Fini: EU knew for years that Hamas was terror group

[Gimel]

Italian Deputy Prime Minister Gianfranco Fini told
Finance Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in a meeting
Tuesday that Muslim Italian citizens were
responsible for a terror attack in Nassiriyah,
Iraq in which 19 Italian policeman were killed
earlier this month, Israel Radio reported.

Fini said that the terrorists arrived at Iraq from
Italy, but did not reveal the source
for this information, the radio said.

Fini also told lawmakers Tuesday that Europe could be
"more balanced" in its approach to the Middle East,
and rebuked European Union member states for not
outlawing the Palestinian militant group Hamas sooner.

Speaking to the members of the Knesset Foreign
Affairs and Defense Committee on Tuesday, Fini
said that the EU had known for many years that
Hamas was a terrorist organization, but had
lacked the integrity to act upon that knowledge
until Italy took over as EU president.

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/364964.html

[La_Serpiente]

1. I wouldn't trust information coming from him

He is known in Europe as being one of the biggest facist. He says he is not, but I couldn't trust someone like that. For a majority of his life, he was a facist.

[Gimel]

2. Don't trust a turncoat

is that what you're saying?

Are you denying that Hamas is a terrorist group, or do you think that because Fini was the one to press for a change with regards to the recognition of Hamas as a terror group that it is unaccabtable? Sheese. What a mentality.

[bluesoul]

4. He's not a turncoat

He's still greeted by people - his supporters with their hands up (heil Mussolini style). But if you welcome such people....

Some trivia from our "turncoat" mr Fini:

ALLIENZA NAZIONALE
A right-wing Italian party formed from most of the former Italian Social Movement (Movimento Sociale Italiano, MSI) and conservative elements of the former Christian Democrats, the National Alliance (Alleanza Nazionale, AN) was created in 1994.

The party is led by Gianfranco Fini, formerly Youth Front leader of the MSI (widely dubbed Italy's neo-fascist party) and successor as MSI leader to Giorgio Almirante. It has taken part in the first two coalition governments (1994 and 2001-) of prime minister Silvio Berlusconi, in the second of which Fini was vice-premier.

Other well-known party members include Alessandra Mussolini, granddaughter of the former Fascist dictator Benito Mussolini whose sympathisers formed the MSI following Fascism's defeat in World War II. Distinguishing itself from the MSI, the AN characterises itself as "post-Fascist" and proclaims its commitment to constitutionalism, democracy and political pluralism.

[La_Serpiente]

5. Would you trust a facist?

Because I sure the hell wouldn't. Someone who believes in the legacy that Hitler left is no human in my book. Jews should be outraged that he is even going to their country.

[Gimel]

6. He laid a wreath at Yad Vashem

He has been here already. People here say that he seemed sincere. Yet, they were disappointed that he didn't appologize for his own fascist past.

I haven't met the man, nor do I know much about him. It is possible to have a sincere change of direction. If you can't accept that, the world is doomed.

[bluesoul]

7. As long as he's a rabid

anti-Muslim he's ok, right Gimel? Oh my..this man is so obviously fascist that he's not even welcomed in any serious European country. We know his past and present. I have plenty of Italian tv to watch and I know his views and his speeches before mostly neonazi neofascist audiences. Gimel you'r falling for a trap...

[tinnypriv]

8. Eichmann was an honoured guest pre-state

He was a fascist, and this guy is a fascist.

I'm astounded that you're prepared to give this jerk a free pass because he meets your definition of "pro-Israel".

What is that definition BTW? Hating Jews but supporting military expansionist policies of Sharon? :eyes:

That is exactly what Fini represents. I'm just wondering why you don't seem to care less.

Oh wait, he's changed....

[Gimel]

36. Honored guest

Honored guest. Yes. I recall. He had a special glass cage all for himself.

[edzontar]

9. Fini is a Fascist, with a capital F...heir to Mussolini

He is the head of Allianza Nazionale--a party which is the direct heir to Mussolini's old Fascisti.

He is also an anti-Muslim and anti-African bigot of the first order.

Your choice of friends in this case is most unfortumate, and perhaps revealing.

[Paschall]

10. "sincere change of direction"

It's nice to know you're so forgiving, Gimel.

