Another 'honor' victim: Daughter, raped by brothers, killed by mother

[drdon326]

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/1114HonorKilling14-ON.html

Rofayda Qaoud - raped by her brothers and impregnated - refused to commit suicide, her mother recalls, even after she bought the unwed teenager a razor with which to slit her wrists. So Amira Abu Hanhan Qaoud says she did what she believes any good Palestinian parent would: restored her family's "honor" through murder.

Armed with a plastic bag, razor and wooden stick, Qaoud entered her sleeping daughter's room last Jan. 27. "Tonight you die, Rofayda," she told the girl, before wrapping the bag tightly around her head. Next, Qaoud sliced Rofayda's wrists, ignoring her muffled pleas of "No, mother, no!" After her daughter went limp, Qaoud struck her in the head with the stick.

Killing her sixth-born child took 20 minutes, Qaoud tells a visitor through a stream of tears and cigarettes that she smokes in rapid succession. "She killed me before I killed her," says the 43-year-old mother of nine. "I had to protect my children. This is the only way I could protect my family's honor."

The guilty brothers are in jail.

Qaoud's confessed crime, for which she must appear before a three-judge panel on Dec. 3, is one repeated almost weekly among Palestinians living in the West Bank, Gaza Strip and Israel. Female virtue and virginity define a family's reputation in Arab cultures, so it's women who are punished if that reputation is perceived as sullied.

...............................................................

apparently...they HAVE jails and they DO arrest people.

[WindRavenX]

1. Jesus

How horrible....

[redqueen]

2. Not just Arab cultures.

Check out India.

[Paschall]

19. It also happens in Asia and Africa.

I don't really see the relevance of this thread in I/P.

[Suzette]

96. It could happen anywhere, for that matter, but the

relevance in an I/P forum is certainly found in this sentence from the article referenced by the first poster here:

"So Amira Abu Hanhan Qaoud says she did what she believes any good Palestinian parent would: restored her family's "honor" through murder."

Perhaps it is a comment on that culture vs. the Israeli culture, but it struck me as relevant.

[Paschall]

117. Guidelines for discussion of Israeli/Palestinian affairs:

"...this is where you may discuss issues surrounding the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians."

Discussion of comparative culture I think belong elsewhere, if that was the intent.

[Paschall]

118. Dupe

[bluesoul]

3. As sad as it is

What is your point here Drdon?

[drdon326]

4. they HAVE jails and they DO arrest people.

when they want to.

[bluesoul]

5. Oh

I see (regarding arresting militants)

[drdon326]

6. Not militants.....

TERRORISTS !!

[Name removed]

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[el_gato]

7. and?

is this supposed to be another way to say
they should let the IDF bulldoze their homes?

[drdon326]

9. HUH ???

Isnt it a little early to be drinking??

Who said anything about bulldozing homes??

[JailBush]

11. Truth is Truth

She said what she said. It doesn't have to be interpreted as a right-wing argument in favor of bulldozing Palestinian homes. The Palestinians have just grievances against the West, but they also have some serious internal problems.

If we criticize Team Exxon for propping up Saddam Hussein, then prop up Muslims who torture women, we're just as hypocritical as Republicans.

[JailBush]

13. Oops... S/HE said!

I referred to drdon as "she," when drdon could be "he"!

[Gimel]

39. Depends

on what you mean by "honor". Some think it's an honor that children become suicide bombers. This sense of honor includes having to kill the daughters if they violate the cultural morals (or are the victims of such violation).

[Name removed]

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[bluesoul]

12. I too am afraid

that's the point some would like to make...

[drdon326]

15. No, my "point" is

they HAVE jails and they DO arrest people when they want to.

[Classical_Liberal]

17. Well then yu should also note these tidbits.

Victims' rights groups say the number of "honor crimes" appears to be climbing, but at the same time, getting little attention. Israelis and Palestinians are too busy with political and military issues to notice what they dismiss as domestic disputes, says Suad Abu-Dayyeh, who works for the Women's Center for Legal Aid and Counseling in East Jerusalem.

But the number of killings is likely higher, given that Palestinian police investigate only crimes that have been reported, said Yousef Tarifi, the Ramallah prosecutor assigned to Qaoud's case. Shalhoub-Kevorkian says her past research showed the likely number to be 15 times higher than the number of reported cases.

