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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 10:21 AM
Original message
What the Israel-bashers learned from Bush
Edited on Thu Jun-17-10 10:26 AM by shira
What the Israel-bashers learned from Bush
The international campaign to brand Israel a ‘pariah state’ is a shrill echo of what President George W Bush tried to do with Iraq.


<snip>

Is this disdainful, degraded view of Others really any more radical when it is applied to the Jewish State rather than to parts of allegedly bestial Africa or irrational Arabia?

<snip>

One American radical exploits all of the fears pushed into the international arena by the Bush regime – fundamentalism, WMD, roguishness – in his case against Israel, arguing that Israel is ‘increasingly paranoid and isolated, dominated by fundamentalists, and armed with over 200 nukes’. Israel is ‘becoming like North Korea’, he says, ‘except qualitatively more dangerous because it has an advanced nuclear arsenal and sits in a more strategic part of the world’. Here, the prejudices of the Bush regime are reproduced under the radical guise of opposing the Zionist state.

And just like the Bush regime in relation to Iraq, anti-Israel activists are most outraged that a nation ‘over there’ has dared to defy the United Nations and even Washington itself.

<snip>

Also echoing the Bush regime, anti-Israel activists exploit the moral authority of the Holocaust. Many criticised Bush when he compared Saddam to Hitler, yet radical anti-Israel agitators frequently refer to Israel as a ‘genocidal state’ which is carrying out a ‘Holocaust’ in Gaza. Such spectacular historical idiocy is designed to achieve what the Bush administration also wanted to achieve: a warm, self-satisfying sense of a gaping, unbridgeable divide between Good and Evil, only where Bush believed the divide was between his White House and the ‘Axis of Evil’ (Iraq, Iran, North Korea), the anti-Israel lobby believes it is between them, with their superior, cosmopolitan, caring values, and today’s No.1 ‘pariah state’ (another Washington-invented term they love to use): Israel. One writer accuses Israel of crossing the ‘boundary of civilisation’; another says the Gaza flotilla represents ‘sheer human decency’ against ‘medieval’ Israel. This is the childish ‘with us or against us’ politics of the Bush era given an ostensibly radical twist.

<snip>

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/8963/

:popcorn:
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provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
1. Brendan O'Neill is a right wing asshole.
He usually posts at The American Conservative, among other things. No credibility with me.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. John J. Mearsheimer articles run at The American Conservative as well
Does he have any credibility with you?
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. The fact that Glenn Greenwald has been published in TAC
Edited on Thu Jun-17-10 12:13 PM by azurnoir
has been used by shira as proof positive that he is a raging antisemite and just like Pat Buchanan on more than one occasion a search of TAC came up with 32 for Greenwald and 200 for O'Neill
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. Glenn Greenwald's positions on Israel are indistinguishable from Pat Buchanon's
Edited on Thu Jun-17-10 03:11 PM by shira
Brendan O'Neill's views on Israel are nothing like the views of Buchanon, Greenwald, or any other run-of-the-mill Israel basher who exploits Palestinian suffering (only when Israel seems to be the oppressor) to cover for their irrational, pathological hatred of the Jewish State.

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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. so when it suits your needs just what I thought
really you should vet your authors better talk about pathological shira
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. whatever you wish to believe
Edited on Thu Jun-17-10 05:38 PM by shira
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. HIs argument is childish. If you take a position, you are like Bush.
It's the Faux "everything is everything" argument in anti-Bush drag.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. It's a respin of the old ProIsrael canard
that the only reason the "left" was anti-Israel was that Bush was pro-Israel
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Yeah, that, too. n/t
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. How is O'Neill rightwing? He's the editor of a liberal magazine/website.
Edited on Thu Jun-17-10 02:54 PM by shira
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. but but but shira
doesn't writing for TAC make you an antisemite just like Pat Buchanan or is that only when it fits your propaganda need for the day?
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. no, it's writing for TAC while espousing the same exact views as the most vicious bigoted RW haters
Edited on Thu Jun-17-10 05:49 PM by shira
....that makes someone a RW bigoted hater.

Glenn Greenwald's views on I/P can best be described as far "rightwing" Left or the place where the far Right and far Left meet (new Left = old Right).
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. lol new lyrics same old song
right up until this post you have held up the fact that Greenwald had been published in TAC as proof positve he was an antisemite also Greenwald is along with Seth Freedman. Tony Judt, Uri Averny, Avi Shlaim on your list of baaaad Jews
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. You're the only one claiming I judge people based on the publications they write for.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. are you now denying that you have done this? n/t
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-18-10 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #19
27. crickets shira why is that? n/t
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B Whale Donating Member (500 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
11. I got to the end of this article before i realised you were talking about critics of israel rather
than pro israelis.

