Political learnings for make benefit of understanding glorious nation of Israel

[azurnoir]

full title Strenger than Fiction / Political learnings for make benefit of understanding glorious nation of Israel



Some diplomats and political commentators have expressed confusion about Israel’s policy after Avigdor Lieberman’s speech at the UN. These political commentators suffer from over-conventional thinking and therefore cannot realize that Israel is a very special country. It is the birthplace of the Abrahamic religions, and now it is leading the new revolution in world politics.

It is my great honor to explain it in the tradition of my master teacher, and one of the greatest specialists in explaining the complex dynamics of special countries and revolutionary policies: Borat Sagdiyeff.

Israeli Glorious Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu tells world leaders that a final status agreement with the Palestinians is possible in one year. Unknowledgeable commentators think that this is contradicted, when Glorious Foreign Minister Yvet Lieberman announces at the United Nations there will be no final status agreement in the foreseeable future, and also announces a Glorious New Plan that there will be there will be no more Arabs in Israel, which will become a Jewish ethnocracy.

Commentators do not understand how deep a political revolution Israel is bravely putting into practice. For more than two hundred years the world has lived with a highly unimaginative ideal called democracy. This quaint idea called for one law that to rule all citizens, and allots all citizens equal rights; that there will be a parliament that represents the people and formulates the laws, and then there should be a government that runs the state’s affairs according to one coherent policy.

We declare that in the age of cyberspace, this concept no longer makes any sense. It wasn’t satisfactory to begin with: after all there are always different viewpoints, and the idea that the majority determines what everybody should be doing always leaves everybody unsatisfied. Political and ethical principles like equality before the law often inhibit truly creative policies, and the flexibility that befits the age of cyberspace. Coherence of policy is also a completely outdated notion only held by backward people who believe in the principle of non-contradiction.

http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/strenger-than-fiction/strenger-than-fiction-political-learnings-for-make-benefit-of-understanding-glorious-nation-of-israel-1.316389

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the rest is worth a read as it is sort of funny or would be if........

[bemildred]

1. LOL. nt

[Tripmann]

2. Brilliant! We have an old saying here in Ireland...Many a true word is spoken in jest.

[shira]

3. Too bad Strenger is a bit too Rightwing and Zionist for some...

Instead, try to make Israel humanly intelligible. Point out that most Israelis want the two-state solution, but that the series of events from the second intifada to the shelling of Southern Israel after Israel’s withdrawal from the Gaza Strip has profoundly disillusioned Israelis; that they have quite justified fears that a withdrawal from the West Bank might lead to the shelling of Israel’s central region; and that they are very reluctant to take risks for peace after these traumas.

Talk about Israel’s fears and mistakes; about the paralysis of the political system; about the fact that Israelis have trouble electing a prime minister who doesn’t exude tough machismo, because they are afraid of the many real dangers that surround them. Tell them that Israelis often can no longer keep apart the very real dangers of Hezbollah and Hamas on the one hand, and Fatah and other moderate Arabs on the other hand, because living in Israel can be fairly traumatic.

http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/strenger-than-fiction/strenger-than-fiction-how-not-to-defend-israel-1.315210

That's all just a bunch of Righwing Zionist propaganda intended to excuse the crimes against humanity committed by the far Righwing Supremacist and racist pro-settler, Arab hating government of Israel that intentionally starves, rapes, ethnically cleanses, and murders the natives of the land.

Therefore, Strenger is farther Rightwing than Avidork Lieberman.

:eyes:

[Tripmann]

4. Too bad the irony and contradiction is lost on you. The truth will set your nation free.

[whosinpower]

5. You attempt sarcasm - good for you

It might be prudent to insert (sarcasm) somewhere....otherwise some folks might take you literally....and then take the time to actually read the article which you linked to.....and wonder WTF?!? The eye thing is subtle.....

I can't help but gently remind you that it was you who told me of Amos Oz. I had the pleasure of listening to an interview with him just a few days ago. Ah, well I digress.

A final snip of your linked article -

If you want people to understand Israel, read Amos Oz and David Grossman. They are much better ambassadors for Israel. And finally: if you feel pain about Israel’s mistakes, don’t be afraid to share it. Most of your dialogue partners prefer flawed humanity to pompous self-righteousness.

[shira]

6. Oz and Grossman are great, aren't they? Realize they're not as radical as some here prefer.

And that's a big part of the problem, don't you think?

