Dear Helen Thomas, we Jews aren't getting the hell out of anywhere anymore

[Fozzledick]

Here’s the thing. I’ve been thinking about poor Helen Thomas, who I believe was probably just saying what everyone thinks and has therefore been made a scapegoat. Not that I really care, because we ought to share the scapegoat status once in a while. It’s the least we can do to dispel the stereotype that we are stingy, us irritating Jews.

...

Helen, you know why we were in Germany and much of Eastern Europe in the first place? And by the way, if I follow your advice, do you think the nice old ladies who got my grandmothers’ large houses and farms from the Nazis in what was once Czechoslovakia will kick the property back two generations? That would be cool because I’d love a vineyard and an agricultural estate.

Well, we were in Germany and Hungary and Czechoslovakia and Russia (where we were regularly just plain killed by Cossacks), and also, for many centuries, Poland (ditto), because we were told to get the hell out of England, France, and Spain. Or, you know, just plain killed by handsome and heroic fairytale knights.

And you know why we were in Western Europe to begin with? Because we were told by the Greeks and the Romans - wait for it - to get the hell out of “Palestine,” where we had been living since the beginning of recorded history.

...

So here’s the thing: We are not going anywhere this time, Helen. We totally get it: Ya’ll pretty much hate us. It’s just the way it is, like a natural law. Nothing we can do - not giving away pieces of the land, not donating billions to charity, nor discovering a cure for polio or the Theory of Relativity, or writing revered legal and religious texts, or founding Google and Facebook, or manufacturing the microprocessor in the majority of laptops that spew Jew hatred onto the Internet, or founding Christianity itself, or championing women’s rights and gay rights in the U.S. and helping to bring about a human rights revolution in America in the '60s. None of those things will absolve us of our real sin: Existing and overcoming.

But this time, seriously. Getting the hell out is not in the cards. We’re just sick of moving all the time. I know. Irritating.

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/dear-helen-thomas-we-jews-aren-t-getting-the-hell-out-of-anywhere-anymore-1.295308

[Oregone]

1. This author confuses Jews with the nation of Israel

Nothing we can do - not giving away pieces of the land, not donating billions to charity, nor discovering a cure for polio or the Theory of Relativity, or writing revered legal and religious texts, or founding Google and Facebook, or manufacturing the microprocessor in the majority of laptops that spew Jew hatred onto the Internet, or founding Christianity itself, or championing women’s rights and gay rights in the U.S. and helping to bring about a human rights revolution in America in the '60s

Wowzer. Israelis did all that?!?

[JuniperLea]

5. Many at DU make that same error in distinction...

But... can we now blame Christianity on them? Because that would be... weird... and convenient.

[Oregone]

8. LOL

[EFerrari]

11. LOL

[Fozzledick]

15. I blame Constantine

Christianity was a lot more spiritual and less dogmatic before he forcibly assimilated it into the official Roman state religion, but that's a whole other story.

[JuniperLea]

19. I love spiritual people...

But religious people scare the hell out of me.

[Ken Burch]

169. I blame Paul...he was the one who brought all the weird sexual uptightness into it.

That's why Gore Vidal had to write a novel about him.

(And why Christopher Hitchens, before he was captured by the Dark Side, described insitutional Christianity as "Christism-Paulism", making the parallel between what Paul did to Christ's message and what Lenin(and Stalin, who coined the term "Marxism-Leninism" did to the liberatory words of Marx).

[Fozzledick]

7. Who was Helen Thomas addressing?

Did she say "Israelis" should get the hell out of "Palestine" or was she more general?

[Oregone]

12. She was specifically talking about the people who are occupying Palestine

Now...Im pretty sure those people are Israelis (though the questioner used the term "Jews").

Ever heard of a Venn diagram? I think you can work this one out. Logic says its pretty tough for a Jew in New York City to pick up and leave Palestine and go home, so she probably wasn't addressing him.

:rofl:

[JuniperLea]

17. There's that confusion again!

Every time you criticize a country, someone will smack you down and call you names for criticizing a religious group.

Silly, isn't it?

[FBI_Un_Sub]

51. Prior to 1948

the residents of the subject area, Jews, Muslims, Christians, Bahai, Zorastrians, etc. were all called "Palestinians" by the UK Colonial Office. My father-in-law's (UK) Passport lists him as "Palestinian."

[DemocratSinceBirth]

55. Who Gave Sykes And Picot The Right To Determine Which People Belong To Which Land?

~

[Recursion]

62. Allenby and Foch NT

[azurnoir]

31. And just who are the non-Arabs living in Palestine?

I want actual demographics

oh this answer out to be good

[Recursion]

64. Right now? And what do you mean by "Palestine"?

If you're talking about "non-Arabs living in the areas more or less set aside by UN Resolution 242 for a future Palestinian state", there's about half a million Israeli settlers there.

[azurnoir]

75. well actually there are about 225,000 in the West Bank

and about 275,000 in Jerusalem but yes I and IMO Helen Thomas reference to Palestine meant the West Bank and Gaza or what is generally accepted as the future Palestinian state, Jerusalem is kind of left out as separate issue and a good deal of those Jews or Settlers living in the West Bank were not born in Israel but keep in mind she never said Jews or Israel what amazes me is how many here seem to think Israel and Palestine are still the same place

[Recursion]

78. Well, in fairness Hamas thinks that too

what amazes me is how many here seem to think Israel and Palestine are still the same place

The obsession among both some Palestinians and some Israelis with the idea that there must be only one country in that area will be a self-fulfilling prophecy, to everyone's dismay.

[azurnoir]

92. There should 2 countries IMO n/t

[Recursion]

102. I would have liked that. But the Israelis and Palestinians seem not to

or at least, they vote for people who seem not to. And anyways, I think the time in which that is possible may have passed.

[Raksha]

149. I agree with you that the time for a two-state solution has passed.

I can see the two-state solution as, at best, a transitional stage. As I said on another forum, I believe Israel has reached the crossroads where a democratic Jewish state is no longer a possibility. EITHER it will be Jewish and fascist/apartheid OR it will be democratic and multicultural (one state, but no longer a Jewish state).

What do you think?

[CTLawGuy]

168. here's the exchange

Rabbi David Nesenoff: Any comments on Israel. We’re asking everybody today for any comments...

http://kydem.blogspot.com/2010/06/reaction-to-helen-thomas-and-her-anti.html


"Rabbi David Nesenoff: Any comments on Israel. We’re asking everybody today for any comments...

Thomas: Tell em to get the hell out of Palestine.

Rabbi: Whoaa.

Thomas: (laughing)

Rabbi: Any better comments?

Thomas: Remember these people are occupied and it’s their land. It’s not German; it’s not Poland.

Rabbi: So where should they go? What should they do?

