Israeli airstrike kills senior Hamas rocket maker

[hack89]

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip — Israeli warplanes fired missiles, killing a senior commander of the Hamas military wing and wounding 11 people in five targets hit across Gaza overnight, the group and the military said Saturday.

The Israeli military said the strikes were in response to a powerful rocket fired from Gaza that hit the Israeli coastal city of Ashkelon on Friday, causing damage but no injuries.

Gaza's Islamic militant Hamas rulers said their slain member was Issa Batran, 42, a commander of the groups' military wing in central Gaza and a senior rocket maker.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ioi_0jtO9RjMwPNRoXNCndRPRq3gD9HA0GO84

[Turbineguy]

1. Rats!

Now Hamas will be forced to get some Palestinian kids to blow themselves up.

[aquart]

2. Be assured that it won't be their own kids.

[demosincebirth]

5. Thats for sure!

[Violet_Crumble]

7. I'll ask you the same thing I asked the other poster...

As the only ones who've blown up Palestinian kids lately has been the IDF, could you tell me when the last time was that a Palestinian child committed a suicide bombing? I'm also wondering why random American DUers are taking it upon themselves to announce what Hamas would or wouldn't do. None of you strike me as being particularly knowledgable or objective about how Hamas works...

[polly7]

4. Like the IDF did with Palestinian children? nt.

[Violet_Crumble]

6. The only folk who've been blowing up Palestinian kids lately has been the IDF...

And when was the last time any child committed a suicide bombing?

[Igel]

8. It's a good question.

I can't find any reference to even an attempted child suicide bomber in 2010 (I'll put the age cutoff for "child" at 18 or below).

Score one for VC.

The Hamas rhetoric hasn't been ratcheted down, however, and there's no public statement that suicide bombing would be a no-no.

If a person has shown a given behavior, hasn't said he's changed but is prohibited from displaying that behavior, I don't assume he's changed. Quite the reverse: I assume that given sufficient lattitude he'd take up the behavior again. In other words, the default hypothesis is that the person is unchanged until there's evidence that he has changed. I apply the same standard to organizations and countries. (Of course, it's important to actually understand the behavior and its motivations.)

That's not a score against VC, and I'm loath to split the point .5-.5 because I figure the onus of proof of change is still unmet. So I won't award that point.

[Violet_Crumble]

11. Thanks for the thoughtful response, Igel...

The point I was making was that with the horror of suicide bombings a thing of the past, some people strive for drama and emotional impact by pretending that they're actually a current thing and this means Israel = Victim. After all, rockets that mostly land in empty fields just don't carry the same sort of horror than a precision guided human bomb exploding themselves amongst civilians does...

As far as I'm aware, Hamas hasn't been responsible for any suicide bombings since they came to power in Gaza. Whether they're opposed to that as a method of 'resistance' is another matter, but supporting it is a very different thing to actually sending kids out, at least in my opinion it is.

[hack89]

9. One attempt in 2007, five in 2005

Of course all suicide bombings are way down due to Israeli security measures - the wall has save a lot of lives.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_suicide_bombers_in_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict#See_also

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_militant_groups_suicide_attacks#2008_.281_bombing.29

[Violet_Crumble]

10. Where does it say that Hamas sent out any child suicide bombers?

It gets a bit tiresome to see people incessantly waving the 'they're going to send out child suicide bombers' boogeyman around. Doesn't it bother you in the slightest that Israel is responsible for the killing of infinitely more Palestinian children than any sinister person sending out some kid to blow themselves up is?

[hack89]

14. My link details children suicide bombers

The only reason there are not more is the same reason there has been a drastic reduction in all suicide bombers since 2004 - increased Israeli security measures.

It is disingenuous on your part to minimize the issue as there have been 40 documented children suicide bombers since 2001(most of which were not successful). The reason there have been none recently has nothing to do with Hamas.

As for the Palestinian children, yes it bothers me. It makes me wonder why Hamas continues to wage war when they know so many civilians will be killed. If you don't want children killed then don't fire rockets from densely populated areas.

[Violet_Crumble]

16. And I was asking when was the last time Hamas had sent them out...

If you'd been paying attention you would have noticed that was what the poster I was replying to was asking...