I'll keep that in mind the next time Europeans are being bashed by Sharon--and even a few members here--for their "inherent" anti-Semitism. (Not quite sure how Fini got over the "inherent" part, but I guess forgiveness is a good thing.)

I'll also remember that the next time the traitorous Vichy government is hauled out as proof of France's anti-Semitism, since Vichy has been officially repudiated and its worst perpetrators were tried, imprisoned, and in some cases executed by the courts of the restored French Republic after the war.

Never forget. Never again.

[bluesoul]

11. This is like

supporting someone that welcomes me, but just hates my family, friends and wished they would be deported somewhere where he would not see them. I would never want ANYTHING from such a man, and I certainly wouldn't want his support.

If only some saw the whole picture...

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rini]

13. You go Girl!!

[bluesoul]

14. We hate Israel?!?

Really? Not supporting Sharon is hating Israel? Gee then I guess Uri Avnery, Gush Shalom, Haaretz and all those on the left are not Israelis? Oh my...

[Paschall]

15. Accept my judgement?

What judgement? I made a series of remarks.

I do note that you seem ready to accept Fini at his word. And even offered him the excuse of having laid a wreath at Yad Vashem and possibly "sincerely changed direction."

Why would accepting my judgement--if I'd offered one--be any harder? I'm a lifelong Democrat. Fini's an avowed neo-fascist.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Paschall]

23. When did I make up things?

You say I'm doing it "again?"

Got a list? And by the way are you calling me a liar?

[Gimel]

34. By the way

I didn't call you a liar. If you infered as much, I apologize.

[Paschall]

38. Apology accepted...

...by the way.

[Gimel]

26. Still have not made up my mind

about Fini or about the person posting. No need to be rude. Just standing on my rights.

If Fini was a neo-fascist, he wouldn't be allowed in Israel. There are people more knowledgable about him than anyone here who made that decision.

[Paschall]

29. "If Fini was a neo-fascist, he wouldn't be allowed in Israel."

Are you sure?

<snip> Following hostile reaction to comments he made in the early '90s—such as “Mussolini was the greatest statesman of the twentieth century”, and “Fascism has a tradition of honesty, correctness and good government”—Fini learnt to curb his tongue and declared himself a “post-fascist” and democrat.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/may2001/ital-m19.shtml

<snip> The economic circumstances and the social context of fear and disarray they have engendered have encouraged the growth of political parties with openly fascist roots. In Austria, the Liberal Party ...; in Italy, Gianfranco Fini’s National Alliance (AN) has 15.7% of the vote and 53 members of parliament... </snip>

http://mondediplo.com/1998/04/01leader%20

Or simply Google "Fini neo-fascist" you'll find dozens of pages from reputable news and editorial sources that refer to him as such. But, of course, you can continue to keep your head buried in the sand.

[edzontar]

39. I am sorry to have to tell you this....

But he IS a Neo-Fascist, and well known as such.

And he HAS been invited to Israel.

I think this speaks more to the character of the present administration in Israel than it does to Fini, who is a known fascist.

I would suggest that your rather stubborn idealism re-Sharon and his gang might merit some re-thinking.

I personally find the whole affair to be most distasteful.

[Gimel]

41. I am sorrier for you

who have to live under these neo-fascists. I live in Israel. True, some from Europe who want to clean up their association with the European past come to Israel to lay a wreath. But then they return to their home countries.

[edzontar]

44. I don't live in Italy--I live in the USA...

Where we have our own would-be fascists, just as you in Israel have yours.

But I HAVE lived in Italy and Fini is a real piece of work, I can tell you that.

Brilliant in his way.

Also completely unscrupulous and committed to the "old ways""--racism, nationalism, and fascism.

[Gimel]

48. All the EU members

bear responsibility for the funding of Hamas. Since the June 6 summit until the September conference and the final Oct action to cut off funds on Sept 11, 59 Israelis were murdered in Hamas attacks. That is leaving out the murders by other Palestinian terrorist groups.

While Britain and Germany were in favor of cutting Hamas funding, it was not until Italy took the initiative and pressed the others EU members, that a vote in favor of cutting off all funding to Hamas was achieved.