[Paschall]

18. Is the fact that the PA has jails really news to you?

Or are you just being snarky?

I guess you must have forgotten that the IDF bombed quite a few of the PA jails and police stations only a few months ago. I happen to remember it quite well because some of those facilities were funded by EU taxpayers. You need to start keeping notes.

[Name removed]

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[XanaDUer]

14. This makes me want to puke...

eom.

[rini]

20. Libertychick

this is real puke material, but women throughout most (not all) of the developing world are held in less estime than the cattle. Women are routinely mutilated, beaten, sold into slavery and killed. When I lived in Spain, women were just starting their version of NOW, all they wanted was to be able to have custody of their children. As American women we need to remember to be thankful to live where we live and in this time period.We also need to be aware and use our voting power to make sure our representatives know their jobs depend on their record on women's issues.

The fact that her own mother killed her is atrocious. I have no idea what the PA is doing to stop these atrocities? I know in Jordon it has become Queen Nor's issue.

[Jack Rabbit]

21. Statement by Queen Noor (1999) on Crimes of Honor

"Women" Press Releases

Crimes of Honor attracting national and international attention. Legal reform imminent.
Monday January 11, 1999

In the fall of 1998, two major United States television networks (CNN and ABC) began working a story on “honor killings” in Jordan. Among the people whom both networks interviewed were members of the Police Department’s Family Protection Unit, Jordan Times reporter Rana Husseini, Former President of the Jordanian Women’s Union Asma Khader, Head of the National Institute of Forensic Medicine Dr. Mo’men Hadidi as well as women who are in prison at Juweideh for their own protection and men who have committed honor killings. Her Majesty Queen Noor agreed to participate in this program a few weeks ago to contribute as balanced a perspective as possible, particularly with respect to Islamic and constitutional principles.
Queen Noor, in her interviews, affirmed that “this type of violence against women is not consistent with Islam or with our constitution … this area is being reviewed and amendments are being proposed to make these laws more consistent with Islamic law and the constitution.” She added that she has “very strong personal feelings as a Muslim, as a woman, as a wife and as a mother about this form of violence and every form of violence against women.” The Queen praised the efforts of the police department who have founded a Family Protection Unit adding that they are going to be “partners with the UNDP and UNIFEM and our Ministry of Social Development in establishing a women’s shelter that is geared to counsel, to rehabilitate and to protect women and their children who may be potential victims of these crimes. That is because they are very concerned that these crimes be prevented – that these women be given a chance for protection until the pressures are relieved on their family.” Queen Nor noted that His Majesty King Hussein in his 1997 opening address to parliament condemned violence against women saying that it was clearly not consistent with Islamic law and the spirit of our constitution, which since 1952 has guaranteed equality before the law for men and women in the country. She added that the King “as a Muslim has made that commitment and as a head of state and head of the larger Jordanian family.”

Read more.

[Name removed]

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[Lithos]

23. I was going to lock this thread

However, I decided that Queen Noor's comments here are very worthy of discussion.

There has been some very real strides made to improve the lot of women. The fairly recent trials in Pakistan over an "honor" rape were also a good sign.

[drdon326]

24. Before you lock this....

certainly honor killings is one issue.

the issue i have raised is the fact that the 2 brothers
were ARRESTED and serving time in JAIL.

so the excuse of not arresting terrorists because of no jails
and no legal system is bull.

They simply dont want to arrest terrorists.

[Lithos]

26. Ask yourself the following questions

Why hasn't the US been able to arrest/capture Saddam Hussein? We obviously are arresting people and putting them in jail, but for some reason not able to even locate Saddam?

The second one, why haven't we here in the US been able to arrest/capture the Anthrax mailer?

L-

[drdon326]

27. whoa...

youre comparing isolated individuals against groups
of terrorists.

And , for better or worse, the US is TRYING to capture
those 2 people. I do not believe for 1 second the PA
has any intention to try to capture one terrorist.

[Paschall]

36. Huh?

You mean Osama is not connected with a terrorist group? Or Saddam does not have henchmen and loyalists doing his bidding? And shouldn't it be easier to capture an isolated individual than round up an entire network of terrorists? You're contradicting your own argument.

And you know full well that "arresting" Osama and Saddam means capturing/halting the action of the groups with which they are associated.

