International day against the wall

[Resistance]

good pictures and information here...

http://www.gush-shalom.org/actions/8november_eng.html

About a thousand demonstrators - half of them Israelis,
half Palestinians - converged on Saturday morning on the East Jerusalem neighborhood Sawahra,
where a section of the "separation wall" is going to be built.
It will cut tens of thousands of Palestinian off from the world -
from schools, universities, hospitals, businesses, workplaces - and even from their cemetery.
The demonstration was organized by the Coalition Against the Wall,
a grouping of radical Israeli peace movements, including Ta'ayush, Gush Shalom,
the Women's Coalition for Peace and others.

[drdon326]

1. Approximately....

how many terrorists were there pissed off cause they
the wall inconvienced them?? hmmm???

Get back to me on that...

[bluesoul]

2. How about the thousands

of civilians affected? But they're only Palestinians, right? Who cares about them...

[Muddleoftheroad]

3. They do have an option

They can choose peace and fighting terror.

[drdon326]

4. Given....

the fact that 2 recent polls showed a 62-75% support
of terrorism , I think they chose already.

[bluesoul]

5. In circumstances like this

people bend to support just anything. How much support does Sharon have in Israel for his policies BTW?

And so you're for collective punishment then, or what?

[Resistance]

70. speaking of support ...

The U.S. unconditionally supports Israeli terrorist attacks on Palestinian civilian targets ... but I guess that isn't anything to complain about huh

[number6]

18. they can choose to fight oppression...

..

[Paschall]

6. How many terrorist attacks have occurred...

...since the construction of the Wall began?

And how many Jewish lives in Istanbul did the Wall protect?

Get back to me on that...

[Gimel]

53. Beginning the Wall

...did not stop terrorist attacks. Completing the Wall will significantly deter terrorists from crossing into Israel, as long as inspections continue at entry points.

When Operation Defensive Shield began, deadly terrorist attacks were occuring at the rate of three per day, inside Israel. Now, a year and a half later, that might have equalled 1,500 lives if only one death occurred with each attack.

Istanbul is beyohnd the range of this wall which separates the Palestinians from the Israelis. One reason we haven't had the car bombings destroying major buildings in Tel Aviv is the existence of the wall and IDF checkpoints. Thousands of Jewish lives have been saved. All Jews should come to Isrel, then they would at least have the protection of the IDF. It is their homeland. And Israel exists to protect the lives of Jews. However, they can't be helped if they don't come to Israel.

[brainshrub]

48. Exactly!

The wall will only inconvience the terrorists, it won't stop them. The wall will also make a great recruiting tool for future generations of terrorists, who will die remembering the humiliation ISarel has put them through.

In the meantime more land will be stolen and more of the Palestinians will die.

Sick.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bluesoul]

8. Sir this is about I/P

not about Saudia Arabia. That's in FA's other sections...

[GabysPoppy]

9. His reply was in the correct forum

n/t needed

[bluesoul]

10. I don't believe you understood

my point. We don't talk about Saudia Arabia here because SA is not about I/P. He was asking why we're not focusing on it. I simply answered. :shrug:

[Muddleoftheroad]

13. Saudi Arabia

Is an Arab nation that both sponsors terror and works against Israel. It is germaine.

[JohnLocke]

11. Thank you.

[Jack Rabbit]

12. Saudi Arabia is a red herring in this discussion, sir

You could safely start a discussion about under-the-table support for al Qaida from Saudis in GD, if you would like. You might even find many on this forum who "bash" Israel allied with you on the matter. But I digress . . . .

Israel may be the only democracy in the Middle East; however, the acts of Israeli leaders with respect to Palestinians living in land occupied by Israel is not above criticism. After all, the ability to criticize the government is part of the democratic process.

In this instance, the government of Israel, by building a security wall beyond the recognized borders of the state, has created a class of people with no political rights. That behavior is about as undemocratic as one can get.

[JohnLocke]

14. No, it is not a red herring

I am simply pointing out the hypocritical stance held by many (but not all) in the "Israel commits horrible human rights abuses!" crowd.

[bemildred]

15. Sir, one is not required in fact to address all the

wrongs in the World at the same time to avoid hypocrisy.
In fact, mentally, it is much easier to deal with one issue
at a time. You will find no one here who advocates in any large
measure for the present Saudi government, but we do occasionally
choose to talk of other things, and that is not in itself
hypocrisy.

[Jack Rabbit]

16. Thank you, sir

No matter how Mr. Locke tries to cut it, the issue of calndestine support of al Qaida from rich Saudis is irrelevant to a discussion of why the security Wall is being built and why it is being built deep inside the Occupied Territories. It is a red herring.

Now, in an attempt to bring the discussion back the matter at hand, let me say that I don't like the idea of a Wall, but that it is a better solution than some others. My objection to the Wall is not that it is being built, but that it is being built in the wrong place. It is being built in a way that Israel is creating a annexation of land to which she is not entitled, dividing farmers from their crops and now, by declaring Palestinians who live between the Green Line and the Wall "permenant residdents" and requiring that they should receive permits to live in their own homes, creating a class of people with no political rights. This is outrageous.

