the raped and mutilated girls and boys of the Congo, nor children in any other of the world's impoverished or warring nations. By tacit agreement, children have always been considered universally at the UN.

The delegates were polite as Ambassador Dan Gillerman spoke. He asked for security for Israeli, Palestinian and all children of the world. He spoke of a "false reality" that pretends one side has a monopoly on victim status. He wished, he said, to prevent the blatant exercise of a double-standard in the UN.

snip

A discussion followed. The Syrian delegate strenuously opposed assistance of Israeli children and said the resolution was procedurally wrong. The Palestinian Authority's lady complained that the Israelis had "copied" their resolution. The situation of Palestinian children was "unique" she said - which it may well be, since most children of the world are not used as human shields for terrorist camps or encouraged to be suicide bombers so their pictures can be put up in grocery stores as "martyrs".

It is as if British children in the Second World War had not been evacuated to the countryside but rather placed around the War Office and anti-aircraft embankments. Afterwards, the PA lady conferenced earnestly for 20 minutes with a French delegate over procedurally thwarting the Israeli resolution so it would not come to a vote. The bluebottle returned to the most heated part of the committee room.

snip

Copyright violation prohibits me from posting more. I might have selected other paragraphs myself for the initial posting, but it is assumed that most people would read the entire piece rather than the usual "knee-jerk" reaction to a headline which probably wasn't even chosen by the author. But then again, why am I surprised?

[Paschall]

11. Yes.

Why did you think I hadn't?

Oh, by the way, it is somewhat obvious from her use of the "bluebottle fly" metaphor that the writer is embroidering on facts which she herself cannot confirm.

For example, the "conferencing" between the Palestinian and French representatives. I'd bet my bottom dollar she was not privy to those conversations, and merely guessed as to their content.

[GabysPoppy]

12. Actually you are right, my bad

Which is why the only thing that outraged you enough to comment was the headline, probably written by a hack copyboy sitting in the office.

The balance of the piece would have been too hard to address.

[bluesoul]

13. The title alone is

very revealing in it's anti-Arab sentiments and agenda... Just like scrolling through some right-wing Fox&Corkum type of venom...

[Paschall]

14. Goodness! Did YOU read the article?

I did not comment on the headline, but commented only on the editorial's content, specifically this thought which was quoted: "...the Arabs have...taken over the very body that was responsible for this - the United Nations..."

ON EDIT: Oh, and in my post #ll, I gave you two further comments on the editorial's content. Maybe you should take a deep breath and try actually reading what's on the computer screen in front of you.

[legin]

15. Bleeaaach

Barbara Amiel, the fucking bosses wife, can't stand the woman. The Union4ever of the Daily Telegraph, full of that conviction that doesn't breath.

This is quite a mild article for her.

[legin]

17. Though

I think that Conrad Black has had to quit as head of Hollinger. So she isn't the bosses wife any more with luck.

[bluesoul]

18. Barbara Amiel

just googled her name. My oh my what an interesting person she is. The agenda and (RW) bias is so evident...

[drdon326]

19. yeah...union was great...

so's babs

[Paschall]

21. If you wanna call racism great

How can you call yourself a leftist, progressive or Democrat and tolerate this slop?

[bluesoul]

22. I can bet

that I/P has the record of RW sources posted by posters that take them seriously and as credible. I would understand as object of mockery, but this is beyond me. It seems to me that some jsut can't find any left wing source to back up their views so RW are the only ones left. Which does tell me something...

[Jim Sagle]

38. It says more about the left than it does about our cause.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Aidoneus]

36. easy:--he doesn't claim it

don't recall that coming up much..

[bluesoul]

20. The Telegraph is owned by the same people

that own JPost and some other RW newspapers..

[Character Assassin]

43. BFD. The UN is an ineffectual bad joke in most areas.

If I were an Israeli, I wouldn't exactly be quaking in my boots that Arabs have 'taken over' the UN.