It is the palestinians who are dehumanized, it is the palestinians who are all fundamentalists, and it is the zionist fanatics who constantly, cynically and quite disgustingly frequently refer to the holocaust as a justification of stealing land, occupation and oppression.

This article is simply ridiculous!
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Wow.
It is the palestinians who are dehumanized,

How so? There's a world of difference criticizing Palestinians and criticizing Hamas or the PLO.

it is the palestinians who are all fundamentalists,

All? Who says that?

and it is the zionist fanatics who constantly, cynically and quite disgustingly frequently refer to the holocaust as a justification of stealing land, occupation and oppression.

Examples please?

This article is simply ridiculous!

Funny - I think your response to the article can be described that way.
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B Whale Donating Member (500 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. examples?
is that a joke?

i consider you as being pro israeli but not fanatical and even YOU have referred to the holocaust in your arguments with me when discussing the flotilla!!!!

thats one example. it happens endlessly

Palestinians are dehumanized (and humiliated) by the actions of the israeli state, however through its supporters and settlers they are seen by many as sub--human (and "you don't want peace" being a constant ralyying cry at pro israeli rallies. Which normal oppressed humans don't want peace. that is dehumanizing and a slur they are all terrorists

It happens endlessl

anyway, i know you only posted your response in such a way to nitpick over examples, rather than answer fundamental questions

do begin....
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Ummm....
I mentioned the holocaust WRT the flotilla? Honestly, I can't remember that, but you wrote fanatics use the holocaust to justify oppression, occupation, land theft, etc. I'm still waiting for examples of that.

Palestinian LEADERSHIP doesn't want peace - and I think we can agree on that - so I'm not sure how that equates to innocent Palestinians not wanting peace.

You brought up Palestinians being dehumanized by actions of the state of Israel. In armed conflict that's always the case.

Tell me then, how would you morally react to Hamas, the PLO, Hezbollah, etc.. if you were in charge of Israel and responsible for protecting its 7 million citizens?
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B Whale Donating Member (500 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-18-10 06:34 AM
Response to Reply #18
25. I would stop expanding my state into
other people's territories and stealing land through the force of arms. Stop listening to zionists who are a threat to the safey and sanity of ordinary israelis and dismantle all 'settlements', comply with international law and support the creation of a palestine!

This would drain the support from the fanatics amongst the general population. Prosperous, unoccupied, unhumiliated and free people who recieve justice generally refrain from violence. its quite simple.

The "hard steps" that israel refuses to take are a dereliction of duty towards its citizens.

With regards to Hamas, PLO, Hezbollah. Well i would do what israel does already behind the scenes, i would talk and negotiate. Like Britain did with the IRA. negotiation and special forces and secret service operations to take out and arrest their leadership when necessary.

Now, if for some reason a free and prosperous state of palestine as a partner of israel suddenly decided to attack (as a nation state). well, you'd have the whole international community behind you (including myself) in your actions. but that simply isn;t plausible. Israel is a nuclear armed power with one of the most expensive armed forces in the world. Quite safe!
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-18-10 06:47 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. Remember the Lebanon pullout in 2000, Gaza in 2005?
Edited on Fri Jun-18-10 06:52 AM by shira
End of occupation, settlements.

What resulted?

Where we differ is here:

"This would drain the support from the fanatics amongst the general population. Prosperous, unoccupied, unhumiliated and free people who recieve justice generally refrain from violence. its quite simple."

How did those pullouts drain support for fanatics from Hezbollah and Hamas? And does it really matter if the people support or fail to support their ruthless dictators? Iran proves it doesn't matter, and that they'll do whatever they want.

Do you believe the West can negotiate and come to a peace agreement with the Taliban and Osama bin Laden? How about the West negotiating real peace with Iran? If so, what's the holdup? I don't believe it's possible for the West to negotiate real peace with the Taliban, Iran, or Hamas/Hezbollah. Fanatics perceive Western or Israeli concessions as weakness and try taking advantage of it. Hitler did the same 70 years ago. Stalin, Pol Pot, etc....