Thomas: They can go home?

Rabbi: Where’s home?

Thomas: Poland, Germany.

Rabbi: So you’re saying Jews should go back to Poland and Germany?

Thomas: And America and everywhere else."

(bolding mine, bracketed statement mine).

[DrDan]

2. unfortunately unrec does not work here . . . . so UNREC

[Fozzledick]

3. Thanks for the kick!

:evilgrin:

[davidinalameda]

4. we can blame teh Jews for Facebook

cool

:sarcasm:

and by the way, what the OP is saying that if it weren't for the Greeks and the Romans, the Jews would have never left Palestine

at least that's what I'm getting out of it

[Oregone]

6. But you can't blame them for the Gaza siege

Israel did that

[Fozzledick]

25. Actually, if it weren't for the Romans, there would never have been a "Palestine"

The Romans invented the word "Palestine" as a euphemism for Judea when they got tired of the constant rebellions and tried to literally wipe it off the map. It's actually a latinization of "land of the Philistines", a Hebrew word meaning "foreign invaders" and applied to a group that entered Canaan from the north. Some historians believe they were refugees from the fall of Troy. Maybe we can blame them, the damn Trojans!:evilgrin:

[davidinalameda]

68. I'm sure that some parents blame Trojans

the condemns not the warriors

[Ken Burch]

173. "the condemns"?

That's one hell of a Freudian slip.

[EFerrari]

9. Whoppers on wheels.

lol

[DemocratSinceBirth]

14. He Conflated Jews With Israelis

But he was spot on in enumerating the contributions of Jews to society. They are less than one percent of the population but garner more than twenty percent of the Nobel Prizes awarded.

[Oregone]

20. Which leaves me confused....

Why a nation comprised of an ethnic group of people who have contributed so much...could be so wrong? Its nonsensical.

[JuniperLea]

21. I have Christian cousins living in Israel...

They've lived there for a decade now, and consider Israel their home. I think they would be interested in knowing how their religious beliefs are being changed for them, like diapers.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

22. I Think Both Sides Have Legitimate Grievances And Compelling Narratives

~

[Oregone]

24. Oh yes, definitely

Though, one side seems to be disproportionally contributing to the injustices in the area


Disclaimer: In My Opinion :)

[Raksha]

100. It's because the psychopaths are currently in charge,

and they control the propaganda machine that has most of Israeli society brainwashed. There is no other word for it.

But many Jewish and Israeli intellectuals have not lost either their brains or their moral compass. Read Amos Oz, Uri Avnery, David Grossman and of course Noam Chomsky for starters. They will restore your faith in Jewish intelligence.

Re "Why a nation comprised of an ethnic group of people who have contributed so much...could be so wrong? Its nonsensical."

[Ken Burch]

174. And that is a proud achievement.

But it doesn't justify what Israel has done to the Palestinians, since Palestinians were NOT responsible for the centuries of EUROPEAN antisemitism that led to the founding of the Zionist movement.

Please accept this fact:

People who support a Palestinian state do NOT do so out of hatred or disrespect for Jews. And the survival of Judaism does not depend on Palestinians being denied a state.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

10. Don't See The Efficacy Of Suggesting Second And Third Generation Israelis To Move Back To Europe

Or an America which they were never from.

[JuniperLea]

13. Agreed... and I feel the same about Palestine...

Home is home.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

18. There Needs To Be Some Accommodation On Both Sides

But to suggest some man or woman whose parents and grandparents were born in Israel to move back to Europe is stupid. Israel is sixty two years old. Most of the people who live there were born there.

[JuniperLea]

23. I totally agree... and Helen was wrong... very, very off base...

And she has been condemned by the right, the left, and everyone else. I've not seen one person on DU disagree with that.

Yet some cannot let it go... convenient sacrificial lamb.

I think both sides can live in peace... if they can get the politicians out of their homes and lives.

[CTLawGuy]

170. I have read on DU that

"she has nothing to apologize for."

[provis99]

27. so if a thief stays in someone else's house long enough, they get to keep it.

that's basically your argument.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

52. See Twenty Nine

The "thieves" are mostly dead. Israel is sixty two years old. The majority of Israelis were born there. How far back do you go to right an alleged wrong?

And repatriating second and third generation Israelis would be no more practical or equitable than repatriating American, Australian, Canadian, et cetera thieves back to their native lands.

I think to set an example every non-Mexican Californian, Arizonan, and Texan family should repatriate to their ancestral homeland and give their home to a deserving Mexican family.

I have some questions.

How is this forced repatriation going to work?

And what about the majority of Israelis who hale from nominally Muslim countries such as Morocco, Tunisia, Iraq, Egypt, Syria, et cetera. Are they to be repatriated and who will be the guarantor of their safety? You know the ones who were run out of their countries where they lived for generations with nothing more than the clothes on their backs because of the hostility generated by the birth of Israel, a birth they had little to do with.

[lumpy]

166. It isn't going to happen.

Dumb subject. Even Helen knows that; she was just blowing off steam.

[Ken Burch]

176. "How far back do you go to right an alleged wrong?"

At a bare minimum, you admit that Palestinians were victims of a great injustice in 1948. That it was wrong to drive 750,000 of them out of their homes.

Admitting this does NOT mean dismantling the State of Israel.

It means that state(and the U.S., because we backed that state to the hilt)provides massive compensation to Palestinians, that a Truth and Reconciliation Commission needs to be established, that The Nakba be taught about in Israeli schools as the Holocaust should be taught in Palestinian ones.

It means that the settlements go away, unless at a bare minimum their inhabitants agree to compensate the Palestinians for land theft and apologize for treating them as inferiors and barbarians.

It means that The Palestinians THEMSELVES must be given absolute control of their water supply, and that there must never be any efforts at any time on the part of Israel to sabotage the Palestinian economy or to prevent a Palestinian state from succeeding.

It means that all discrimination and mistreatment of Israeli Arabs has to end NOW, and apologies and compensation need to be made for past mistreatment.

None of these changes would harm or endanger Israelis in the slightest.

[CTLawGuy]

171. well usually a thief is arrested and put in jail

so are YOU saying that the Jews should all be "arrested" and put into "jail"?

I think someone may have already tried to do that....

[LeftishBrit]

29. Agree - and two further points:

(1) There were Jewish areas of Israel long *before* it became a state.

(2) Many Israeli Jews are of recent Middle Eastern descent and have never had any connection to Europe.

[Recursion]

65. Yes, but at least for a while there was a "pipeline"

A friend of mine from Bethlehem put it that way: "This is the only land around here with no oil. But we do have a pipeline: from Russia to Hebron." The olehim (olim? I always get plurals wrong) are significantly overrepresented in the settlements.