In other words, Lithos is not comparing "individuals" and "groups." The problem in all these cases is the same. So his point is perfectly valid.

[Lithos]

46. These individuals

At least Saddam and the Ba'athist hold outs are supported to some degree by the local population which makes it very difficult to find and/or arrest them.

The same was true about the bomber at the Atlanta Olympics who was only just recently arrested by pure coincedence. He spent many years hiding out from a massive manhunt. How? He had a small group of supporters who tipped him off whenever the net was closing in.

If you want closer examples, how about the Basque separatists? The Mafia in Italy, the Corsican Mafia, the Greek Nov. 17th group? Generally the only success the police have had has been through luck.

The point I am making is that if a small percentage of the local population is for something, then the police will have a difficult time of enforcing it.

In the case of the PA, they suffer other problems including lack of training, lack of supplies and as you have pointed out, a lack of direction from their leadership. But even if these were corrected, they would still be largely ineffectual against the terrorist threat.

L-

[drdon326]

51. Agree...

"The point I am making is that if a small percentage of the local population is for something, then the police will have a difficult time of enforcing it."

unfortunately, as has been posted, 62-75% of the palestinian
population supports suicide bombings.

But honestly...do you REALLY think the PA and the police want
to capture even one terrorist??

[Lithos]

53. Some do

But I think that the PA police is incapable of doing it as their hands are tied politically. But even if they wanted to do it, they would be unable.

The solution is a political one, not one for the police.

L-

[Jim Sagle]

32. Because the Bush gang SPREAD the anthrax.

[rini]

33. However

we did capture Timothy McVeigh, Oswald, the uniBomber, the man (name escapes me) who bombed the women's clinic etc. Some sooner than others but it happened because we looked. Now we are a huge country, lots of places to hide; the PA has a smaller area to govern, much smaller; if Arafat wanted it done, the bombings would stop and the perps arrested.

[Paschall]

35. Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Iraq...

...are all much smaller than the US, too. Much smaller. Yet, Osama, Mullah Omar, and Saddam are all still at large.

Comparing arrest records like this is absurd.

Also assuming Arafat can act effectively against Palestinian terror is--at least according to one observer--perhaps vastly overestimating his real power.

Why did Sharon bomb PA police stations and police infrastructure?

[Muddleoftheroad]

37. Why?

To punish the PA for doing nothing about terror. To punish the PA for facilitating terror.

[Paschall]

42. Really?

Got a link explaining specifically why PA police stations were targetted by the IDF?

Do you normally expect an authority to bomb or destroy a police station because its officers aren't living up to your standards of good performance?

[Muddleoftheroad]

47. Cause and effect

Hmmmm, terrorist attacks occur, Israel responds by bombing PA infrastructure. I think that works for me as explanation.

And, how Israel responds as a sovereign nation is its choice when threatened.

[Paschall]

49. Cause and effect may work as an explanation in physics

But in human affairs it's not so clear cut. God-given free will and all.

No link supporting your claim regarding "punishment for supporting terrorists?" Hmmm...

You're long on bla-bla and short on data today, Muddle.

[Muddleoftheroad]

58. Would you like a link to every time Israel attacked a PA police station?

If so, too bad.

I don't see anybody but you here claiming that they are not punitive actions that follow directly after terror attacks.

[Paschall]

59. Not surprising

I'm apparently the only one here interested in the subject, which is perhaps only natural since some of my EU taxes went up in smoke when the IDF struck those police stations. But I did not claim "that they are not punitive actions."

What I'd like is a link to a statement from the Israeli government explaining the purpose of such raids on PA police stations. What precisely were they supposed to accomplish? A show of force? Punishment? It seems to me one of their primary consequences was to weaken the authority of the PA and its real ability to take action (1) against terror attacks and (2) to protect Palestinian citizens.

I'd like to know how the GOI justified these actions, given their contradictory effects.

Since you seem to be so knowledgeable with regard to the rationale of the GOI, I thought you could provide this data.

[edzontar]

61. Let me help out here, adopting a line from Mussolini

"The GOI ha sempre ragione."


That is---"The government of Israel is always right."

(My head is hurting from that wooden post!!!)

[rini]

76. what you wrote is a-historical!

There was no Israel at the time of Musselini! If there had been are you saying an amoral meglamanic dictator would endorse a progressive, democracy?