[shira]

7. Here's a little more Oz, what do you think of this?

“The Israel you see in the media consists 80 per cent of fanatical, medieval, West Bank settlers screaming slogans; 19 per cent ruthless soldiers tormenting Palestinians at roadblocks; and one per cent wonderful intellectuals like myself who criticise the government and struggle for peace. This is, of course, not the real Israel."

http://www.thejc.com/arts/arts-interviews/interview-amos-oz

[whosinpower]

8. I think....

Oz should of been the one delivering a speech to the UN - and not Lieberman!

The statement reminds me that Israel is not monolithic - nor should it be, nor is any other nation on the planet. Israel is pulled/pushed in many directions, from many voices. Some radical, some moderate, some anarchistic.

I will admit that the peace talks and any possible solution would/could fundamentally alter the state of Israel in ways that I have not realized until reading Lieberman's speech. And when I read the writings of Herzl, of his vision, hopes and dreams of what his future state would look and feel like, I can't help but wonder if Lieberman, and his party reject that vision. That Herzl's Israel, fantasy that it was, is not good enough for Lieberman. And he uses the peace talks to facilitate altering the state into something more to his appeal, to the reality that he wants. So it is much more than just making peace with the PA - and this I find unsettling.

But, Oz reminds me that there are alternative opinions within the state.

[shira]

9. The problem is that pro-Palestinian masquerading as caring liberals hate Oz, Grossman, Strenger...

For all their bluster, these sanctimonious imposters regard the vast majority of Israel's Left as the enemy; certainly no better than any Centrist or Rightwing zionists there. They can point their fingers at Netanyahu and Lieberman but Oz, Grossman, and Strenger aren't much better in their opinion. They're all Jewish Zionists who are for colonialism, imperialism, ongoing injustice against Palestinians, etc. For that matter Hamas, the PLO, and other splinter Palestinian factions in that region also don't distinguish between Rightwing or Leftwing Zionist Jewish Israelis either. They're all regarded as the enemy.

Thus, the only good Leftist Israeli Jews are Marxists, Anarchists, and anti-Zionists who live to condemn, defame, and demonize Israel half their lives. These people are the natural allies - or at best useless idiots - of the PLO, Hamas, PFLP, Islamic Jihad, etc.

So it wouldn't matter if Amos Oz spoke instead of Lieberman at the UN. It wouldn't make one bit of difference.

[Tripmann]

10. Can you REALLY not see how 'caring liberals' would empathise with palestinan opression & injustice?

[shira]

14. Those phonies should count Zionist Jews like Oz, Strenger, and Grossman as their...

...natural allies and not marginalize them as though they're no better than Israel's Rightwing settler movement.

Why not trust and embrace Israel's authentic liberals? :shrug:

As to empathizing with Palestinians, why not also empathize with Israeli citizens and especially the vast majority of Israel's liberal left?

[LeftishBrit]

23. Many of us do embrace Israel's liberals!

I certainly do.

I think we should empathize with both Israeli and Palestinian citizens (though not with their bad current governments).

I do think that, while there are certainly people who will treat Israel as a monolithic bogeynation whatever anyone says, some strongly pro-Israel people make the problem worse by being prepared to quote right-wingers as valid sources for the pro-Israel point of view. This just enhances the tendency by some on the left to see all of Israel as just a bunch of right-wingers.

Exactly the same occurs with regard to some strongly pro-Palestinian people, who sometimes quote xenophobic isolationists, other right-wingers, and at the extreme far-RW CT sites in support of their views.

[shira]

27. You certainly do. You, unlike others, are not a poser masquerading as a liberal. n/t

[Tripmann]

28. Would you like to share with us who these 'posers' are shira?

[shira]

29. Sure, anyone who dismisses the views of authentic Israeli liberals like Oz, Grossman, AB Yehoshua...

...and Strenger as illiberal Rightwing propaganda.

Speaking of Strenger...

The self-righteous left's simplistic world
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jul/28/israel-free-speech-middle-east

[Tripmann]

30. So YOU, the person who defends every atrocity of a right wing israeli government,

are commenting on 'poser' liberals?

[shira]

31. Just because I don't defame, demonize, and slander Israel at every opportunity doesn't mean...

...I'm Rightwing and a defender of every atrocity of the right wing government. Neither are Oz, Grossman, AB Yehoshua, and Strenger when they make the same arguments.

Besides, even if Israel's most liberal Meretz party were in control it wouldn't make a bit of difference to you. Being a Jewish Zionist compromises one's liberal values, right?