[Ken Burch]

177. These are true points.

It is also true that, historically

1)Palestinian Arabs co-existed with the Mizrahi far better than European Christians did with the Askenazim or Sephardim.

2)Before 1948, almost no Mizrahi in other areas of the Middle East even WANTED to move to what became Israel. Some series of events(which need to be the subject of an independent investigation)led to 750,000 of them ending up in Israel, where they were treated quite badly by the Ashkenazim elite for a very long time.

[Oregone]

16. Yeah, it may not be the soundest suggestion

Honestly, a whole lot of other suggestions haven't worked either and there is a bit of injustice going on here.

That said, the suggestion is no more asinine as this article, which seems to be aimed at nothing but obfuscation and stirring shit up.

Facebook? Are you fucking kidding me?

[azurnoir]

32. Do you see the efficacy of them living in Palestine rather than Israel?

[DRex]

148. A lot of Israelis are American.

But you're right, it just wasn't a constructive thing to say.

I'll forgive her because it was said at a time of great anger and frustration, and because her track record speaks for itself.

But this guy isn't very constructive either, talking about the Romans as if that can justify anything. Cause you know the Romans didn't pick on anyone else. Talking about rights to land from thousands of years ago.

Nah...

[shira]

26. "The more you defend yourselves, the more we hate you"

Seems to be the rallying cry.

:eyes:

[Fozzledick]

28. "That animal is evil, if you attack it it will defend itself"

Same old same old.

[shira]

30. Haters gonna keep hating

[azurnoir]

34. yes I do hate false spin and bandwagon deception

but this time it woked are you glad that we finally got rid of that "old Arab"

[shira]

38. If you hated false spin, you wouldn't portray Helen's remarks as anti-Israel

Telling Jews to go back to the death camps of Poland and Russia is worse than telling blacks to go back to Africa (which would be enough to end a career).

[azurnoir]

40. there are still death camps in Poland and Russia?

the remarks were antiIsrael and here would be someone who agrees with that

it's from a site I am sure you unfamiliar with :eyes:

#3 Mark | June 4, 2010 4:32 PM | Reply
>
>'Hell'en "Judenrien" Thomas
>
>Psuedo-Prez Obama is another Juderien Jew-hater wanting Judea
>and Samaria ethnically cleansed of Jews. If he wasn't, he'da
>more strongly condemned the Gaza blockade running militants.
>
>http://www.solomonia.com/blog/archive/2010/06/video-hel ... /

[shira]

42. Pathetic. Helen expected Jews to go to Poland and Russia post 1945? Are you kidding?

[azurnoir]

47. According to your post #38 that is exactly what you claim she is saying

now what is pathetic is that this discussion has been reduced to this

[DemocratSinceBirth]

53. Poland And Russia Are Still Rife With Anti-Semitism

I remember when there were food shortages in Poland in the 1980s. The government blamed it on the "Jews"; all 35,000 of them.

[shira]

54. Helen told Jews to go back to Poland and Germany....as if they could in 1945-48

[azurnoir]

90. But there are not death camps and why if the present Polish governt

not the one from 25 years ago is so antisemitic does Israel regularly have tours in Poland of the death camps?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

117. Here

One might have thought that if anything could have cured Poland of its anti-Semitism, it was World War II. Polish Jews and Christians were bonded, as never before, by unimaginable suffering at the hands of a common foe. One might also have thought there’d have been pity for the Jewish survivors, most of whom had lost nearly everything: their homes, their youth, their hope, their entire families. Besides, there were so few of them left to hate: only 200,000 or so in a population of 20 million.

Instead, returning Polish Jews encountered an anti-Semitism of terrible fury and brutality. Small wonder, then, that nearly as soon as they set foot on Polish soil, most fled all over again. Many went westward, to a place that, oddly enough, had suddenly become an oasis of tranquillity and safety by comparison: Germany. Far from being celebrated, those Poles who had sheltered Jews during the war — and there were many — begged them to say nothing, lest their neighbors deride them as “Jew lovers,” or beat them, or break into their homes (searching for the money the Jews had surely left behind) or kill them.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/23/books/review/23margolick.html?pagewanted=1

Respectfully, how can you repatriate a man or woman to a land they are one, two, and sometimes three generations removed from? There's no precedent for that in common or international law, and for good reason.

[azurnoir]

143. But as I pointed out she was in accurate on the point of Poland because Russia would have been more

not to mention that West Bank settlers (Jews) who Helen was referring to can hardly be 3 generations removed from anywhere however Poland undeniably has a long history of antisemitism as your 2006 book review points out

[Ken Burch]

178. It's also possible that "Poland" came to mind for her

because much of the early Zionist leadership was Polish-born.

This included such figures as David Ben-Gurion, Moshe Sneh, Menachem Begin, and later Shimon Peres, among others.

[azurnoir]

33. Yes dear we all know the Jewish settlers have no

intention of leaving Palestine or Judea and Samaria as some call it

[JuniperLea]

35. I just hope they don't get too literal with this bullshit...

Doesn't "their god-given land" extend to the Euphrates?

[Fozzledick]

36. A modest proposal: go back to the borders of 67

Not 1967, just plain 67 C.E., before the diaspora.

[JuniperLea]

37. Doesn't that fly in the face of God?

I mean, it was a gift right?

[Fozzledick]

41. Do you really want to drag the Assyrians into this too?

I was just following the argument of returning to the "old, legal borders" to it's logical conclusion, but if you want to argue for full restoration of the original covenant then by all means go for it! :popcorn:


Then again, there's the issue of Medina....

[JuniperLea]

43. I am Inanna...

I think it's interesting this jumping from religion to state... and these borders... and these reasons. Seems they can be manipulated easily to suit any argument. Ingenious, really.

[Fozzledick]

45. Free Enkidu!

O8)

[JuniperLea]

46. Show me the maggot!

:rofl:

[azurnoir]

39. there has already been way too much "literal" about this n/t

[JuniperLea]

44. Exactly... that's why I wonder about the cherry picking... eom

[proteus_lives]

48. I'll keep saying it...

There wouldn't be so many people washing Thomas' feet if she targeted any other group in her vile statement.

[JuniperLea]

49. Who is washing her feet for fuck's sake?

The self flagellation around here is ridiculous.

[proteus_lives]

50. I'll keep saying it...

Would you be supporting Thomas' if she targeted any other group?

[JuniperLea]

76. I'm supporting her long and wonderful career...

And condemning one thing she said, just like everyone else. I don't give a flying rat's ass if she was talking about Jews, Israelis, Catholics, Brazilians, Buddhists, or Inuits for fuck's sake. You are bound and determined to put words into people's mouths, play the fucking martyr, and complain about shit that you are making up. You don't get to make shit up then condemn people for your fantasy.