[edzontar]

77. You miss the point-utterly....

I was havng fun with the LINE--"ha sempre ragione""---what i said is--some people think the Government of Israel is "Always Right" (as Mussolini proclaimed himself)--which is, as I inferred, by transferral--a Fascistic line of thought.

Clear now?

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[drdon326]

86. Well....

" I refuse to abandon this space to sophistry and intolerance."

lol

youre off to slow start.

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[Paschall]

120. drdon326

Who has said that the PA is not arresting terrorists because it doesn't "have jails and a legal system?"

You're the only person here who's ever made that claim.

If the PA is using that as an "excuse" for not arresting terrorists, can you provide as a link to a credible news source reporting such?

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[edzontar]

105. Gaby-please--no thinking person could have mis-understood...

My post--I used a line from Fascist propaganda to show--in a way I thought might be construed as "amusing"--that some people seem to argue that Israel's Goverment can do no wrong....

The poor person who jumped at me for being "a-historical" must not have read the post carefully.

Surely YOU understood it--and even if you think its a little flip, you might have admitted that at some point before digressing into this pointless exchange--which IMHO borders on deliberate and opportunistic misrepresentation of my position.

This is far less than I would normally expect from you.

[edzontar]

107. Did you read the post and the response?

The person clearly did not "get" it--I thought i was being rather polite by responding to it so clearly.

Why are you trying to extend and exploit this obvious misunderstanding (?) might be a better question...?

[Paschall]

121. I've not seen that edzontar has "continually" had to restate his posts

I have absolutely no problem understanding them. And certainly never had to ask him for a clarification.

[rini]

38. arrests

When the inhabitants of a region do not want "one of their own" captured, he won't be. At least not by outsiders.

[Paschall]

43. So is it "inhabitants" or Arafat?

Do you have any experience in police work in occupied territories? I'm wondering how you can be so certain of this.

And how do you explain the fact that hundreds of "their own" have been captured by outsiders, specifically US or "coalition" forces? Were all these guys handed over by their "fellow inhabitants?" That's not what I've understood from the stories I've been reading.

In fact, prior to the invasion of Afghanistan the Taliban offered to hand over bin Laden to the US and Shrub refused. :eyes:

[bemildred]

29. I don't want to pick an argument.

I agree with you. I don't think that Brother Arafat is
interested in stopping the terrorists, rather the contrary.
I don't understand why you think that is in dispute.

That does seem to be a separate issue from the appearance that
the PA is also an ineffectual and corrupt organization, and
cannot be expected to do a very good job of dismantling the terrorist
networks, even if they wanted to.

The issues with rape and honor killings are the same as with
slavery, it is the same thing in my mind, people are not property;
and it needs to be dealt with in the same way, severe but
dispassionate.

[Paschall]

34. Got a link on that, drdon326?

When has the Palestinian Authority claimed they were not arresting terrorists "because they had no jails and no legal system?"

Those things--no jails and no legal system--might be valid arguments. But how do you jibe that with the fact that the greatest limitation on PA police authority in recent months has been the purposeful bombing of PA police stations and infrastructure? In one case I believe, massive amounts of PA data were destroyed when PA police offices were targetted by the IDF. You think Sharon's government is trying to give the PA an excuse for not arresting terrorists? That doesn't make much sense, does it?

[drdon326]

25. Queen Noor....

is correct. The oppression of women in many countries
and the horror of honor killings offends good people
everywhere.

How the hell does a mother kill her own child....

[Jack Rabbit]

28. Attitudes about rape

Attitudes about rape are something I've always had difficulty with. As you may know, in ancient Rome a rape victim was expected to commit suicide. It was the honorable thing to do, or so they thought.

In many cultures, especially one where a premium is put on a young lady's virginity, a rape victim is at risk for the same fate this girl suffered. Other cultures may have other ways of sactionaling a rape victim.

It's seems to be a blame-the-victim mentality taken to an extreme.

[edzontar]

30. Although the Queen Noor comments were interesting,

I fail to see the point of this thread.

Is it that horrible crimes and/or repressive traditions (or both) persist in the Palestinian and/or Arabic world?

That the PA has jails?

Or was it to make yet another spurious argument that the Palestinian people are uniquely evil or uncivilized and thus "deserve" their present disenfranchised status?