[Tripmann]

35. Oh,thats right.You only defame dead kids & wheelchair bound holocaust survivors who have a problem

with the actions of the right wing government who you excuse at every opportunity.

[shira]

36. No, you mean that I don't defame, slander, and slime Israel at every opportunity. n/t

[Tripmann]

37. Israels doing just fine at sliming themselves. I'm just commenting on what nobodys left defending ex

[shira]

38. So you think I should join you in your condemnation & trust Turkey and 'witnesses' whose testimony

...has already been proven false? Turkey and the Marmara passengers have lied but you think everyone should believe them.

WHY?

And why aren't you disgusted that Turkey, the UN, and some Marmara passengers have lied? Why do they have to lie? :shrug:

[Tripmann]

39. I think you should stop using DU to excuse violence against kids, american OR palestinian.

[shira]

40. Turkey, the UN, and Marmara activists have been caught in lies.....are you denying this? n/t

[Tripmann]

41. The IDF have needlessly executed kids on a number of occasions. Are you denying this?

[shira]

43. Why can't you answer a simple question? Why do you trust unreliable, dubious sources on this? n/t

[Tripmann]

44. Why do you use DU to excuse the execution of an american child (who you also defamed).Its FILTH

[oberliner]

45. There was no child involved

I am not sure why you feel the need to repeatedly use this term. The situation is tragic enough without attempting to misrepresent the age of the person involved.

[Tripmann]

46. Force of habit. When I hear of a 19 year old dying tragically I do think ''he was only a child'

Although, I suppose he COULD be considered an adult compared to the children the IDF have executed in the past.

[oberliner]

47. Which children have the IDF executed in the past?

I know that there were casualties from the Israeli attack of Gaza who were children but I don't know of any who were found to be executed by the IDF.

[Tripmann]

48. Here ya go. Please feel free to debate whether or not they're children...

Heres the most famous one

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faris_Odeh

14 years old, shot in the neck. Any problems referring to the executed child as a 'child'?

And another

http://www.haaretz.com/news/israeli-troops-shoot-dead-palestinian-boy-in-west-bank-1.266558

16 and 17 year olds.

Please feel free to dig around yourself for more.

[oberliner]

49. Not sure that I would call any of those executions

Though they are extremely tragic.

Each story of Palestinian and Israeli children who have been killed in this conflict over the years is heartbreaking.

[Tripmann]

50. You would call a rock throwing child being shot in the neck by an armoured soldier an execution?

What would you call it?

Self defense?

Pest control?

Culling?

[oberliner]

52. No I wouldn't

Horrible tragic stories though all of them.

I appreciate you sharing.

[LeftishBrit]

33. I don't see many 'posers' posting here.

I see plenty of people who are obviously Just Plain Wrong (i.e. they disagree with me); but I think their beliefs are genuine.

[shira]

34. An example is Strenger's SLES article here...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jul/28/israel-free-speech-middle-east

Ask Israel's harshest critics who live to condemn the country and you'll find Strenger is just excusing Israel's so-called "crimes", covering for the Rightwing government with this piece of propaganda. The Guardian's so-called liberals explicitly said that in the comments section. Note how Strenger cites Bernard Henri-Levy and Alain Finkielkraut at the end of the article? You'll never find Israel's harshest so-called liberal critics ever admitting to the anti-semitic nature of what passes for (irrational) demonization of Israel. In fact, all you hear is how Israel's "Rightwing" defenders label all criticism as antisemitism. These sanctimonious charlatans simply cannot and are unwilling to relate to Israeli liberals.

Another example is Amos Oz's 2009 interview with Johan Hari...

And yet, and yet... it seems that Oz has failed, at last, to hold himself to the high standards he has set. He initially supported Operation Cast Lead - the bombardment of Gaza that killed more than 1,400 people, 40 per cent of whom were children - even though he says he knows, from his own experience, that it will make the children of Gaza dream lunatic dreams of revenge. I ask him why. "Hamas fired some 10,000 rockets on southern Israel, where I live. And I don't think any country in the world would simply turn the other cheek to that. I don't think England would restrain if anybody showered Yorkshire with 10,000 rockets. So, an Israeli response was understandable and acceptable, in my view. The dimensions of the response, the disproportion of the response, is something which I severely criticise."

But use your own test - of seeing the other side; of empathising. Using the same logic, you can ask from the Palestinian perspective - what country could tolerate being violently occupied for 40 years, then having part of its territory blockaded and semi-starved, just to punish it for how it voted in a democratic election?