[shira]

77. so you'd feel exactly the same way if she told blacks to go back to Africa?

[JuniperLea]

79. Yes...

Sorry I neglected to put them in my list... pity you have so little imagination... :eyes: You just don't get it.

[shira]

81. Oh, I get it. Helen prefers that Jews should've gone back to Germany, Poland, and Russia after WW2

Right back to the killing fields.

Lovely lady.

You don't get it. Jews had nowhere else to go. Nobody wanted them. The "civilized world" failed.

[JuniperLea]

82. Don't you have another tune?

No, you don't get it... or you wouldn't say the same things over and over again expecting a different reply. If it makes you feel bigger and better than everyone else to hate on an 89-year-old woman for one despicable comment uttered over a decades long career, I pity you the need.

Where's the snappy comeback about African Americans? Gosh, you mean you weren't setting me up for some uber intelligent witty snark? What a waste of time.

[shira]

83. It's not about an 89 year old woman. This shit is tolerated far too much...

...whether it's the idiot President of Iran being "mistranslated", Pat Buchanon being employed by MSNBC and FOX, Baroness Tonge calling for an investigation into Israel organ stealing in Haiti, Colonel Travers of the Goldstone Team complaining of Jewish influence in Britain, the assholes from the flotilla calling for Israelis to go back to Auschwitz, singing songs invoking death-to-Jews, etc.

There's always an excuse to minimize and ignore the problem.

[JuniperLea]

96. From what I can see, there's always an excuse to inflate and scream...

You can't expect peace when you are constantly spewing hatred.

You don't have to hate those you perceive as hating you... it makes you no better than what you perceive them to be... and in the eyes of many, it makes you far worse because you claim to know what's right.

I call bullshit. I think you find any little scab you can and rip it off and scream bloody murder... and you make excuses, minimize and ignore the hatred and murder "your side" embodies... in the name of God. God should whip out some good old fashioned lightening bolts and smite all who do evil in his name. It's just not right.

You are calling up on horrible error a person made, and making a federal case of it. All the while you are ignoring the atrocities against others... I call that desperation and bullshit.

[Jim Sagle]

91. Give it up. Shira's testifying, you're lying, and that's the end of it.

[JuniperLea]

98. I don't give up when fighting against bigotry like this...

To hold others accountable to levels you yourself aren't willing to achieve is pure bullshit, hatred, and stupidity.

[Jim Sagle]

109. I assume you're looking in a mirror as you type that.

Because it fits you to a t.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

57. Wow-I Hope The Mods Don't Delete Your Post Or Mine!!!

"So the jews have been kicked out of almost every country in the world. I have a buddy that's been kicked out of almost every bar in Baltimore. But we his friends tend to think HE has the problem. Not the rest of the world. Hint. Hint. After you've been kicked out of 10 or 20 countries. That might be a good time to start thinking maybe we're the ones with the problem. "

-Wizard777


Are you really suggesting that anti-semitism is the fault of its victims? Wow... Wow... Wow...

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

59. You Suggested That Nations Were Justified In Forcibly Evicting Jews From Their Lands

I don't know where I suggested Jews were perfect.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

67. You Have The Right To Any Opinion You Want

I am beyond astounded that you think it's appropriate for nations to expel entire groups of people based on race, religion, ethnicity, et cetera.

But now that we have established that you think it's appropriate to expel entire groups of people, or at the least Jewish people, what methods would be appropriate to remove those who refuse to leave:

-gas chambers

-shooting them and burying them in open ditches

-concentration camps

-using them for macabre medical experiments

others?

As to forced expulsions there are nearly one and one half million Arabs living in Israeli proper. If Israel was to expel them the hew and cry would be astounding and entirely justified.

I agree with John Stuart Mill who opined "If all mankind minus one were of one opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind." but I am astounded that you would go to the mat to defend the proposition that nations are justified for expelling Jews from their land without cause.

[Wizard777]

70. You're just flame baiting now. I ONLY suggest that ANYONE consistently expelled from ANYWHERE -

might want to check themselves first before blaming the rest of the world. Just like my buddy that's been ejected from every bar in Baltimore. Maybe, just maybe, his problem is not the rest of the world. The same with jews. That's all I'm saying.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

72. How Am I Flamebaiting?

You said it was the Jews' fault as a collective people they were kicked out of so many lands by suggesting they examine themselves to see why they were kicked out; i.e. the fault was with them like your friend who ironically is barred from so many bars.

Could you please enumerate what the Jews as a people did that justifies their masss expulsion.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

86. A Few Points

I would never tell an African American to get over slavery. The damage could never be undone.

Here's your latest statement:

"I merely suggested they might not be entirely blameless. Not the same as saying they are entirely to blame."

-Wizard777

How are individual Jews responsible for the acts of other individual Jews and what crimes did these individual Jews do to warrant mass expulsion from the land on which they live?

[Wizard777]

94. I'll have to answer your question with a question.

How are individual Palestinians responsible for the acts of other individual Palestinians and what crimes did these individual Palestinians do to warrant mass expulsion from the land on which they live?

Personally I've never even felt the need to go through history trying to track down jewish crimes. But some of the resentments comes from Jewish Theology, customs and traditions. The Vatican not that long ago released a letter from the Bishop of Poland to Pius XII. In the letter the Bishop had stated that "Judaism has become a disease upon the minds of the German Youth." I sometimes cite that letter in debate on the theory of addiction that makes freewill a disease of the mind. We're also seeing that tact used against Muslims because of their Theology, customs and traditions. Both are cultuer clashes. There is also a new theory evolving about the Exodus. The Pharaoh granted Moses their freedom. But that's all he granted them. The new theory to which they have found some archaeological evidence, that is being hotly disputed, would also explain why Pharaoh went after them when they left. Apparently they weren't going into the desert with no supplies. Being slaves they would have little or no money to buy supplies with. So they looted a few Egyptian towns on the way out. That's why Pharaoh set out after them with the army. It was to bring them back to egypt for their crimes against egypt. Then there's the cover story of not needing supplies because God sent them Manna from Heaven. But as I said the archaeological findings are hotly being disputed. If the evidence stands. Then the world has an account of exodus from the POV of Egyptians. That would also confirm that the Exodus is more than Jewish Myth. It would become a Historical fact. If the evidence is disproved. Then Exodus remains a Jewish Myth. Frankly I'm not a historic fart sniffer. But they do exist and you have to be wary of them in your studies of history. Spin a propaganda is not a modern invention. The God's of the old religion have always become the devils of the new religion.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

99. Here

How are individual Palestinians responsible for the acts of other individual Palestinians and what crimes did these individual Palestinians do to warrant mass expulsion from the land on which they live?

They aren't.

IMHO right minded people don't blame groups for actions of individuals nor blame individuals for actions of their groups.