My guess would be some combination of the above, but it is the latter motive----which I infer from the placement of this post in I/P, that disturbs me.

[Gimel]

40. Antiquated punishments

Punishing the victim should be irradicated through education. A cultural clash exists in the ME within cultures and with the west. The terrorists strike western targets (Istanbul) all who accept western ideas or modern cultural norms. The clash between Israel and the Palestinians is part of this cutural conflict.

[edzontar]

41. This is simplistic....there are many Westernized Muslims...

Who oppose terrorism and likewise oppose the present policies of the Israeli occupation.

I do too, and I am not anti-Western or anti-Israel.

When you frame things in black and white terms like this, you run the risk of obcsuring the complexity of the situation.

[Paschall]

44. Not to mention that some of the most prominent...

...Palestinians were educated in the West. And at least one--Dr. Hanan Ashrawi--is not even a Muslim.

Cultural clash? I don't think so.

[edzontar]

48. Thank you---and you know something?

I wonder why we even have to MAKE these arguments here?

These threads are posted with an obvious agenda, and so eventually some of us come along to argue for a more nuanced, complex view, and just end up locked in flame wars with people who post the same tired arguments over and over and over.

Arabs are evil, Islam is evil, its all their fault, its a clash of civilizations, anyone who criticizes Israeli policies is anti-Semitic, Arabs can smell each other, the Settlements are for protection, blah blah bah.....

It is like arguing with a post, sometimes.

Why, tell me, why do we bother?

[Paschall]

50. Personally, I bother...

...because I refuse to abandon this space to sophistry and intolerance.

But you're right about it being like arguing with a post. A lot of the time. ;-)

[edzontar]

52. You are right, of course....

But ah gets weary sometimes, ya know?

[Paschall]

54. Yup!

Have a cold one on me to lift your spirits! :beer: Or if you prefer, we can make it a frosty mug of root beer. Yumm! :toast:

[edzontar]

55. Will do--but ain't it a bit early in the week?

Maybe the British protests against the EVIL ONE will cheer me up....

[Paschall]

56. It can't be too early in the week...

...if it's late enough in the day. And it's 7:30 PM where I am; just in time for apéritifs!

Yeah, I think the Brits are gonna give us quite a show. Can't wait.

[edzontar]

57. Are you in Europe?

I have lived in the UK and in Italy.

Wish i was over there now,

[Paschall]

60. Yes

Greenwich +1

At this particular moment, despite the allure of the Bush Does Britain hoopla, Italy sounds very appealing. Gotta be warmer there than here at home. Where were you living?

[edzontar]

62. London and Rome

I lived in London for about a year as a kid--aged 8.

My Dad was on sabbatical, 1961-62, in pre-Beatles, pre-Profumo,...the old gloomy post-war MacMilian London.

I loved it.

We lived in Golder's Green. a lovely mostly Jewish suburb just up from Hampstead Heath.

We also traveled all over Europe that summer, including three weeks (!) on Capri, where my dad put his manuscript together.


Heaven on earth.


I lived with my wife in Rome for 2 years from 1993-1995, on a doctoral fellowship. Art History. I go back every chance I get.

We got to meet Hilary Clinton while i was there, and attended a Bill clinton event on the Campidoglio honoring the 50th anniversary of the liberation of Rome.

I felt proud to be an American then.

Not so much, now.

[Paschall]

65. Wow, world capitals and Hillary and Bill to boot!

If you come through Paris you'll have to give me a shout. I'm near a large Indochinese neighborhood, with a sprinkling of orthodox Jews and Muslims. Halal, Mandarin, Kosher, Pho, Halal, Mandarin, Kosher, Pho. Kinda fun.

[edzontar]

68. Is this Marais?

That is my favorite section of Paris--the Jewish-Moroccan and everythng else district!!!

Oh the food!!!!

Oh the drinks!!!

Oh the street-life!!

Paris--now THERE is a city (I was just there in June)

[Paschall]

73. No, I'm not in the center

Out near the Bibliothèque Nationale François Mitterand and the Seine. Much calmer and greener than the city center. Lots of cool new architecture, even a few Le Corbusier buildings, not forgetting a little gemlette by Frank Gehry.