If the Wall were built on the Green Line, which is Israel's recognized border, these problems would not exist.

[rini]

64. I might suggest that if the weasel

had kept his promise to stop and disarm the terrorists, there would be no need of a wall.

[Jack Rabbit]

68. I'm not asking about the need for a wall

I'm asking:

1. Why is it being built deep into the territories rather than on the Green Line?
2. Why did the Israelis cut through existing property lines when building it?
3. Why do Arabs who live between the Green Line and the Wall need permits to live in their homes?

The need for the Wall does not by itself answer any of those questions.

[Jim Sagle]

67. "In fact, mentally, it is much easier to deal with one issue."

And for the last 55 years, that's what much of the world has been doing.

Funny how that works.

[number6]

26. strange logic

"Israel commits horrible human rights abuses!" crowd.

hypocritical stance


Saudi Arabia , seperate issue

Is an Arab nation that both sponsors terror and works against Israel.
true, but thats another issue. doesn' relate to the wall...

[rini]

65. I beg to differ

if the Saudis didn't fund terrorism their despotism would be another subject, their funding makes them fodder for discussion.

[Jack Rabbit]

69. No, ma'am

No one is saying that there is no problem or that the Saudis, at least unofficially, aren't part of it. The pretext of the discussion is already beyond that.

The question is whether the Wall is the best solution to the problem or even a good one and, even if it is, whether building it as it is actually being built is the best way to go about it.

[Violet_Crumble]

46. Oh yes it is...

I don't know why this is so hard for some folk to get a grasp on, but if people were to start posting articles in this forum about the horrible human rights abuses of Saudi Arabia, for example, they'd be moved to FA because this is the I/P forum and not a forum for other issues. Claiming that people are hypocritical because they use this forum for what it's stated purpose is is really slapping those red herrings around. Plus you may have some point if there were posters here who thought that Israel committs human rights violations while Saudi Arabia doesn't, but I'm yet to meet anyone who's claimed anything at all like that...

btw, the reason yr attempts here look even more like a red herring than usual is that you were asked quite a few times in a recent thread a question about the wall and evaded and ignored the question each time it was asked. Is there some reason yr not into question-answering?

Violet...

[number6]

17. not in my opinion

"the only true democracy in the Middle East" ..NOT

[Muddleoftheroad]

19. I suppose you prefer Syria?

Or maybe just the PA, which is a kleptocracy.

[number6]

20. no I don't prefer Syria.

your totally off the wall with that.

[Muddleoftheroad]

50. Not off the wall

You criticized Israeli democracy. I cited a typical Arab nation in response and asked if you prefered that government.

[JohnLocke]

22. Ah, you've read "The Lexus and the Olive Branch?"

[edzontar]

47. Ah yes, that great book by Mr. Tom Friedman...

Arch high priest of the cult of consumer-coporate globalism and incoherent, non-Arabic speaking Middle Easter x-pert and Iraq-war flunky.

He's a really great guy, isn't he?

[JohnLocke]

57. Well, have you read the book?

[edzontar]

58. No, of course not, why would I?

I have heard the man promote the book on CSPAN, CNN. MSRNC, and virtually every other media outlet.....and have also seen him present variations of his mediocre, disproven, obsolete interpretations of the world.

He is omnipresent, and IMHO, to be avoided like the plague....

[Lithos]

59. To jump in

I have read the book. It's an interesting spin on the pluses of global corporatization. However, it is distinctly one sided and omits much of the dangers and failures of corporatization, namely it's tight lock-step with plutocratic facism and resultingly sharp anti-democratic values.

What is good for corporations is almost always counter to the good for the common man.

[edzontar]

61. Mr. Lithos--thanks for reading it FOR me....

I don't like Friedman at all--I find his views simplistic and his prose style disagreeable.

I used to think he might have something to say, but have found his recent work to be so irritating that I have stoped reading or watching him altogether.

Maybe the book isn;t as bad as I suggested--but I found the whole global capitalist-as-inevitable-utopia thesis more than a little wanting back in the 90s, and i feel that recent events have cast this whole mindset into a now-bygone era.

So that is MY take--but I appreciate yours.

[number6]

21. The wall is an abomination

:thumbsdown:

[JohnLocke]

23. How so?

[Jack Rabbit]

24. That depends on to whom you speaking

Different people have different reasons for opposing the wall.

I'll reapeat my point from post 16.

Let me say that I don't like the idea of a Wall, but that it is a better solution than some others. My objection to the Wall is not that it is being built, but that it is being built in the wrong place. It is being built in a way that Israel is creating a annexation of land to which she is not entitled, dividing farmers from their crops and now, by declaring Palestinians who live between the Green Line and the Wall "permenant residdents" and requiring that they should receive permits to live in their own homes, creating a class of people with no political rights. This is outrageous.

If the Wall were built on the Green Line, which is Israel's recognized border, these problems would not exist.

[number6]

25. let me count the ways...

Its UGLY
Its Illegal
It makes life miserable.
Its built on other peoples property.
It detroys the livelyhood of Plestinian farmers.
Its repressive.
Its parinoid.

hey, why not a bubble over the top too....