It's completely and utterly disingenuous on yr part to pretend that me pointing out the pathetic nature of acting as though Hamas are sending out children to blow themselves up is minimising anything. Then again I wouldn't expect anything else from someone who's apparently incapable of doing anything but blaming Hamas for Israel killing innocent children. They're both to blame and folk who try to blame Hamas for it when Israel kills children are rally quite pathetic and ugly...

on edit: You appear to be contradicting the logic of the poster I was responding to intially. While they seem to have some psychic link to Hamas and are announcing that Hamas will send out children to blow themselves up, yr saying that the reason Hamas doesn't do the suicide bombing thing anymore is because Israel, being so absolutely awesome all the time, has fixed things up so suicide bombings don't happen anymore. There seems to be a major lack of logic in the thinking being used by some folk. And I'm left to wonder at why those who bring up suicide bombings as though they still happen to try to gain dramatic and moral advantage in a discussion think other DUers are so fucking stupid as to fall for their crap...

[hack89]

25. You seem unable to rationally discuss this matter

The point is that Hamas has not and will not hesitate to do anything they can to kill jews. To include using children as suicide bombers. They have in the past and would not hesitate today if they thought they could succeed.

Children are dieing because Hamas insists on waging war in a manner design to maximize the risk to civilians. No rockets would mean no dead children. Can't be any simpler.

Only a fool blind to history would argue otherwise.

[Violet_Crumble]

31. My apologies. I must remember to use OTT hyperbole and massive drama in future!

As you appear to believe that sort of crap is what passes for rational discussion, then I'm very relieved that yr labelling me as being free of that sort of thing....


The point is yr making up stuff that isn't true to try to play on people's sympathies and portray Israel as the victim.

Here's several facts for you to chew on:

Hamas have NOT sent children out to be suicide bombers for a long time, and to make out they still do is dishonest and misleading.
You don't have any insight into how Hamas think or any ability to predict what they'll do in any situation.
Most if not all religiously driven groups indulge in bigotry, but to claim Hamas want to do anything they can to kill Jews is sheer nonsense and again quite dishonest. Their violence was aimed at civilians in Israel and if they had a Nazi-like 'kill all Jews' thing then they would have targetted heavily populated Jewish communities in places like New York. To pretend the conflict is due to a genocidal hatred of Jews is both ignorant and foolish. Pretending that the occupation by Israel doesn't exist or play a big factor in the violence isn't going to fool anyone much...

[polly7]

12. IDF used Palestinians as human shields.

http://www.btselem.org/english/human_shields/timeline_of_events.asp

http://levantnotes.blogspot.com/2010/07/idf-soldiers-used-gazans-as-human.html

http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3387356,00.html

http://mondoweiss.net/2009/02/ac-writesin-todays-haaretz-amira-hass-documents-the-israeli-armys-use-of-palestinians-as-unwilling-human-shields-in-raids-i.html

So many more links, it's surprising there has been no objection to the IDF using children, women, innocents, as human shields.

"Israel's hypocrisy would be nauseating were it not so hackneyed. In
fact, almost paradoxically, Israel embraces its hypocrisy, indeed,
defends it, for instance when Shaul Mofaz, then Defence Minister, personally appeared in court
to challenge an Israeli Supreme Court ruling banning the use of human
shields. The history and evidence of Israel's use of human shields is
well documented by several sources in the media and elsewhere,
including Yedioth Ahronoth, the BBC, the Guardian, Adalah, Amnesty International, and B'tselem."

[oberliner]

13. Who is AC?

Who is that person you are quoting in last paragraph you included in your post.

The Mondoweiss link you provided begins with "AC writes.." - who is AC?

[Violet_Crumble]

18. I just looked and I don't know. Why don't you ask over at Mondoweiss? n/t

[polly7]

26. No clue.

Go ask. I was more interested in following up the sources he / she used.

[demosincebirth]

28. Very credidble sources

:sarcasm:

[polly7]

29. But of course they all have to be full of lies.

Don't read them or anything ..... the documented cases of Palestinians being used as human shields should be kept secret, like all the other atrocities never discussed in the western media.

:sarcasm:

[Turbineguy]

15. Palestinian militants

have a history of getting their own killed. On the one hand the dead are martyrs so they did not die in vain; on the other, they are propaganda value in the West.

Pronouncing those who die as martyrs covers a tremendous amount of incompetence and culpability as well. The militants have it worked out so they can't lose. The rest just suffer.

[Violet_Crumble]

17. Why are you replying to yr own posts?

I take it that 'getting their own killed' actually means 'The IDF kills them but I'm going to blame them rather than the IDF'? If so, that's just plain pathetic...

[Turbineguy]

19. Sheesh.

I'll stay away from this topic and let you discuss it by yourself.

[Violet_Crumble]

20. Yr the one discussing it by yrself, not me...

See, I asked you a question. You ignored it and replied to one of yr own posts going on about something else. Would you prefer it if I leave you to posting replies to yrself from this point on?