[Wizard777]

110. Exactly. But the OP also does that. It addresses the individuals as a whole.

Did every last Jew really get expelled from all those places? Not a single one managed to stay behind anywhere?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

112. I Disagreed With Much Of The OP. It Inflames Rather Than Enlighten

I , a priori, oppose collective punishment.

[Wizard777]

114. So do I on both.

[LeftishBrit]

116. So it does, but that's something wrong with the article, not something wrong with the Jews

Some in Israel are inclined to use past sufferings of the Jews as a cheap propaganda shot, just as some Americans for example use 9-11 that way. That does NOT mean that the Americans deserved 9-11, or that the Jews deserved antisemitic discrimination at best, and often deportations and pogroms.

[Name removed]

119. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LeftishBrit]

120. Sorry but that's just disgusting

And I would say it with regard to ANY group.

[Wizard777]

125. But it goes against many customs. They were a stateless people.

They were guests in those lands. It's like the girl that lost her eye after being shot with a tear gas canister. She was from here in Maryland and I started a discussion on it at a board run by a local paper. I was shocked when may of the replies were she deserved it. She was a guest there. How dare she protest anything. I think what was so shocking about it. In retrospect they are partially right in that when you are a guest in another country. You don't insult your host like that. It is more important to observe their customs and traditions than to assert your own. But that doesn't justify abusive treatment of any kind for the disrespect and I don't consider expulsion or deportation to be abusive.

[LeftishBrit]

127. The implication of your post...

is that Jews were just 'guests' in the countries that they lived in, and that the natives of their countries were their 'hosts' who could have the right to deport them at any time.

Of course it was often the case (and that's the main reason why they wanted their own state!) but that doesn't make it *right*.

The expulsions of Jews were mostly not of immigrants, let alone temporary visitors, but of people who had lived in these countries for generations.

Do you think that the descendants of immigrants remain mere 'guests' in their countries? If so, for how many generations?

[Wizard777]

130. It depend entirely upon the law of the land. But it is a Sovereign right.

One that Israel also uses. So what about the "victims" of Israeli deportations?

[LeftishBrit]

142. I feel just the same way about those in Israel who would like to deport Arab citizens

Do you think Avigdor Lieberman has a valid point? Do you think Jan Brewer does? Nick Griffin?

[Wizard777]

144. Once there is an equitable agreement upon what is Israel and what is Palestine.

Then I would respect the sovereignty of both. Both could deport whom ever they please. As for Brewer. I don't have a problem in the world with legal immigrants. But I've seen the hell people go through and the thousands upon thousands they pay to become legal immigrants. So Illegal immigrant infuriate me. So does the idea of giving them amnesty.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

131. "I don't consider expulsion or deportation to be abusive,"

Are you o.k. with ethnic cleansing?

[Wizard777]

133. Ethnic cleansing is just a nicer way of saying genocide. Not deportation.

[LTX]

141. Deep scholarly debate?

This is just laughable. But tell you what, why don't you provide some deep, scholarly reasons why the Jews are to blame for the Holocaust? Or if that one's a bit too difficult, maybe some deep, scholarly reasons why Jews are to blame for being "consistently . . . expelled from place after place?" I'm sure you've given deep, scholarly thought to the inherent defects in Jews that caused these events, so please share.

[Wizard777]

145. I never said they were.

[cali]

151. you're a disgusting bigot. your comments are worthy of stormfront

and that's all I have to say to a bigot like you.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

106. After reading your screed here on the "blacks and Jews"

I can't help but be reminded of your constant accusations that Sonia Sotomayor was racist and I've come to the conclusion you wouldn't know racism if it bit you in the ass.

[Wizard777]

I'm glad she was confirmed and I was highly impressed with her first decision.

But my opinion of that statement has not changed one bit it was a racist and sexist statement. Made with the best of intentions no doubt. But that doesn't change the fact it was racist and sexist. Humans are too complex a being to be contemplated in terms of singular aspects like race and sex and even religion.

[JuniperLea]

126. ignore...

posted to wrong comment.

[Dorian Gray]

140. Holy hell

:puke:

[LTX]

146. I just saw this post, and you sir, are the very essence of ignorance and filth

To quote you, complete with juvenile emoticon:

"Then you toss out the holocaust as an example of every ejection they have incurred. Frankly I'm getting sick of hearing that. So are many others. If Brittan started whining about how our fore fathers committed treason against the crown and stole their land. They would be laughed right off the planet. The world can only cry so hard for so long before we have to say, :eyes: Oh just get the hell over it."

The Holocaust, you perfect god-damned halfwit, is not ancient history. It did not happen 235 years ago, and it was not a revolutionary war, so your attempted analogy is beyond asinine. It is heartless and ignorant and repulsive. There are 5 members of my Temple who escaped Nazi Germany alive, but without family members. There were 4 camp survivors, 2 from Sobibor, 1 from Chelmno, and 1 from Belzec. There are fathers, mothers, grandfathers, grandmothers, brothers, sisters, cousins, aunts, and uncles who were lost.

For you to say "oh just get the hell over it" and to add a childish eye-rolling emoticon to this putrid sentiment is simply beyond the bounds of human decency. May you rot in Hell.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

158. Sorry To Hear That

I thank G-d my ancestors left Europe at the turn of the nineteenth century.

As an aside the poster minimized slavery; another odious chapter in history.

[ColesCountyDem]

180. Well said!

My uncle, a man who I love like a second father, is one of only 3 Holocaust survivors out of a middle-class Polish family of 162 members.

No one 'gets over that'-- not EVER.

:applause::thumbsup:

[CTLawGuy]

175. hmm do you think it might have been

because they are different, because they have a different religion than their host country, and the rulers of said countries weren't cool with that?

[LeftishBrit]

115. No

I just object to blaming the victims of discrimination and often of worse and much worse.

There was a post a few months ago that implied that the fact that the Palestinians have been treated badly by several countries must mean that there's something wrong with the Palestinians - and I objected to that too.

Would you also say that the fact that Black people were kept in slavery in many countries means something bad about THEM? Or that the disposession and genocide of Native Americans and Aboriginal Australians means that THEY are at fault? Or that long-term oppression of women during the history of many countries, and their being debarred from many jobs and opportunities at many times and places, means that we ARE an inferior sex?

If you would say these things about all these groups, then you are a right-wing extremist bastard. If you would only say them about Jews, then you are also a right-wing extremist bastard.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

121. In That Vein

It seems the only group more despised than Jews are GLBTQ folks. I wonder if the poster we are addressing would say they need to examine their behavior. Blaming the victim is never acceptable; especially among self professed progressives.

