Which kind of binational state?

[Gimel]

In the rush of refreshing statements heard lately,
the warnings have come from the length of the
political spectrum - from Ami Ayalon to Ehud
Olmert and the Geneva accord initiators and Jewish
intellectuals in America - Israel faces "a threat
that could spell the end of the Jewish state,"
meaning the danger of the binational state. Within
a few years, there will be a Palestinian majority
between the Jordan and the Mediterranean and
according to Olmert "more and more Palestinians
are no longer interested in a solution of two
states for two peoples." The result is "a disaster
- one state for two people."

<snip>

One such alternative is a system that recognizes
collective ethnic-national rights and maintains
power sharing on the national-central level,
with defined political rights for the minority
and sometimes territorial-cantonal divisions.
That model, called "consociational democracy"
has not succeeded in many places, but lately
has been applied successfully to reach
agreements in ancient ethnic-national conflicts
such as Bosnia, through the Dayton agreement,
and Northern Ireland, with the Good Friday
agreement. That should be food for thought for
the experts who contemptuously wave off the
binational option.

Why did arrangements based on one state for two
peoples work in various methods and places -
South Africa, Bosnia, and Northern Ireland -
while the Oslo accords, based on territorial
division, achieved at the same time,
collapsed?

The option of power sharing and division into
federated cantons is closer to the model of the
territorial division of two states but it
avoids the surgery, so it allows the existence
of soft borders, and creates a deliberate
blurring that eases dealing with symbolic
issues, the status of Jerusalem or the
questions of refugees and the settlers. The
mutual recognition allows preservation of the
national-cultural character on the national
level and preservation of the ethnically
homogenous regions. Everything depends, of
course, on recognition being mutual and
symmetric.

<snip>

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/363062.html

comments:
Four models proposed here, for the archetectural design of a binational state. The ethnic identity and the community of each is maintained, while some common government prevails to mediate and integrate the two as democratic etities, while sharing some features, like economy and water resources. Sounds a lot like the basis for that already exists.

[Suzette]

1. The Bi-National State: The Wolf Shall Dwell With The Lamb

(This is an updated version of an article I wrote two years ago that was published in the respected Journal of Palestine Studies, which is published in the United States under the auspices UC Berkeley)

cut

There is no chance at all that the present, post-holocaust, Israeli generation, or its successor, will accept this solution, which conflicts absolutely with the myth and the ethos of Israel. The aim of the founders of the State of Israel was that the Jews - or a part of them - could at last take their destiny into their own hands. A bi-national state means the abandonment of this aim, and, in practice, the dismantling of Israel itself. The Jews would return to the traumatic experience of a people without a state throughout the world, with all that that implies. And not as a result of a crushing military defeat, but as a free choice. Not very likely.

And what about the Palestinian side? Some Palestinians do indeed talk longingly of a bi-national state, but I believe that for some of them, at least, this is just a code word for the elimination of the State of Israel, and for some others an escape from bitter reality to the dream of returning to their homes and villages of the past . But the great majority of the Palestinian people want to live, at last, in a national state of their own, a state that expresses their national identity, under their flag and their government, like other peoples.

cut

In the end, we shall reach the objective: to live together in peace, side by side. Perhaps a later generation will one day decide to live in one joint state. But today the propaganda for this utopia diverts attention from the practical, immediate objective, at a time when the whole world has accepted the idea of „two states for two peoples“. This remote utopia blocks the way to a solution that is achievable in the near future and sorely necessary, because in the meantime „facts on the ground“ are being created.

cut


http://www.studien-von-zeitfragen.de/Palastina/Bi-national_State_/bi-national_state_.html

[Muddleoftheroad]

2. Well said

The binational state is a fantasy -- and an ugly one at that.

[Suzette]

3. Glad to see your post!

:yourock:

[Saudade]

7. "Fantasy"

"The binational state is a fantasy -- and an ugly one at that."

Back in the real world, the binational state is the inevitable consequence of Israel's refusal to withdraw from the OT and allow a Palestinian state.

How ironic!

[Suzette]

8. Well, actually back in the real world,

The Arabs had a chance for ANOTHER state by chopping up Israel as soon as it was created.

I'm sure you already know that Israel agreed,yet the other side refused at the behest of their leaders who thought they could Judenrein Israel after WWII.

Didn't happen. Israel won.

That was the first in a long line of decisions wherein the Arabs turned every opportunity into a missed opportunity...they've been doing it for 55 more years...and, if past is indeed prologue...they will continue well into the future.

[BlackFrancis]

9. That's the real world?

Seriously, read any biography of David Ben-Gurion. Read damn near any serious study of the 1948 war, one that doesn't have pop-up pictures or was written by Joan Peters and draw your own conclusions. The zionist leadership was not serious about accepting any sort of permanent arrangement based on the UN partition. It was the original "phased plan" that the Israeli right fears is behind Palestinian acceptance of a two-state solution today.