He uncharacteristically changes the subject, and tries to blame somebody else. "Well, I'll tell you something about this blockade. Gaza borders with Egypt. There was no reason why the Egyptians would not provide Gaza with whatever it needs. And there is very little reason for Israel to provide Gaza with what it needs. After all, Gaza is firing on Israel... If Egypt and the rest of the Arab world wanted to invest in Gaza and to rebuild Gaza and to raise the standard of living in Gaza, they could have done it." Yet Oz knows it is Israel that puts vast pressure on Egypt - especially through the US - not to do that. Israel's own security services said Hamas would extend the ceasefire if Israel agreed to ease the blockade. Wouldn't that have been better? Wouldn't fewer children now be dreaming of shooting rockets at Tel Aviv?

Oz - for the first time in our interview - seems unsure. "I don't know. I think we tried. If we tried hard enough, I don't know. I really don't know." He looks down, then away.

Then he says more confidently: "I think in the last days before the Israeli attack on Gaza, the firing of rockets increased to about 80 rockets a day. And our casualties, and our homes destroyed, and there was the suffering of close to one million Israelis who have to live in underground shelters. No government could tolerate this. No government could simply turn the other cheek."

But the Palestinian side was suffering even more horribly - using your logic, they, too, have a right to fight back and bomb. "I could understand and justify, and justified, a limited, proportionate, measured, cautiously targeted Israeli military response - not a full-scale war. You see... I said many times, and I'll say it again - I'm a peacenik, not a pacifist. Yes, the pacifists believe that the ultimate evil in the world is war. I believe that the ultimate evil is not war but aggression, and aggression sometimes has to be blocked by force. Hence the difference between a peacenik and a pacifist."

It is another wriggle. I'm not advocating pacifism - I'm saying this specific war was a bad idea. As if to soothe me, he says: "I think there should be a thorough judicial interrogation of the occurrences in the Gaza war. The Israeli judiciary is independent and bold and I think there should be a thorough, comprehensive interrogation." He then says that "in principle", Israel should negotiate with Hamas. "If Hamas is ready to talk to Israel, Israel should talk to Hamas right away. Absolutely. Absolutely. Of course, we need to. It's difficult to compromise with Hamas because Hamas maintains that there should be no Israel at all. Not even I can propose as a compromise that Israel exists Mondays, Wednesdays and Thursdays. But the moment Hamas shows the slightest inclination to recognise Israel, I would talk to it - of course I would."

The he surprises me with a bold prediction. I ask: can you imagine Bibi Netanyahu shaking hands with the Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh on the White House lawn, with Obama smiling in-between? He beams. "Absolutely, yes. Absolutely, yes. Absolutely, yes." He adds: "Don't swear an oath about Netanyahu not delivering the two-state solution. So far, we have seen almost every right-wing Prime Minister making surprising concessions for peace. Begin over Sinai and the peace with Egypt; Sharon in evacuating the Gaza strip; Netanyahu himself over the Hebron concessions. So, I don't know. I cannot read his mind; I am sure he does not know yet what he is going to do. But it may well be that reality will be stronger than him, that he will sense the mood of the majority of the Israeli people and surprise us." He has met Netanyahu "a few times", and says: "Deep down below, he strikes me as an opportunist, and that's not necessarily a bad quality under the circumstances."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/johann-hari/israels-voice-of-reason-a_b_176724.html


Same with David Grossman here...

Grossman: All my life I have tried to prevent the use of military power, but I also insist on Israel's right as a sovereign state to defend itself when attacked. It is strange that Israel is the only country that is immediately criticized when it retaliates after years of rocket terror.

SPIEGEL: Perhaps because the scope and strength of this reaction were disproportionate?

Grossman: The world denies our right to retaliate in principle. At the same time, the government in Jerusalem conducts a war which leads to many civilian victims. It is a tragedy that we believe we have to constantly decide between total pacifism and monstrous violence. My hope is that we shall find an adequate language for the complex situation between us and the Palestinians.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,641437-2,00.html

Israel's harshest critics who say they represent the Left reject Strenger, Levy, Finkielkraut, and Oz by misrepresenting their opinions as Rightwing. They use Oz, Grossman, Strenger, etc... to hammer away at Israel. Never to empathize with liberal Israelis.