[Wizard777]

129. Being expelled from a country is a sovereignty issue. It's not all about racism or blaming victims

But since you want to go to all those places. I'll just ask you one question. Are you gonna return your land to the local tribe? You wouldn't want to benefit from the Genocide against Native American tribe's.

[Dorian Gray]

138. I wish posts like those

weren't deleted so we knew who and when such rabidly ignorant statements were made.

Amazing.

[Codeine]

153. Agreed.

It allows disgusting filth like Wizard777 to slide under the radar with their hate.

[Codeine]

152. How on earth did that not result in a granite pizza?

That is almost certainly the single most offensive post I have ever read on DU that did not result in the banhammer coming down.

To be clear, I mean Wizard777's post, not yours.

[Ken Burch]

179. Christ...that line was almost a direct lift from the end of "A Star Called Henry" by Roddy Doyle

That version of it was despicable too.

[Douglas Carpenter]

61. I would not conflate Jewish people with the State of Israel's policies

It is to a large degree the experience of Jewish suffering and persecution that created the Zionist movement to begin with. It is to a large degree the sense of having been rejected and persecuted by the world that has contributed to the mindset that drives the misguided policies of the State of Israel and legitimizes the ideological direction of Zionism.

As someone who supports the Palestinian cause I am deeply offended by those who blame the victims and fault the Palestinians for the injustice committed against them. I would not want to blame the victims and fault the Jews for any of the many injustices committed against them anymore than I would fault the Palestinians for having been victimized by injustice.

From best I can understand, early pre-19th Century anti-Jewishness was largely religious persecution - mostly within Christendom by those who simply could not countenance a people who did not recognize in any form Jesus Christ as the Savior, Son of God or even a prophet. This was a time when religious belief was seen by many of its supporters as almost an empirical truth and religious persecution was seen as a necessity to protect the public from those who might cause souls to spend eternity in hell. This was also an era where in most of Europe and even early colonial America, religious power and state power overlapped a great deal.

The kind of anti-Semitism that developed in Europe from the 19th century onward was rooted to a large degree in the rise of ethnic-nationalism. Jewish people were increasingly seen as a foreign race living among groups who were largely starting to identify their own ethnic group as a race that by definition excluded outsiders who spoke different languages, had different customs and worshiped a different God.

During both periods Jewish people were stereotyped as money lenders. For one thing Jews had generally been excluded from the craft and trade gilds which were open only to Christians and were not able to participate in many of the respectable trades of the time. For another, early Christianity forbade its followers to openly loan money at interest - while it was acceptable within the Jewish religious tradition of the time to loan money to non-Jews. In a world absent of many economic protections this stereotype frequently resulted in Jewish people being the object of resentment and envy. There was a saying that "anti-Semitism is the fools socialism." Early 20th Century anti-Semites frequently blamed the economic woes of working people on the Jews - already stereotyped , rather than on the capitalist system of exploitation as proclaimed by socialist and Marxist.

It is no more fair to blame Jewish people for being victims of anti-Semitism than it is fair to blame the Palestinians for the injustice done against them.

[Wizard777]

63. I refer to them as "Jews" for historical accuracy. At the time of these events Israel did not exist.

So to call them "Israeli's" would be incorrect inaccurate and deceptive. That deception would violate my religious tenets. The Zoroastrian have long enjoyed good relations with the jews. But frankly I'm Surprised that Cyrus the Great hasn't jumped up out of his grave to Conquer Israel to free the Palestinians from their oppressions. Just like he did for the Jews in Babylon Centuries ago.

[Wizard777]

66. I think the problem is the OP Involves the Jewish struggle. That's theology not Israeli politics.

That creates a Bait and switch opportunity. The OP gets to state their views of the struggle as fact and cry antisemitism if anyone challenges their views in any way. So this thread should be moved to the religion section. That would be the more proper place to discuss the jewish struggle.

[LeftishBrit]

123. Great post!

[LTX]

69. Uh-oh:

You obviously missed the memo. These days, if you just substitute "Israel" for "the Jews", your patent bigotry is automatically sanitized. Then again, sanitizing this particular disgusting sentiment might be a stretch.

[Wizard777]

74. They are NOT Synonymous. I know plenty of Jews that are not Israeli's.

Just like being Catholic doesn't make you a citizen of Vatican City. After being a stateless people for so long. You would think they would want to create a place where all people are welcome. But that's already been done. That place is called America.

[JuniperLea]

80. I have Christian cousins living in Israel...

They've been there nearly 10 years now. Still Christians... so I take that to mean you don't automatically become Jewish by virtue of your Israeli address.

[Wizard777]

84. Exactly! There are even Muslim Arabs that live there.

The terms are not Synonymous as many try to make them out to be. The only reason they try to make them synonymous is so they can run for the cover of the holocaust when you try to call them on their antipalestinian or antiarab BS. Anyone that says that they aren't antipalestinian or antiarab has never been to Israel. The way they talk about Palestinians and Arabs in Israel reminds me how whites used to talk about blacks here in America. They spew their racist crap openly and freely just like when racism was institutionalized here in America. Israeli's in the streets will not hesitate to tell a Palestinian to go back to arab countries. But when Helen Thomas expresses the same thing in reverse. Suddenly the whole world must stop.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

93. I Have Spoke To Many Israeli And American Jews

There are some bigots who speak contemptuously of Arabs but most wish to see them treated equitably.

[Wizard777]

97. Yes there is good in all people and cultures. I don't dispute that one bit.

There are many Israeli's that are unhappy with the treatment of Palestinians and Arabs by Israel.

[JuniperLea]

95. I hear similar stories... on the flip side...

My cousin has friends of every stripe... Arabs, Palestinians, Muslims, Jews... And in her core group of friends, there is no color or religion. Only human beings that want nothing more than to get along and have a home. This group has said many times that the hatred they see is fueled by Israeli and Jewish leaders in government, that the people would settle down and go on about their business if they weren't constantly being poked by hate-filled cattle prods.

[Wizard777]

101. That's exactly why I say the Racism is institutionalized. It was like that here in America.

We actually had laws protecting racism and racists. That just makes the racism institutionalized when it's perpetuated by government. Jewish americans over there remind of the people that were "passing." Those were blacks that could pass for white. So they tended to be extra prejudice to fit in and remain above suspicion. You see the same thing with American Jews in Israel. Nobody can spew the hate and propaganda like they do.

It sounds like your cousin and I would get along great. I think there are only two kinds of people in this world. My friends and the friend's I have yet to meet.

[Name removed]

104. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Wizard777]

113. What's that? I also debate at Baltimore Sun. I'm pretty much Wizard777 where ever I go.

Unless it's a religious site. Then I'm Magus Amathion.