[demosincebirth]

30. +1

[prof.mes solzhenitsy]

3. THE KOC HOLDING'S SECOND SOVIET-TURKEY VULTURE BETRAYS INNOCENT JEWS!

ADMONITIONS IN A POEM/ By Prof. MES SOLZHENITSY

IF THE CIVILISATION HADN’T STOOD HIGH ABOVE THE WORLD...

If it hadn’t carried away with sweat, toil, and tears in the eyes of Europeans
Which were like bright blue jewels in a proto-type glimmering face.
Everyone must think that if it hadn’t existed-the spirit of Semitic People
Namely the beautiful poems and chemistry enjoying soul
Of good Arabs and the sons of Israel like Avicenna, Camus, and Schweitzer
What would have stricken our future?
Let men be sad, and ladies and look at the headline related to a fascist and say,
‘We are glad that none of the civilized people could be racist like that guy*.’
Humanity embracing mathematicians came from the ancient Greece
The other astronomy leaders were all from Egypt then. Where’s
The ancestor of the black fascist butcher who threatened Judeo-Christians now Could he invent anything? Think a little, and understand and the threat below
The villain Turkish Racist Party fake Harold stays there cursing Judeo-Christians
So there he is under the protection of the KOC Holding’s Generals-new STALINS

THE BASTARD FROM MHP LIKES TO YELL*
Then he wishes that the blood of the sons of Israel should fall.
We Pro-West Kurdish and Turkish Muslims cannot endure the blasphemies
Of Turkish racists-the Jackals of the KOC and other Turkish Stalinists
We must try to keep you awake, I thought.
And decided to write this poem as being the greatest political affairs’ poet!
But as I opened my wings to rhymes before your windows,
Ah! What did he see? One press officer of your embassy still snores...


BY PROF. MES SOLZHENITSY

[ConsAreLiars]

21. Not being able to make any sense out of a word of that, I did a search.

Found this at http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/discussionpost/TURKEY_VULTURES_REDS_WILL_ATTACK_JEWS_84785 :

DR, DR. MD & PH. D. HONORARY PRINCE OF DERBENT
M.ERDOGAN SURAT/PROF. MES SOLZHENITSY
(SEE IN GOOGLE)
ADMONITIONS IN A POEM/ By Prof. MES SOLZHENITSY
COLLABORATION OF THE RED GENERALS WITH AL-QAEDA GAZETTE-VAKIT!

You will think me mad when I tell you to whom I am listening.
Why, has the Anti Semitic KEMALIST got fugitive wing?
Nay, he is not very volatile at his time of life.
Who is he? Now I’m about to whistle my fife
To announce his name a member of a family devoted itself
To Turkish military intelligence: deceased UĞUR MUMCU FAMILY
Yes the brother in law of CHP’s red MP-madam GULDAL-red rosy.
And of what does he accused innocent Jews?
Murdering UĞUR! Birr…
Uğur’u MOSSAD öldürdü’
SEE THE COLLABORATION OF RED KEMLISTS AND AL QAEDA’S GAZETTE-VAKIT!
Beside that amoral lies
The power of Turkish Military General Staff put on you, alas
How little does the common herd of you know of the real and false!
The red general who organized to slaughter Christians made
The same Al Qaeda Gazette
And have made great strides in vileness,
Before you could have seen his way to this.
Indeed, my dear readers, he must have made great strides.
I suppose that the slain Christians recently in Anatolia were your relatives;
And Al Qaeda Gazette says: Major Murderer General is a friend of yours.

RED GENERAL HASAN IĞSIZ HAS BEEN INTRODUCED AS BEING YOUR PROTECTOR!


BE VERY CAREFULL MY DEAR FRIENDS ABOUT THE SECOND SOVIET-TURKEY VULTURE
BEST REGARDS
YOURS SOLZHI


solzhenits08
06/29/10
replied to: solzhenits08

PROF. MES-SOLZHENITSY
(BLESS THE HOLLY MISSION FROM ALEXANDER S. TO M. E. SURAT)
TURNED INTO AN INTERNATIONAL FIGURE
AND NOW TALKS TO THE WORLD’S INTELLECTUALS
American Liberty Radio-EU Forums-Global Security
prof.mes-solzhennitsy (see in google)