I congratulate Italy for taking this initiative. Fini may not have acted alone, but as a representative of the Italian government, he has shown himself to be more aware and concerned for the complete disruption of the terrorist activity than any other EU country. That's why he was honored in Israel.

[Paschall]

55. When did the Israeli government say this?

"Fini may not have acted alone, but as a representative of the Italian government, he has shown himself to be more aware and concerned for the complete disruption of the terrorist activity than any other EU country. That's why he was honored in Israel."

[Paschall]

82. Sorry to come back to this...

...but you introduce so many factual errors in your posts it's extremely hard to keep track of them all.

You clearly imply that the European Union was "funding" Hamas. That is totally inaccurate. The EU has never funded Hamas.

The EU in fact called for the "dismantling of the terrorist networks of Hamas" at least as early as 2001.

http://www.europaworld.org/issue62/pattendefends211201.htm

[Jack Rabbit]

67. Fini and fascism

Gianfranco Fini is the head of the National Alliance, an Ialian political party that is part of Prime Minister Berlusconi's governing coalition.

The National Alliance is a made over version of an ealier political party, the Italian Socialist Movement (MSI). The MSI was formed after World War II from the remnants of Mussolini's Fascisti. The National Alliance is therefrore the direct descendant of Mussolini's Fascisti; on the basis of that, it is jusitiable to refer to Fini as a fascist.

Fini himself would prefer the term post-fascist. He coined the term in his attempt to define Mussolini's ideology in terms of the political, economic and social realities of our time. Some time later, a Eurpopean journalist coined the epitath yuppie fascist in reference to another political leader with ideas similar to Fini's.

Key elements of yuppie fascism are hostility to immigrants, homosexuals, AIDS patients and minority groups, including Jews. In this respect, Fini resembles other European politicians such as Joerg Haider in Austria and Jean-Marie LePen in France.

For further reference, I offer my own study on the subject, The Rise of Yuppie Fascism, which was published on DU in February 2002. I particularly recommend also the article On Post-Fascism by G. M. Tamas, for which a link may be found on the first part of my work.

Part One, February 5, 2002
Part Two, February 12, 2002

[Paschall]

79. Thanks for the links--and your work--, Jack Rabbit

Very nice and very thought provoking.

I might have some comments on the particularities of LePen's National Front, but I'll save those for another thread. Jean-Marie will soon be campaigning again in France and I'm sure we'll have ample time then to discuss this neo-Poujadist.

[Gimel]

27. the more interesting read

I posted the article for the second half which notes:

Cohn-Bendit, a leader of the French student left
in the late 1960s, is currently on a visit to
Israel. He said the decision to shelve the
study was a "big, big, error" and that his
party would question the move in the European
Parliament at the first opportunity.

"There is a danger of anti-Semitism in Europe,
there is a danger of racism in Europe - both -
and we must confront this reality, and we can't
now postpone the debate on this," Cohn-Bendit
said.

An extract from the report obtained by the
Financial Times stated: "...it can be concluded
that the anti-Semitic incidents in the
monitoring period were committed above all by
rightwing extremists and radical Islamists or
young Muslims."

"The decision not to publish was a political
decision," a source familiar with the report
told the Financial Times. He said the report
had uncovered a "trend towards Muslim
anti-Semitism, while on the left there is also
mobilization against Israel that is not always
free of prejudice."
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/364930.html

Do you also disagree with the leftest leader Cohn-Bendit?

I don't give a fig about Fini. He's not my concern.

[Paschall]

32. Cohn-Bendit is actually a very admirable man

He's a leader of the Green party and a member of the European Parliament, so I suspect he knows a little more about this report than we do, particularly since it was prepared by a German institute. So if he says shelving the report was an error, I would tend to believe him.

(Instinctively, I tend to think shelving the report was an error, by the way, but since I know nothing about its contents or the group which prepared it, it's hard to judge.)