[JuniperLea]

122. I think you'd like her entire family...

Dedicated to self-edification, they shine the harsh white light of truth on Christians, Jews, and everyone else. They live a Christian life in keeping with the ancient teachings of Christ... they are Good Samaritans... they are big on feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, loving all people even if some perceive those people as sinners. It's a beautiful thing, imho. They no longer pray in public restaurants, they celebrate most of the Jewish holidays, they don't judge people, they don't condescend, they give of themselves as much as they think is needed even when it appears they may suffer personally and take the leap of faith that they will be provided for... and they have been. They are part of a Kibbutz... they understand it's communism, and they embrace the socialism that Jesus taught. They are Christian missionaries... and they feel they've taught as much as has been taught to them. It's really quite lovely... we were raised in the same church as kids... I'm now Agnostic, and she's fully Christian in all the best that the word means.

I'm fairly blown away how it's all turned out... my aunt, her uber Fundy mother, is freaking out, man:) But I couldn't be happier about the whole thing.

[Wizard777]

132. No doubt. They sound like a great and very interesting bunch.

We have a lot in common. I'm fond of the ancient ways. I follow Zoroaster. In that I have little tolerance of dishonesty of any kind and can't stand lapses of logic. So as you can plainly see I'm not always the most popular guy in the room. Also probably the reason I'm 78 and still single. Does this dress make me look fat? No, it's not the dress. It's everything you ate before you put it on that makes you look fat. So you can't dedicate your life to truth in a quest to be popular. In a quest for Wisdom yes. But never to be popular. The truth is rarely popular. People are usually much more interested in their own delusions.

[JuniperLea]

135. "The truth is rarely popular."

Far too many are afraid of the truth... and the unknown... so they make crap up to make themselves feel better.

I follow Juniperism:) I find God/Goddess on the beach every Saturday and Sunday morning, and have long since given up on finding him/her in any church, mosque, synagogue, etc. The Moneychangers are back in control... you rarely find truth where The Moneychangers rule.

[Wizard777]

136. Good for you! I found Him in my heart and mind. Now I look for Him in Physics.

I find him there quite frequently in mind blowing ways.

[JuniperLea]

137. I have always embraced the idea that science...

would someday show us God... that he is the master scientist. You really remove the wheat from the chaff in a hurry when you look deeply into the physical, keeping the spiritual in mind. People will always make up their own rules, but nothing they can do can stop gravity, or friction, or the speed of light.

[LTX]

89. Out of curiosity:

Have you told any those "plenty of Jews" that you know about your defective friend who keeps getting kicked out of bars? And have you told any of those "plenty of Jews" that you know that they're just like your defective friend, and that it's their own damn Jewishness that got them gassed by the millions?

[Wizard777]

105. Yes I have posed that to them. I also called one to tell him of addition about them getting gassed.

He wanted me to make sure you understood in no uncertain terms they would have preferred to have been kicked out instead. My jewish friend can give it as well as they can take it. But yes I have made that point about my drunk friend. They thought it was a good point. That maybe they don't do self examinations as frequently as they should. Most jews would consider looking at themselves through the eyes of an enemy or opponent and exercise in self loathing. My jewish friends love to debate and they always come to a debate armed to the teeth. That's what I love about my Jewish friends.

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

108. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LeftishBrit]

111. That...

is one of the nastiest posts I've ever read.

[OllieLotte]

118. That because he has really obnoxious friends. n/t

[Wizard777]

134. Oh yeah a couple of them of them without a doubt. That's where my endless patience comes in handy.

[Wizard777]

71. The OP is Historically inaccurate. At the beginning of recorded History they lived in Canaan.

Not Palestine.

[Fokker Trip]

85. Here's what I don't understand...

What does Israel see as the endgame to all of this?

People on both sides debate and fight about who did what to whom. I have my own opinions, but they are just that...opinions.

The realities as far as I can tell are these.

-The only reason Israel can be as belligerant as it is is because of the money and weapons that the US supplies them with each year. Without this money and these weapons Israel would have no recourse but to negotiate with the people who live in neighboring countries and with the Palestinians.

-The US empire is winding down...there will be no lasting recovery as there are no underpinnings to allow one. Things are going to get a lot worse for the majority of Americans and its hard to see how they will get better. It will very likely come to a point where the US experiences hyper-inflation or massive deflation and under these conditions will the aid that goes to Israel really be a high priority? Will the US public go along with that?

-Israel only seems to be getting more determined in its aggression and is alienating large swaths of the public worldwide who had previously supported the "self-defense" meme.

-Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that orthodox Jews in Israel are having a lot more kids than secular/non-orthodox Jews. At the same time my understanding is that orthodox Jews don't serve in the army as part of their beliefs. The settlers who carry guns must be the equivalent of the army when it comes to orthodox Jews defending themselves(?). As time goes by it will be more and more a case of fundamentalists running the country and the armed forces (its already largely that way)

At the same time the Palestinians are having way more kids than anyone in Israel is and as these kids are born in what are essentially prison camps they are not well adjusted and happy kids. I would think that they grow up feeling rather angry at Israel. They too are becoming fundamentalists.

-No other country in the world will/can step into the shoes of the US in regards to Israel.

So what does the Israeli government see as the endgame to all of this? Is it the forced deportation of all the Palestinians? is it the slow extermination of the Palestinians?

If the Palestinians renounced all aggression would Israel really lighten up on them? After all the vitriol and rhetoric?

I've read about the "Samson option", where Israel would blow itself and its neighbors up with nukes if it looked like they were going to be overrun, but what else is likely to happen in the end?. Israel seems to have a siege mentality but how does that work in a small country with really limited resources? Surely starting to de-escalate the situation is in the best interests of everyone

If Israel did ever use nukes the Israeli people would die in droves...there isn't enough space there to escape all of the fallout and other effects of nuclear detonations. As well they would become a pariah in the world and with the US empire greatly diminished or gone the US could not do much to help them.

The way the situation is now can go on for quite some time yet, but the one constant in the world is that everything changes over time and the trends don't look good for Israel if it continues on its present course. The knee-jerk reaction to ANY questions that are raised regarding what Israel does indicate that Ideology is becoming more important than reality to the Israeli leadership and its supporters.

Can anyone paint a picture for me of what they think the next 30 to 50 years will look like for Israel and the Palestinians?

I fully support Israels right to exist..but its like watching a friend leave your house in some way impaired and get behind the wheel of a car...there's a good chance things won't go well for that person. Surely Israels supporters are just a little worried about whats going to happen over time.

It seems to me that everyone involved is always just reacting with little thought to the future. But the facts are what they are and they will assert themselves regardless of what people wish for or argue over.

[shira]

88. Israel's waiting for a peace partner like Egypt or Jordan. If not, then they're determined to live

....and not commit national suicide by making a peace deal only on paper.

The rest is commentary.