Used to be in the center, near the Sentier, in the old Cour des Miracles just north of Les Halles. Some great street/night life there, too, but it's become somewhat gentrified. I would love to have seen it when Les Halles were still in operation.

[edzontar]

74. I don't know that area all that well....

I have used the "old" Bibliotheque at Richelieu a number of times--I may have been out in that direction once to visit a friend, but I would not remember the way...

[Paschall]

75. Yes, it's still kind of off the beaten path

About 10-12 years ago, the city launched a huge urban renewal project in that part of town and it's still not completed. The largest project of its kind since Haussmann.

On the Rive Droite, the old Bercy wine depot, that dated from at least the Middle Ages, has been transformed into the vast and very lovely Yitzak Rabin Garden.

On the Rive Gauche, acres and acres of train tracks feeding into the Gare d'Austerlitz are being covered with a concrete roof, and being built over. Several old industrial buildings along the Seine are also being renovated and converted into a new campus for the Université de Paris. I forget now which collections have been moved from the Richelieu site to the Mitterand library, but I think only very off-size and extremely rare material is still being stored at Richelieu. Meanwhile the city has inaugurated a new, conductorless and "higher speed" metro line (called Météore) that currently runs from Mitterand to the Opéra. And construction of our first tramway, which will eventually run entirely around Paris, began last summer along the southern edge of this Rive Gauche project.

I've tried to find some pics on line to show you; not very successful. But if you're interested, here is the official municipal site on the project. Several dozen buildings are currently being completed, so I doubt the photos here are up to date.

http://www.parisrivegauche.com/

[Jim Sagle]

90. Get a room, you two.

[bluesoul]

95. Sure better reading them

then your constant "ain't nuthin but ...." diatribe...

[rini]

119. IYO

n/t

[edzontar]

103. OK-want to join us?

Seriously--this was one thread that DESERVED hijacking....

I am proud to have made a friend here--no wisecracks please--which at least is something positive on the hate-spewed thread.

Vive la France!!!!

[Paschall]

104. Seems like an adult response to me, too

When no rational, civil discourse is possible at a party, it's not unreasonable to turn your back on the offenders and enjoy the evening in any way you can with like-minded folks.

:toast: (Well, it's not quite that time yet. ;-))

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[bluesoul]

124. They never stop

with those accusations as absurd as they are here. Ah well...

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[edzontar]

126. Please note that my attempts to defend myself have been deleted.

nt

[Gimel]

69. Where did I say all Palestinians?

This problem of honor killings, might also have existed in western tradition, as a poster pointed out.

Rereading my post, I don't see any generalizations that would preclude the achievements of some, some of the more enlightened leaders. Dr. Ashrawi has been well received in Israel also, at least before she refused to condemn suicide attacks on citizens of Israel.

I didn't mention the Moslem religion, so that comment seems irrelevant also.

The clash is there, but the eye of the beholder is important it seems, as to how it's viewed.

The attacks on Israelis as taken for granted as necessary by a majority of Palestinians, according to opinion polls, is an indication of the tolerance for violence.

Edited: to eliminated a useless letter

[bluesoul]

70. Tolerance for

politicians like Sharon and the extreme right wing is no less dangerous in Israel among its people. It seems it's has majority approval...

[GabysPoppy]

71. Your use of the word majority

shows your total lack of understanding of politics in Israel.

[Darranar]

72. Never mind.

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[Paschall]

98. Hold onto your crêpes, Suzette!

Before you start throwing insults around, you need to understand how things work here.

You'll notice there's a line of red type in Darranar's post that says the post was "edited."

Undoubtedly Darranar made a comment then changed his mind, and chose to edit out--eliminate--that comment. Hence "never mind." (It's not possible for members of DU to completely eliminate all trace of a comment once it's gone on-line.)

Please refrain from hysteria until you've learned your way around the kitchen.

[bluesoul]

99. New on board

and already making such accusations. Interesting...

[Name removed]

100. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Suzette]

101. My Queendom for a Delete Button!

:hi:

[Lurking Dem]

45. That would be the "clash" part

of her discussion.

It is a clash between extreme fundamentalism and modernism.

That is why so many were so quick to blame outsiders for what happened in Istanbul. None of the Sephardim could imagine Turkish Muslims doing such a thing.