Lastly, Palestinians who would live under Hamas in a "free" Gaza will never be prosperous, unhumiliated and free to enjoy their individual civil rights. Hamas will never allow for personal freedoms. Just like Syrians, Iranians, and Yemenites living under brutal oppression. Shouldn't that factor into your analysis?
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B Whale Donating Member (500 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-18-10 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. Do you not think an independent palestinian state
would be a route to peace?

Furthermore you are mixing up settlements. How do settlements achieve security for israel? They do the precise opposite!

We ARE negotiating with the taliban, have been since the beginning. many less extreme elements have joined the afghan army. isolate the extremists (like in Northern Ireland today) and you weaken them.

You strengthen them by stealing land, building illegal settlements and humilating and brutalising the innocent population. If i lived in Gaza i'd resist, i can tell you. if i lived in an independent prosperous palestine i would not.

Israel has beenone of the main the causal factors in the rise of Hamas.

the PLO at the Oslo accords sacrificed everything for peace. It threw away so many cherished rights and demands for justice. And now abbas, the moderate, has been sidelined by israel. he is humiliated.

Israel's foriegn policy is not one of peace, it was one of zionism. It is expanding the state of israel due to theology. If it pulled back to 1967 borders, secured herself and had an independent palestine alongside, moderates would reign. israel don;t want this. they NEEd an enemy for their ideology, and i think it is shockingly sad for the ordinary israelis who simply want to live in peace.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-18-10 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Wow. Nearly every sentence in that post is nonsense.
Edited on Fri Jun-18-10 12:53 PM by shira
And you didn't answer any of my questions.

It appears you also forgot Israel's fair offers by Barak in 2000 and Olmert in 2008 which were rejected.

It's pointless to continue.
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B Whale Donating Member (500 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-10 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #29
36. For once i agree. it is pointless to continue
with someone who is committed to a position for reasons based on things removed from logic, common sense, justice and decency.

Keep defending the indefensible.....and good luck with that!...
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. It happens on both sides.
Each side has the tendency to dehumanize the other. The Palestinians are 'terrorists', 'fundamentalists', 'fanatics',
'extremists', desire 'genocide', and 'live on the global dole'. The Israelis are 'supremacists', 'a death machine', 'fanatics', 'extremists', desire 'genocide' and 'live on the American dole'.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-18-10 12:56 AM
Response to Original message
21. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-18-10 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. A mag formerly called 'Living Marxism', that bashes Bush policy, is too Rightwing? Perfect.
Edited on Fri Jun-18-10 03:31 AM by shira
Also from Wiki, that you selectively failed to quote:

Spiked has been described by journalists from The Independent and The Guardian such as George Monbiot and Johann Hari as pursuing a right wing and pro-corporate agenda under a guise of being left wing. Some have said that Spiked's stance has more in common with free-market libertarians than with the left.<16> Frank Furedi, interviewed in Spiked, responded that the stance of LM and Spiked springs from the tradition of the "anti-Stalinist left". He argued that the reason why many in the left tradition have difficulties in identifying these ideas with the left is that they completely misunderstand the humanist political position of being progressive in terms of human progress, science, rationality and freedom, and yet be completely anti-state:

...much of the left in the twentieth century tended to be influenced by Stalinist and Social-Democratic traditions, which means they could not imagine that you could be left-wing and anti-state...so they were confused by us. But that was their fault, not ours. It was a product of their own abandonment of liberty in favour of ideas about state control.<17>

Furedi listed Marxist activists, politicians and writers who he said had influenced LM and Spiked, including Roman Rosdolsky, Henryk Grossman, György Lukács, Paul Mattick, Christian Rakovsky, and Leon Trotsky.


I/P is a perfect example of Liberalism vs. Stalinist Leftism.

Liberals advocate for individual rights and freedoms like freedom of speech, dissent, an independent judiciary, women and gay rights, etc. The most vicious Israel haters from the Stalinist Left rarely if ever advocate for these liberal values WRT Palestinians, Syrians, Iranians, or Egyptians. Only Palestinian "freedom" in the form of nationalism matters (not that it matters for Kurds, Tibetans, etc.). If the Stalinist Left were more liberal, it would advocate a little for Palestinian refugee rights in Lebanon or for the rights of Gazans who are abused under Hamas. Liberals stand for consistency in results, enlightenment, and are against irrationalism. The Stalinist Left is basically for collectivism, whether under Stalin, Hitler, or Pol Pot. They tolerate Baathist, Iranian, Hamas and Taliban fascism. Being relativists, they are generally indifferent to the suffering of millions around the globe.