[Recursion]

103. Mass emigration of Palestinians to Jordan and Egypt

Probably with some financial and even possibly territorial concessions to those countries.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

107. I Really Think Reasonable Folks Can Find A Solution Especially If There's Money To Lubricate It.

Some of the settlers will have to be moved. Palestinians are not going back to their homes they vacated or were evicted from in 1948. However I can see land swaps with Israel, Palestine, Egypt, Jordan, and Lebanon that would allow two viable states; an Israeli and a Palestinian one.

[Recursion]

124. Israel wants Jordan and Egypt to take responsibility for the Palestinians

And I don't really mean financial responsibility (Israel would probably we willing to pay for their upkeep for the foreseeable future). They want Jordan and Egypt to provide security guarantees that Palestinians won't attack Israelis, and to when necessary use their security forces to enforce that.

It is my complete wild-ass guess that they would be willing to give them some territory currently owned or administered by Israel to help make this happen. But as far as I can read, that is what they want: the current West Bank settlements to stay, and Jordan and Egypt to watch over the 4 million or so Palestinians in Gaza and the rest of the West Bank.

The Palestinians, unsurprisingly, don't particularly want to be Jordanians or Egyptians, and Jordan and Egypt have absolutely no desire to take on that many more refugees. But that is, as far as I can tell, the Likud plan for the endgame to the extent that they have one (though mostly they seem to have as much of an endgame in mind as the American neocons did about Iraq).

[DemocratSinceBirth]

128. That Was The Old Rogers Plan.We Are Well Past That.

The Palestinians understandably want a land of their own. I think it's doable. However I don't think a return of Palestinians (It's really their progeny as most of those who fled are no longer alive) to the land they vacated or were forcibly evicted from is going to happen. It was sixty two years ago.

[Fozzledick]

139. Rabbi who filmed Helen Thomas told to 'go back in the oven'

Rabbi David Nesenoff tells Haaretz the incident opened his eyes as to the extent of anti-Semitism in the world and how central it was in certain social groups.

"Hitler was right. Time for you to go back in the oven," is one of the more subdued expressions to be found in the thousands of missives received by the rabbi whose interview with Helen Thomas included the veteran White House correspondent sending the Jews back to Poland and Germany.

"I asked everyone the same question about Israel, since I wanted to make a video supporting Israel," Rabbi David Nesenoff told Haaretz, saying his encounter with Thomas on May 27, too place as the White House celebrated Jewish Heritage Month, the first such event to organized by U.S. President Barack Obama and his wife Michelle.

"I was very surprised when Thomas told me that not only was she opposed to the two-state solution, but that she thought that the Jews should leave Israel and return to the final solution, more or less," Nesenoff said.

Nesenoff said he knew Thomas had been critical of Israel in the past, but "the most I was expecting was that she would say something about a pullout from the Golan Heights. I wasn't provoking or asking anything on purpose. I asked a very simple question, but I guess 'Israel' was the code word that burst the dam."

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/rabbi-who-filmed-helen-thomas-told-to-go-back-in-the-oven-1.295588

Maybe this can shed a little light on whether it was the author of the original posted article who's confusing Jews with Israel, or whether it's Helen Thomas and her supporters.

[Wizard777]

147. But he wasn't told that by Helen Thomas.

[howard112211]

157. What difference does it make?

Apparently none to some.

[Fozzledick]

163. I think he's finally gone...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&u_id=168334

If anyone thinks they know what post actually put him over the top I'd like to know.

[depakid]

150. This is exactly why I support the South African transition model- not the two state solution

Essentially- and realistically Israel is an apartheid nation. No sense dividing it among occupied and unoccupied and lying profusely about its nature. Just democratize the entire area, occupied and not, and set up a truth and reconciliation deal for the new nation.

[howard112211]

156. Some have argued here that what you are advocating is the "destruction of Israel".

I happen to agree with you. However we belong to the group that is usually referred to as "One-State Nutters".

Here's the catch: The oh so brilliant "Two-State solution" advocates have not been able to work out anything for the last 60 years. I think that kind of amounts to "trying the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome".

[DemocratSinceBirth]

161. Where's The Model For This State?

Could you please name one nation in the Middle East beside Israel where Jews can live as fully empancipated citizens with equal rights? And the dhimi status they "enjoyed" in Arab countries prior to the birth of Israel doesn't count.

[howard112211]

162. As for the middle east, not sure, but

generally if you ask the question where whites can live emancipated in the presence of a large number of non-white natives, South Africa does come in mind, or the USA and Australia if you will.

I think in the long run, all ethnic groups have to get used to the fact that they cannot demand exclusive priviledge in a Democratic nation. In this sense, the Jews in Israel are in no different position as the Whites in the US, who in part are also concerned about the demographic developement that might place them in a minority position.

[Ken Burch]

172. This would be about creating a NEW model

You don't have to base assumptions about such a state solely on what other states did in the dead past.

Palestinians are not to blame for the Mizrahi Exodus to Israel. We actually need an independent investigation to determine exactly who or what caused that.

[dyingnumbers]

154. Poor things.

Ya’ll pretty much hate us.

Are you using this vernacular as a White ethnic? Watch your tone, you are not the minority here...

If the Palestinians really are puppets, as one writer here has suggested, then the Jews have been acting like spoiled children, as far as I'm concerned.

Oh, stop feeling sorry for yourselves: You've been pandering to this minority group with all of your negotiations and provisions. Please stop acting unappreciated for all of your so-called sacrifices!

[howard112211]

155. I love it how Israel supporters use some crap that happened 2000 years ago

as basis for their argument.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

159. What Happened 2000 Years Ago Beside The Crucifixion And Resurrection Of Christ?

~

[howard112211]

160. Romans occupying Israel.

As for the rest, all of it is speculation.

[Fozzledick]

164. You mean Jews being told to "get the hell out" of their original homeland in Judea?

Isn't that what started this whole thing?

Isn't that what Helen Thomas is advocating again?

[howard112211]

165. Telling people to get out of a country they were born in is offensive.

Suggesting that an American or Russian born Jew who has never set a foot on Israeli soil has a more legitimate claim to Israeli citizenship than a Palestine native, because of a biblical history the factuality of which is heavily disputed, is utterly ridiculous.

[CTLawGuy]

167. this apparent acceptance of anti-semitism is a real stain on the left

(though I imagine the reaction would have been markedly different if it were Pat Buchanan who was caught on tape saying what Helen Thomas said.)

Whether she believes it or not, or didn't know what she was saying, the comment was still blatantly anti-semitic. It clearly referred to the Jews, not to government of Israel, not to Zionists, but to the Jews. It was also ignorant in saying that said Jews should go "back" to countries most have never called "home" even if they have managed to visit there.

I for one, am one liberal who does NOT tolerate antisemitism no matter who it comes from.