[drdon326]

27. Noooo

Its Functional
Its necessary
It makes life miserable for murderous palestinian terrorists
Its built on defensive borders
It detroys the livelyhood of Pal. murderous terrorists
Its self-preservation
Its a defensive action.

thanks.... i feel better.

please extend my apologies to the terrorists.

[bluesoul]

28. Only if in your mind

all Palestinians are terrorists. But then nothing would surprise me more coming from you...

[drdon326]

29. Sir...

I think you made a mistake...

i have NEVER said that.

I have said that 75% of the palestinian population
support terrorism.

[bluesoul]

30. They support

resistance. In such desperate conditions many would support jsut about anything to change the situation. And again how much support does Sharon have among the Israelis?

[drdon326]

32. Here's an idea....

apologize for claiming that i said something i have never said.

[bluesoul]

35. I said

ONLY IF in your mind by Palestinian terrorists you mean all Palestinians since you were saying that it affected them, while it actually affects the vasty majority of Palestinians that are cleary NOT terrorists.

[drdon326]

39. I stand corrected...and I apologize

and back to your point...looks like ara-weasel should
have accepted that offer instead of paying terrorists
-- then there wouldnt have been a wall.

now arafat can...whats the word...suck on it.

[number6]

37. you implied it ...

[Jack Rabbit]

31. Responese

EDITED for typing

Its Functional - Granted, it serves a function.

Its necessary - That can be questioned, but in the absence in the foreeable future of a genuine peace agreemnet, I'll go with that.

It makes life miserable for murderous palestinian terrorists - This is where we part ways. It makes life miserable for anybody living between Israel's border and the Wall. Those people are not necessarily terrorists. Indeed, it may be assumed that most of them are not.

Its built on defensive borders - It is not built on any borders at all; it is built well inside the Occupied Territories.

It detroys the livelyhood of Pal. murderous terrorists - Redundant of a previous point.

Its self-preservation - True, but his would also be true of a Wall built on the Green Line.

Its a defensive action - Redundant of the point immediately previous to this one.

[drdon326]

33. At Least ....

we agreed ONE time in a row.

[Jack Rabbit]

34. Are all Palestinian farmers terrorists?

I grant that some very well could be. However, that is no excuse to punish everybody living between Israel's and the Wall.

[drdon326]

40. Of course not.....

unfortunately desperate times call for desperate measures.

[Jack Rabbit]

41. Okay, but

I'm not questioning the Wall per se. I'm only challenging the nessecity of constructing it where it is being contructed. A Wall on the Green Line would not be open to some of the objections being raised, but only ot general objections to building any Wall at all.

Now, can you defend building the Wall inside Palestinian Territories, rather than on the Green Line?

[drdon326]

42. I understand your point completely

i also understand israel feels it needs a buffer of protection
given the seemingly relentless terror attacks.

I've been there and the distance between populated israeli areas
and possible areas of attacks can be transversed by a
good strong elbow.

[Jack Rabbit]

43. And even if that were granted

Is there a reason to build the Wall with no regard for the property of Palestinian farmers living in the area?

Is there a reason to compel Palestinians living in the area between the Green Line and the Wall to get permits to live in their homes?

[drdon326]

44. Good question....

"Is there a reason to compel Palestinians living in the area between the Green Line and the Wall to get permits to live in their homes?"

I dont know for sure this is the case...but assuming you are correct
and i have no reason to doubt it, i suspect , like most things with i/p theres more to it than just face value.

[Jack Rabbit]

45. That's something of which we should both be afraid

That is, that there is something more to this than face value.

I can't say that I am persuaded that the Wall shouldn't have been built on the Green Line. I'm even less persuaded that the hardships the Wall causes the people living in its shadow are necessary.

I'll let it drop at that.

[number6]

36. drdon, are you a comedian ??

Its functional , its Magical and its
lolipops and ice cream ....

[number6]

38. Thanks again Jack Rabbit

:) :thumbsup:

[brainshrub]

49. Destroys livelyhood?

Okay, I don't know how a terrorist makes his livelyhood; but I'm pretty sure the retirement plan sucks.

I would imagine that the average terrorist is an unemployed male. Createing a huge wall sounds like it would create more unemployment...and thus, bigger problems.

[Muddleoftheroad]

51. Unemployment

Many Palestinians used to be employed in Israel. The biggest creator of such terrorists is Mr. Arafat and his multiple Intifadas.

[brainshrub]

52. I think the occupation bears a bit of responcibility to. (nt)

If only they would be willing to lay down and die, then all these problems would go away.

[Muddleoftheroad]

54. Just lay down their arms

Not lay down and die. If they choose peace, they will get a nation. Funny how that works.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Muddleoftheroad]

56. Clearly I think better of them than you do

I don't think they are any sort of "eunuchs."

Nor do I think they are "doomed." Their numbers grow. And, if they so choose, they can have peace and have a nation. Not bad for a doomed people.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[edzontar]

62. There is no reason for them to believe this--at least not

when you put it so simply....

[Muddleoftheroad]

63. Somebody has to believe somebody

Lacking that, it will be a battle for all time.

[rini]

66. If only who would be willing

to lie down and die?