See the difference now?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-18-10 03:52 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-18-10 04:10 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Deleted message
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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-19-10 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #22
30. Your source is a far RW corporatist front group, regardless of what they say about themselves.
Edited on Sat Jun-19-10 01:40 AM by ConsAreLiars
Here is what these right-wingers promote via LM and 'spiked.com' before and after losing all their LM assets in a libel suit when they tried to "prove" that evidence of the atrocities against the Bosnian Muslims was faked (as referenced in the Wiki quotes in the deleted post). This is the kind of group you are calling 'real liberals' like yourself.

The primary channels for promoting the network's ideology, after their LM magazine was sued out of existence, are Spiked-online and the Institute of Ideas (IoI).

Colonised lobby groups include Sense About Science, the Genetic Interest Group, Progress, and the Science Media Centre .

Over the years they have also been accused of setting up a series of their own front groups:

* Africa Direct - denying the genocide in Rwanda
* Audacity.org - no restraints on devolopment, no to sustainability
* Campaign Against Militarism (CAM) - no to military intervention
* Families for Freedom - risks to children are grossly exaggerated
* Feminists for Justice - no laws on date rape
* Freedom & Law - no to state intervention
* Global Futures -concerns about risk are greatly exaggerated
* Internet Freedom - no restrictions on paedophilia, race hate etc.
* Irish Freedom Movement (IFM) - no to the peace process
* Libero! - libertarian football supporters!
* The Litigious Society - no to a 'compensation culture'
* London International Research Exchange (LIRE) - denying Serb nationalist atrocities
* Maverick Club - yes to dinner and 'debate'
* Transport Research Group - yes to big roads
* Workers Against Racism (WAR) - no to all immigration controls
* WORLDwrite - anti-green gap years and school exchange

From http://www.lobbywatch.org/lm_watch.html



The March 1998 edition ran a substantial article by Ron Arnold, claiming that the Unabomber is an environmentalist, ergo all environmentalists are terrorists. Ron Arnold is Executive Vice President of the Centre for the Defense of Free Enterprise, one of the wackiest far-right campaigns in the United States, established to promote “individual rights, free markets, private property and limited government”. Simultaneously, the CFDE used Channel 4’s publicity briefing for Against Nature as the “guest editorial” on its website.

This year, the avowedly anti-imperialist LM began running articles by Roger Bate of the Institute for Economic Affairs, which advocates, among other interesting ideas, that African countries should be sold to multinational corporations in order to bring “good government” to the continent. In the Against Nature series, LM’s contributers rubbed shoulders with Larry Craig, a far right Republican senator and fundraiser for the raving “Alliance for America”; Julian Simon, who was Ronald Reagan’s favourite economist, and Michael Gough, who, like Simon, belongs to a hard-right libertarian think-tank called the Cato Institute. All maintained an identical political position, lining up to identify the liberals and lefties of the environmental movement as covert Nazi sympathisers.

As you wade through back issues of Living Marxism, you can’t help but conclude that the magazine’s title is a poor guide to its contents. LM contains little that would be recognised by other Marxists or, for that matter, by leftists of any description. On one issue after another, there’s a staggering congruence between LM’s agenda and that of the far-right Libertarian Alliance. The two organisations take identical positions, for example, on gun control (it is a misconceived attack on human liberty), child pornography (legal restraint is simply a Trojan horse for the wider censorship of the Internet), alcohol (its dangers have been exaggerated by a new breed of “puritan”), the British National Party (it’s unfair to associate it with the murder of Stephen Lawrence; its activities and publications should not be restricted), the Anti-Nazi League (it is undemocratic and irrelevant), tribal people (celebrating their lives offends humanity’s potential to better itself; the Yanomami Indians are not to be envied but pitied) animal rights (they don’t have any), and global warming (it’s a good thing).

The two organizations share a strangely one-sided conception of freedom, celebrating and defending the “freedom to” of those with the power to act, while dismissing threats to the “freedom from” of those who might be affected. So, limiting the scope of racist publications insults our humanity, even though they might incite racists to beat up black people, while restricting car use is a fundamental assault on liberty, even though being hit by cars is now the commonest cause of death for children between the ages of one and fourteen. “It is those who have suffered the most,” LM tells us, “who should be listened to the least.”

Both organizations also appear to believe that the weak and vulnerable are best served by being allowed to fend for themselves, without interference from “do-gooders” and “puritans”. Left to their own devices, both adults and children are capable of resisting tobacco advertising, alcopops, paedophiles and pornographers, whatever the imbalance of power between perpetrator and victim may be. Indeed corporations, LM appears to suggest, should be free to do whatever they want, except sueing LM for libel.