[Muddleoftheroad]

63. The story

Focusing on the actual story for a second:

* Can anyone here rationalize the minor sentence for honor crimes?
* Can anyone explain how the hell EITHER crime could happen in ANY society. (No, I am NOT indicting the Palestinians. Sick shit happens everywhere, but family rape and family murder are beyond my ability to grasp.)
* Can anyone explain how other family members could deal with any of the people involved?

I am being honest here and I just don't get it. If a family member of mine did either crime, the cops would be after ME for how I reacted.

[Jack Rabbit]

66. Honor Crimes

* No.
* No.
* That would depend on the indiviudal situation.

Do you remember the film Divorce, Italian Style?

[edzontar]

67. You won't get a defense of this from me.....but....

As for an explanation--this lies in the realm of human culture--sociology or anthropology if you will.

The notion that the status--let us call it the "intact" status--of the female in a family was/is a matter of familial and social "honor"--is intimately bound up with issues of family and social exchange that go back very far into history and pregistory in the region---and versions of it appear in the cultures of Greece, Rome, North Africa, spain etc...sometimes this is called the Mediterranean "honor and shame" culture (I read it somewhere).

But we have versions of it in the ME and in Africa and probably other places I know nothing about.

The idea that women are defined by their "virginal" status before marraige is a really old, horrible aspect of the woman-as-commodity of exchange theme and you can see it in Ireland, too, in the traditon of sending "fallen" women to the Magdalen Sisters for a lifetime of slavery in their laundries.

That is to say, there is nothing especially unique about the horrible incident above--humans have been and continue to do terrible things to their own flesh and blood as part of social systems of "honor."

Humans are inhuman--and inhumanity knows no borders--historic, ethnic. religious, or otherwise.

At least Queen Noor is trying to do something about it.

[BlackFrancis]

92. All started with that famous Muslim Virginous

and his other Muslim saint daughter Virginia, cannonized in many places including the Quaranic text "The Canterbury Tales".

Don't know what the fuck is up with those Muslims and I'm damn sure nothing like this happens in Christian trailer parks :eyes:

[Suzette]

108. Since you brought up Christian trailer parks,

could you please site cases from the Bible where honor must be restored to a family through murdering a raped girl/woman?

[edzontar]

109. Nothing against Christians or the Bible...

But there is plenty of miserable, sexist, murderous stuff in that book--like killing all the inhabitants of Philistine cities---including the women and children, Abraham taking a slave as concubine to have children, then kicking her out when the wife finally got pregnant, etc...

[Suzette]

112. You are correct; which might explain why I'm not religious!

However, I did find this:


His voice on the subject of rape is quite clear Deuteronomy :25 "But if out in the country a man happens to meet a girl pledged to be
married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die.

22:26 Do nothing to the girl for she has committed no sin deserving death")


http://www.hopeforhealing.org/faq.html

[BlackFrancis]

110. can you find anything in Islam?

[Suzette]

111. I've not done a search on any holy book

and so I will simply post this:

Jordan is only one of many Islamic countries where the evil practice of "Honour Killing" of women is still performed, but the reason why we have singled out Jordan, in particular, is because in that so-called "civilised" country, with a Royal Family which is held in high esteem world-wide, this diabolical, male chauvinistic custom is legalised! One of the most dishonourable ways to treat a woman is to rape her but it is utterly abhorrent when that innocent victim is "legally" killed for a crime she did not commit. Not only that, but a girl who is the victim of incest, may be killed by a family member, even the perpetrator of the crime, with impunity, to save the "honour" of that family. In rare cases, the killers may receive a mild sentence - a mere slap on the wrist - but no cases have been recorded where the murderers have received a life-sentence or the death penalty which is imposed for crimes of far less magnitude.


http://www.webspawner.com/users/JordanWomen/

[BlackFrancis]

113. Still happens here

it's covered under "crimes of passion". Not to the extent that it is in Latin America but it does and it's treated differently than straight up pre-meditated murder.

Dowry deaths still happen all over the world in any place that still practices dowry.

In the context of this forum 70% of murdered women in Israel aren't killed by suicide bombs but by family members. This number is comparable to America.

Remove the mote from thine own eye, I know it says that in the bible.

[Lithos]

127. Locking

The tone and conversation has distinctly strayed from the original topic.

Lithos
FA/NS Moderator
Democratic Underground