The war started long before the UN decision anyway and one way or another Jewish ownership of property was around 7% of Palestine. This problem had to be resolved or there never would have been an "Israel" and it had to be solved by ethnic cleansing. The fact that you would be vehemently against a bi-national state and that such a thing is just shocking and terrible only underscores the inherent contradiction in bemoaning imagined unreasonable, Arab rejectionism

[Saudade]

12. the Past

"I'm sure you already know that Israel agreed,yet the other side refused at the behest of their leaders who thought they could Judenrein Israel after WWII."

All of that is completely irrelevant to the point of the article and the point of my post, which was this:

The concept of a bi-national state is a distinct and probably inevitable result of Israel's refusal to end the occupation.

This is why Israel is basically committing national suicide and why it's constant and totally dishonest claims to "self-defense" are laughable and ironic.

[edzontar]

14. So what are you saying...that the "Arabs"

Would have been "right" if they won?

That might makes right?

[Gimel]

4. An evolution in statehood

The final paragraph of Averney's article is interesting:

I am convinced that the 21st century will bring vast changes in the structure of the world and the way of life of human society. The importance of the nation-state will gradually diminish. A world order, world law and world-wide structures will play a central role. I believe that Israel will whole-heartedly take part in the march of humanity. We shall not be tardy. But there is no point in expecting the Israeli public to be 50 years ahead of the times.

Benveniste has written on this subject previously, and his article was posted on DU IP forum. The form that a binational state, with creative planning of a governmental archetecture, might include cultural autonomy within the framework of a single governing body. This would preserve the identity of each cultural group, yet allowing for an equal or proportional voice in government. The structure of the parliament would be crafted to the specific needs of the Israel-Palestine population, climate and cultures.

where there's a will there's a way. Destruction is not the answer. Stop the bombers. Stop the insanity.

Edited for the html

[Suzette]

5. Thank you, Gimel.

It is such a toss-up for me when there is so much I want to quote.

:toast:

[bluesoul]

6. I have said it once and I'll say it again

Uri is a hero! :toast: :bounce:

[Muddleoftheroad]

10. The Star Trek future

I too used to believe in the future where we would all get along and there would be one world government, etc.

I don't any more. Mankind is too factional and there are too many groups that flat out want to kill one another. Instead of nation states going away, I think they will remain prominent as one group tries to protect itself from another.

Clearly, the UN has been unable to do that.

[Suzette]

11. I agree with you.

It seems people are tribal in nature. Just look at the animal kingdom: they co-exist, but they sure do eat a lot of each other!

[Gimel]

13. Community life

The life of the community is a recognized need in humans as social interaction. Some call it a herd instinct, but we ought to evolve around that. There are strong people who are leaders and there are followers. The community encompasses all personalities. A religion or philosophy that binds a community allows for inclusion of various personalities.

A community that has lost it's guiding light, has no moral or philosophical cohesion becomes fragmented.

The Jews have a right to a Jewish community as the Moslems have a right to their religious practice. If this can be worked out in a bi-national system (there are four types suggested in the lead article), similar to what is being modeled in Northern Ireland, there can be hope. The difficulty of dividing the land and being fair and not moving any people 10 feet one way or another, not separating them from their cultural group is tremendously challenging. The borders cannot be drawn fairly. That is a major problem.

Although I see a 2-state solution as ideal, it may not be workable for that reason. What evolves may be different, as neither side will give in on crucial issues, and there's no way for both sides to win.

[edzontar]

15. I still believe "we can all get along"...

And so should you, Mr. Muddle.

You use Dr. King as your avatar, after all, and that is what he stood for.

He made this speech about a "dream" once, you may have heard of it.

Good stuff.

[Muddleoftheroad]

16. Hope and belief

I would love a future like Dr. King hoped for. I hope for it as well.

I no longer believe it will happen in any forseeable future.

[Jack Rabbit]

17. Very interesting article

The Palestinians would be making a mistake to abandon a two-state solution. The only single state solution that could be acceptable to them is a bi-national state in which Jews and Arabs would have equality with each other. However, that won't fly with the Jews in Israel, since it would mean the end of a Jewish state.

This question is just academic: Could there be a way making a democratic single state palatable to the Jews? For example, in addition to full constitutional guarantees of freedom of worship, would it satisfy Jewish concerns if a clause were written into the state's constitution declaring that Jews fleeing persecution in other countries will have a right to immigrate to the bi-national state? That seems to me to be the first concern of Zionism; it is hisorically a legitimate concern.

[Gimel]

18. Zionist refuge

That has indeed been a central feature. The ingathering of Jews to the homeland, and not just those seeking refuge. The bi-national state might consist of actully two provinces or states within the single national concept. The Palestinian state would probably also insist on the right-of -return for exiled Palestinins. The friction of the demographic question might be solved by stipulating a Jewish sub-state (Israel) and a Palestinian sub-state, with a single governing body to regulate the commerce and the shring of resources, and other issues that arise.

[The Magistrate]

19. To My View, Sir

The history of Lebanon does not auger well for any paper guarantees of anything in this region. But my generally low expectations of humanity are no secret.

[Muddleoftheroad]

20. Short and sweet

Well put and the clear reason why this won't happen in our lifetimes.