But the similarities end with the ideology. While the Libertarian Alliance is a shabby, disaggregated outfit, LM is professional and well-organized. Glossy, well-written and cleverly edited, distributed largely for free, supported by its own research organization and an excellent website, the magazine seems to have no shortage of money, yet no obvious sources of major funding.

So who is this strangely armoured David? Where do his politics come from? Can LM’s editors really be such deranged Marxist fundamentalists that they are seeking to hasten the triumph of capitalism, the better to speed its downfall? Or are they trying to destroy alternative outlets for radical action, in the hope that the revolution, when it comes, will be untainted by heresy? Whatever the explanation may be, LM, with its extreme right-wing allies and extreme right-wing views dressed in left-wing clothes, is doing more to confuse and destabilise the left than any overtly right-wing organisation.

Had the magazine been named “Living Libertarianism” or “Living Reaganism”, one wonders how willing the liberal establishment would have been to leap to its defence. Oppressive as ITN’s suit might be, LM’s survival is no great liberal cause. For its new-found champions on the liberal left can be assured of just one thing: that of all political classes, LM hates them the most.

From http://www.monbiot.com/archives/1998/11/01/far-left-or-far-right/


From a much more recent interview with Monbiot:

We all have networks of people that we interact with. What makes this so different? Why do you find it so worrying?

There are two reasons why I find it worrying. The first is that the agenda they pursue appears not to be pursued overtly. For example, when they ran the magazine Living Marxism it was very far from a Marxism journal - it was just about as far from a Marxist journal as you could possibly get. And it seemed to me that the title was a direct and deliberate attempt to distract attention from the fact that this was a far right wing libertarian publication which was using the terms of the left to make it look as if the positions it was taking were new and unusual ones. Whereas in actual fact they were very well trodden ones, but well trodden by people like the Libertarian Alliance who in theory were at the other end of the political spectrum.

I have never heard of the Libertarian Alliance before.

Mad as a pile of buckets. But what Living Marxism did, I felt, was to give the impression that it was saying something new because it was dealing with the issues from a left perspective whereas it was very plainly dealing with them from a right perspective. And it was taking a line almost identical to that taken by right wing organizations - particularly some of the business come lobbyist organisations in the US, such as the Heritage Foundation, the CATO Institute, the Competitive Enterprise Institute - and so they were able to play very effectively on this semblance of left parties. People find it is very hard to believe that a magazine called Living Marxism would be a right wing magazine. And so they said ‘oh look - the left has come up with something new - really I think that maybe we should be following this line ourselves’. It led to a great deal of confusion really, including among some people I know.

But it also gave, particularly Channel 4 who were the primary targets of the network’s manoeuvres, it gave them an excuse to run a lot of right wing diatribes, indeed some extreme right wing diatribes, while claiming that it was doing nothing of the sort.

This is particularly 'Against Nature'?

‘Against Nature’. There was a series called ‘Zeitgeist’. There was a programme called ‘Attack of the Killer Tomatoes’. There was a programme called ‘Storm in a D cup’. All those and more involved the network’s members. And all took an almost identical line. And a line which was identical to that of Living Marxism. And in every case Channel 4, if you challenged them on this, could say ‘well, we should represent the whole of the political spectrum including the far left’. And you’d say ‘but this isn’t the far left - this is the far right’. And they would say ‘no, no, no - Living Marxism’. And that made things doubly difficult for critics. One because it distracts attention from the fact that Channel 4 had itself turned very sharply to the right under Michael Grade and Michael Jackson. From about 1992, it really swung quite sharply to the right.

So it wasn’t just political naivety on the part of Channel 4?

Well, they always claim that they want to get up people’s noses and upset people - and they do that very well. They upset the left all the time. But I see precious little evidence of them getting up the noses of the right and upsetting the right - it just doesn’t seem to happen. And it was partly the agenda, in particular, of Michael Jackson because I saw how the agenda was imported from BBC 2, where he was previously the controller.

But also, of course, it just happens to fit the needs of the advertisers. If you launch ferocious attacks on environmentalists there couldn’t be anything better from the point of view of the advertisers because the greatest political threat to the continued profitability of some of the major advertisers - like car companies, oil companies – is from environmentalism. So Channel 4 was able to say ‘well, of course we are not taking a right wing position on this - because this is the position articulated by a left wing outfit’.