MESSRS;
Nowadays terrible thing are happening all over the Turkey which is actually the private farm of KOC FAMILY and peculiarly in the Eastern Anatolia dominated by Anti-Democracy red bandit-Major Red General (The commander of the 3rd Army) on an ominous way against the Americans and their allies!
I have no desire to try conclusions with them about MUSTAFA KOC’s ATATURK PROTECTING laws to hinder the internet services in Turkey. I dare say that we all shouldn’t let ourselves to be made common victims after being devoid of internet, and need not apt to give up our freedom.
Koç: Referandum yarardan çok zarar getirebilir - Hürriyet
25 Haz 2010 ... TÜSİAD Yüksek İstişare Konseyi Başkanı Mustafa Koç, seçimden önce yapılacak referandumun Türkiye'ye yarardan çok zarar verebileceğine dikkat ...
www.hurriyet.com.tr/ekonomi/15131101.asp - 7 saat önce
****************************************************************But one must have a benevolent habit of pouring out oneself to everybody, and would even pay for a listener, and I am afraid that the Americans know this: The secret fascist minister*-the puppet of KOC’s red jackals-red judges and red generals says that he is able to sacrifice GOOGLE to serve ATATURK’S SOUL which is under the threat of global communication!
*PLEASE LOOK AT THE ABOMINABLE PHOTO OF THE MINISTER OF COMMUNICATION!
I dare say that this betrayal won’t end in nothing but give harm to the global democracy and global civilization led by the USA:
CNN TURK: OSMAN PAMUKOĞLU-Amerika ile görüşeceğiz 19.30 26 Haziran


Kanal D ve Star TV. Amerikan M16 19 Haberleri 26 Haziran

As I was saying, if you would only laugh at me as you-with your silence-hint that you do so, the right time might have come for you to see the lines from DOĞAN’S MEDIA slandering, cursing, blaspheming, insulting Americans!
18.30 STV C4 Patlayıcı Doğu Anadolu
Erzincan’da Hücre Evi
In a village home the red assassinators had been hiding their plans to slaughter Jews living in Istanbul but after several kilo C4 explosives belonging to the red paramilitaries were captured by the police the troops directed by red officers ordered the house to be burned with its secret files!

Best Regards/Yours SOLZHI

Can't say it helped, but I'd guess you have a few others on your team here. Welcome to I/P. There is still more at that link, if anyone wants more.

[prof.mes solzhenitsy]

22. THE SECOND SOVIET-TURKEY VULTURE'S REDS ARE MORE DANGEROUS THAN HAMAS TERRORISTS!

PROF. MES-SOLZHENITSY
(BLESS THE HOLLY MISSION FROM ALEXANDER S. TO M. E. SURAT)
TURNED INTO AN INTERNATIONAL FIGURE
AND NOW TALKS TO THE WORLD’S INTELLECTUALS
American Liberty Radio-EU Forums-Global Security
prof.mes-solzhennitsy (see in google)

MESSRS;

AFTER THE BLOODY EXERCISES IN INEGOL AND DORTYOL THE SECOND SOVIET-TURKEY VULTURE’S RED AND BLACK FASCIST PARAMILITARY GROUPS ARE READY TO ATTACK JUDEO-CHRISTIANS IN ISTANBUL!

Last night around 12 HOURS PM the press provocateurs of KOC Holding-Al Qaeda’s AHMET HOCA, FATIH ALTAYLI, and MURAT BARDAKÇI viz. the ex provocateur agents of KOC backed AYDIN DOĞAN’s Media declared on HABERTURK TV that the Jews shall go to the Hell directly.

Then I surmise that you are to understand why I am crying. Actually let me ask all of you: why I am wet with my own tears? Because I know the terrible meaning of that hell linked PASS-WORD uttered by an Al-Qaeda’s HODJA! I am awake and I have a heart as every other industrious author’s mission- devoted to humanity- do. But I do not know what tears will you shed after the Judeo-Christians would be slaughtered just within the torrid of this very hot summer; politically and climatically very hot indeed.

MESSRS;

I live in a palace in the capital city because of the Second Soviet-Turkey Vulture’s privileges given to me and my family labelled by Turkish red and black fascists as Turk and Muslim nest where there can be no sadness. In the daytime after my well known Family Health Centre studies I can play with my concubines in a beautiful bed-of course in accordance with BAYKAL’s secret love rules-, and in the evening I can dance with my Tartar wife. But I do not know how one could play the part of ignorant while the slaughter plan files in Major general HASAN IĞSIZ’S two official PCs are still hidden and the last pass-word for shedding Judeo-Christians’ blood was announced on the other side. So I call you to stop the attack! HELP!
Best Regards/Yours SOLZHI

[Violet_Crumble]

23. That's some very poorly written material there...

All I could work out from it is that yr going through a very hot and torrid summer and rather than using air conditioning, you cope with it by playing with yr concubines in a beautiful bed.

Have you considered contacting those publishers that do Mills & Boon romances and seeing if you can get a book deal with them? Yr writing is of a standard that you wouldn't be out of place there...

Regards

Violet the AussieTurkeyVultureChickenPlucker

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LeftishBrit]

27. Huh?