Cohn-Bendit's other remark--"There is a danger of anti-Semitism in Europe, there is a danger of racism in Europe - both - and we must confront this reality, and we can't now postpone the debate on this"--is rather polemical. The debate in Europe has not been postponed. It's been going on for several generations. I'm interested to know what Cohn-Bendit is proposing. (And I'm sure we'll be hearing, because European legislative elections are coming up in 2004. As you might have sensed Cohn-Bendit's already campaigning.) He's extremely innovative. As former associate mayor of Frankfort, he helped push through legislation that allowed immigrants to vote in local elections and run for seats on local city council bodies. There is a large Turkish minority in his circumscription.

[Jack Rabbit]

69. Cohn-Bendit is absolutely right about this

The report is at least supposed to be a scientific study of the phenomenon of anti-Semitism in Europe today. The report should be published and the chips should fall where they may.

Perhaps there are some responsible for the report who have reservations about its conclusions or the methods employed to reach those conclusions. If so, they should be able to append a minority report.

Otherwise, let's trust the people to discuss the report's findings and determine for themselves whether the report has any validity or not.

[Classical_Liberal]

16. I don't hate Israel. I hate its right wing government

that supports fascists so long as they hate everyone but Israelis.

[Gimel]

35. Let me rephrase

I am a forgiving person personally. But you won't have the occasion, I'm sure to take advantage of that.

It is not my place to forgive Fini, as I really am not acquainted with him or his deeds. It is not my place to forgive him for any fascist political expressions for Israel or the Jewish people as a whole.

These assumptions are rather generous on your part.

[Paschall]

37. I hope I won't have the occasion to take advantage of your forgiveness

Because I hope there will never be any need for you to extend it to me.

You did, however, --and apparently without understanding anything about Fini, either the man or his political past--, accept as truth his claim about the EU and Hamas. You further sought to rationalize his actions and visit in Israel by suggesting he might have "changed."

As a European I am shamed and horrified by Fini's behavior and the behavior of his prime minister Berlusconi, particularly now when Italy is temporary president of the EU. I don't want anything about these evil characters hidden, rationalized, or papered over.

I am equally shocked that you would not share those feelings on seeing this horrible man greeted with such warmth by the government of Israel.

Bottom line regarding the article that started this thread: DON'T believe everything a "reformed" fascist--or your government (GOI)--tells you.

[Classical_Liberal]

17. I think Fini is misportraying the EU position

.

[Paschall]

18. Fini doesn't seem to know what Fini's position is

<snip> A spokesman for Fini clarified on Tuesday evening that Fini did not say Italians were responsible for the attack in Nassiriyah, Iraq, in which 19 Italian policeman were killed earlier this month.

Earlier Tuesday Israel Radio reported that Fini told Finance Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in a meeting that Muslim Italian citizens were responsible for the terror attack.

The spokesman said that Fini was misunderstood and that he talked about European Muslims arriving in Iraq, possiblity from Italy, but didn't say that they had any connection to the Nassiriyah attack. </snip>

I can't help thinking what Fini really meant was: Muslim Italian citizens are not Italians. It would be in character.

[bemildred]

19. Fini's position is that he wants all the attention he can get.

[Paschall]

22. Attention and a thick coat of whitewash

[edzontar]

45. That's it! Fini is only interested in Fini

And his own ambition--which is to restore Mussolini's legacy and install himself as the new Duce.

The GOI should be ashamed to have anything to do with this man.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Paschall]

60. Acknowledgement of European anti-Semitism

See my Post 32.

[edzontar]

73. I care--and you should too....

Israel gains nothing by embracing Fini.

[Lithos]

75. Rini

Please see your inbox.

[Paschall]

24. Can I have a link on this please, Gimel

You say: "Fini was the one to press for a change with regards to the recognition of Hamas as a terror group."

I've never heard that before and I would bet good money Fini is NOT "the one" to have pressed for this change in EU policy regarding Hamas.

Of course I'm always willing to learn. Got a link?

[Gimel]

28. It's in the article

Fini said that the EU had known for many years that
Hamas was a terrorist organization, but had
lacked the integrity to act upon that knowledge
until Italy took over as EU president.

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/364964.html

As Deputy Prime Minister he had a voice in this, no doubt. Else why is he the one to visit Israel?

[Paschall]

30. Surprise: The deputy prime minister of Italy has relatively little say...

...in European Union policy.

I read the article.

But you say: "Fini was the one to press for a change with regards to the recognition of Hamas as a terror group" implying he was single-handedly responsible for this EU policy change.