So to get back to your original question, that is one reason why it concerns me. Because what you see is not what you get. And so that, for me, was a principle reason for trying to publicise what was happening and what they were doing.

http://www.lobbywatch.org/lm_george_monbiot.html


(edit out extraneous clause.)
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-19-10 04:36 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. so let's see how liberal your I/P views are as you attempt to answer post #24 above
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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-10 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. I responded to that post by hitting the alert button.
I was under the impression that vicious personal attacks like those you post so frequently were to be responded to by alerting the mods, so that is what I did. Maybe they were taking a day off or they approve of what you do here.

Whatever. As usual, you avoid substance and facts.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-10 06:05 AM
Response to Reply #32
35. How is #24 a vicious personal attack?
If Palestinians are human to you, what are you doing about Hamas imposing its own blockade on Gazans? Those Palestinians have no freedoms - speech, dissent, expression. Gays and women have no rights. Children are abused, brainwashed, made into intolerant and hateful militants, etc. Sharia Law rules. Hamas just recently destroyed NGO and Human Rights offices/buildings and they're not allowing any aid from the flotilla in. Where's your outrage? Without any help from Israel, Hamas imposes its own social, economic, political, and intellectual blockade on Gaza. The same goes on outside Israel like in Iran, Syria, and Yemen - where the people are no less human than Palestinians. Palestinian refugees in Lebanon are treated even worse.

Even if Israel were to completely lift its own blockade on Gaza, none of the above things would change.

If Palestinians are human to you, what are you doing about that? What have you done or said about it in the past? Anything at all? :shrug:

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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-10 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. Although you are no longer allowed to use your favorite tactic,
calling people Nazis and telling DUers to go back to Stormfront, you still try to divert attention from the content of a post you are replying to by insulting the poster. Although it seems to be within the rules when you do that, it is not at all responsive to the facts being offered. It's pretty much all you do, other than quoting right-wingers like that obscure group which share your views and values. Your comments had zero relevance to my post, and was nothing but a personal attack.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-10 05:14 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. Post #24 is not a personal attack, diversion, or insult. You brought up...
....seeing Palestinians as 'humans' and I called your bluff. You're now obfuscating. If you see Palestinians as human, why do you show zero concern for Palestinians who suffer under their oppressive, irrational, misogynist, antisemitic, homophobic, totalitarian, and imperialist leadership?

Ironically, your deleted posts were the ones chock full of insults, personal attacks, and deflection from the contents of the OP, so you're projecting.
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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-10 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. Instead of more insults and vile insinuations,
Edited on Tue Jun-22-10 01:44 AM by ConsAreLiars
My post #30 began with "Your source is a far RW corporatist front group, regardless of what they say about themselves." and provided a lot of documentation.

You never replied to the content, to the fact that those who best express your views are like those of that peculiar group which you cited.

Instead, your reply in #31 was to totally avoid everything in that post and begin with "so let's see how liberal your I/P views are as you attempt to answer post #24 above" followed with a a whole load of your usual personal attacks.

By demanding a reply to your reply to a deleted post of mine (that was as bit too accurate and blunt to be allowed here) you are still trying to divert. Anything relevant to say? I know your preferred reply is "go back to Stormfront" http://www.democraticunderground.com/searchresults.html?q=Stormfront+shira&sitesearch=democraticunderground.com&sa=Search&domains=democraticunderground.com&client=pub-7805397860504090&forid=1&ie=ISO-8859-1&oe=ISO-8859-1&cof=GALT%3A%23008000%3BGL%3A1%3BDIV%3A%23336699%3BVLC%3A663399%3BAH%3Acenter%3BBGC%3AFFFFFF%3BLBGC%3A336699%3BALC%3A0000FF%3BLC%3A0000FF%3BT%3A000000%3BGFNT%3A0000FF%3BGIMP%3A0000FF%3BFORID%3A11&hl=en and after over 100 uses of that "rebuttal" here that you were told you were embarrassing even to the mods and have used workarounds since.

(On a personal note, I'll take some credit for crimping your style for posting those search results a few times when you used that kind of attack. Kudos to Lithos for at least realizing (after allowing a hundred such violations of the rules of DU) that it did no good for those who want to promote your ideology.)

Your new variant is no better.

(edit to fix syntax)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-10 05:36 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-23-10 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. What a self-caricature you are. Same stunt over and over. (nt)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-10 12:46 AM
Response to Original message
33. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-10 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. Deleted sub-thread
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