[whosinpower]

11. I will say it again - Israel is not monolithic

And your black and white assessment is not helpful, except to entrench Israel into an ever falling trap of right wing radicalism, seperation and alienation. And it is sad really, that you use the narrative of Israel's detractors, and sometimes enemies to pigeonhole Israel, instead of acknowledging the voices of Oz, Grossman and Strenger. Why you give the enemies of Israel that authority and power is mind boggling.

I will explain - that Hamas hates Israel and seeks its destruction means that it does not matter if Lieberman speaks, or Oz speaks.....it does not matter to Hamas - that is surely true. But I would not be so lazy to disregard what Oz says just because Hamas does not make that distinction.

Because - if it makes no difference to Israel's enemies, then it is left to Israel's leadership, and its people to plot the course of its future. Lieberman and Oz have very different philosophies. Apparently you feel it does not matter. I disagree. For Hamas it does not matter - but why should I give them that authority who I should or want to listen to?

Actually - upon thinking about Lieberman's speech - I think Lieberman gave Hamas a big present - so it did matter. That he consciously and deliberately undermined the peace talks did matter. That he undermined Netanyahu did matter. There is an opportunity here to marginalize Hamas, and Lieberman will not take it because it is more important to him to seperate Arabs from jews. Lieberman should of been fired for this. He hasn't been because Netanyahu needs him and his votes.

[shira]

13. You're not understanding me correctly...

To Israel's sanctimonious phony "liberal" critics, the voices of Zionist Jews like Oz, Strenger, and Grossman do not matter. These authentic liberal Israeli voices for peace should be the natural allies of Israel's harshest "liberal" critics, but they're not. They're only useful as long as their voices can be used to defame and demonize Israel.

It's not that I don't personally acknowledge and embrace Oz, Grossman, and Strenger. It's that the sanctimonious phony "humanitarian" Left does not when they absolutely should.

While I agree Lieberman should be fired, you should at least acknowledge this wouldn't make a bit of difference to phony liberals, even if he and Netanyahu were replaced immediately with Oz and the entire Peace Now camp. Once you acknowledge this, you'll realize what a difficult and impossible predicament Israel is in. Let's be clear. Even if Israel were to offer Palestinians a better deal than Olmert's 2008 offer and Abbas accepts, that's far from the end for Israel's phony liberal critics. The BDS movement will continue, as will a push for Israel within the green line to become a binational state that accepts all Palestinian refugees.

This is the sad reality. That's not to say Israel should do nothing, keep electing Rightwing politicians, do more of the same, etc... but let's face facts, okay?

[LeftishBrit]

21. Yes, the state is full of alternative visions.

'I can't help wonder if Lieberman and his party would reject (Herzl's) vision'

I don't wonder, I'm sure he would! Herzl would turn in his grave if he knew that this nutcase was Israel's Foreign Secretary.

[oberliner]

12. Is this meant to be a parody of something?

Can you clarify?

[Violet_Crumble]

15. Of course he's taking the piss....

Glad I read it. It was funny!

[oberliner]

16. I think I missed the joke

Is it a parody of the Russian influence in modern Israeli politics?

[Violet_Crumble]

17. I'm not sure why. He was clearly being sarcastic..

Haven't you read anything by him before?

[oberliner]

18. I've never known him to use this writing style - or this fictious Russian (?) character

I figure he is using sarcasm, I just wonder if there is some component of the joke that I am not grasping.

[azurnoir]

20. Yvet is Avigdor Lieberman's Russian birth name

http://blogs.forward.com/jj-goldberg/tags/avigdor-yvet-lieberman/

[azurnoir]

22. It was a parody of a Russians influence in Israeli politics n/t

[oberliner]

26. Seems to be quite a tension in Israel these days

Quite a bit of good-natured(?) ribbing of the Russian-born Israelis from the non-Russians.

[azurnoir]

32. I was thinking it was more a parody of the influence of a single Russian

born Israeli who was called Yvet in Russia

[bemildred]

19. It is a parody:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borat:_Cultural_Learnings_of_America_for_Make_Benefit_Glorious_Nation_of_Kazakhstan

[oberliner]

24. Thanks - I never did see that movie

Didn't realize that was the full title.

[bemildred]

25. Nor did I.

It's obviously not a serious piece, one only needs to figure out what is being ridiculed.

[azurnoir]

42. the adl also had somethings to say about the movie

as the character of Borat is raving caricature antisemite

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borat:_Cultural_Learnings_of_America_for_Make_Benefit_Glorious_Nation_of_Kazakhstan

[bemildred]

51. Yep, as you said elsewhere, it makes an interesting picture. nt