Do you have any documentation to support that claim?

[Gimel]

31. As EU President

Italy pressed for changes. I wouldn't be surprised if it was Fini or his wife, for that matter, if he has one. Apparently other European nations were content to let Hamas collect millions of dollars in donations from Europe as a "charity". Just a little wrist slapping was enough for them.

[Paschall]

33. Gimel, can we stay focused on my specific question, please?

I'd like documentation for your first claim that Fini was "the one" who "pressed for changes."

But in regard to the EU presidency: As it happens, Gimel, Silvio Berlusconi is head of Italian government and thus temporary "chief of state" of the EU during Italy's 6-month presidency.

That's the same Berlusconi who said, "Mussolini never killed anyone. Mussolini used to send people on vacation in internal exile." -- Berlusconi’s Mussolini remark upsets Jews

Berlusconi's first days as EU president were not very propitious...

<snip> He {Fini} said the prime minister {Berlusconi} should have apologised {for comparing a German Member of the European Parliament to a Nazi camp commandant}, as demanded by the Germans and MEPs, but Mr Berlusconi could not bring himself to do so. It was just a joke, he said, claiming that Italians were always making jokes about the Holocaust because they knew how to laugh at a tragedy like that. </snip> -- Berlusconi makes Mussolini’s heir seem less of a fascist

[Gimel]

40. Changes in EU position on Hamas

It seems that GWBush asked for the EU to outlaw Hamas in June of 2003:

...President Bush strongly urged the Europeans to stamp out all fund-raising for Hamas and seize its assets, saying the group was an obstacle to peace in the Middle East.

<snip>
Correspondents say that the strongest opposition to a complete ban on Hamas has come from France, which believes the political wing has a role in the Middle East peace process.

Some other EU members, led by the United Kingdom, have been urging the union to follow the US position.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3026992.stm

A confrence was organized by the Italian delegation to discuss the matter:

The current Italian EU presidency "indicated that it plans to organize a discussion on this subject" at an informal meeting of EU foreign ministers due in the lake resort of Riva del Garda on September 5-6, said the diplomat.
http://quickstart.clari.net/qs_se/webnews/wed/cp/Qmideast-hamas-eu.RTD9_DaP.html

The EU Foreign Ministers were persuaded at the Italian resort

The European Union’s council of ambassadors met in Brussels on Sept. 11 and agreed on a foreign policy decision of supposedly significant consequence for peace in the Middle East. The EU decided to place the Palestinian resistance group Hamas on its blacklist of "terrorist" organizations. Last year the EU outlawed the Ezzeddine al-Qassam brigades, the military wing of Hamas, but held back from condemning the political wing in the hope it could play a positive role in peace efforts.

This time it was Italy, using its position as current president of the EU, which pushed the EU nations to fall in line with the United States.
http://www.aljazeerah.info/Opinion%20editorials/2003%20Opinion%20Editorials/September/30%20o/By%20outlawing%20Hamas,%20the%20EU%20sidelines%20Europe%20Khatoun%20Haidar.htm


RIVA DEL GARDA, Italy – European foreign ministers on Friday signaled a new willingness to talk about adding the political arm of the Palestinian group Hamas to the European Union's terrorist list ahead of a discussion of the subject on Saturday.
http://www.ocnus.net/cgi-bin/exec/view.cgi?archive=30&num=7031


The inner workings of this meeting is not available for the outside viewer, it would seem. Italy organized the event, so one can only assume that it's top ministers favored the ban.

[Paschall]

42. So the neo-fascist Fini...

...wasn't responsible for the change in EU policy. That's what I thought. Thanks for the links.

[Gimel]

46. Pressed for change

Was the word I used, not responsibility. He was part of the team credited with implementing the policy change. I have proved that, and you have not given any proof to the contrary.

[Paschall]

47. Give it a rest, Gimel

See Post #30. You attributed the responsibility to Fini; you said he was "the one."

At this point you might want to ask yourself why Fini would be slamming the EU the way he did in the article quoted. Serving US interests by sowing discord within the EU? Serving Berlusconi by impunging the EU, just at a moment when Berlusconi is being investigated by the Union's magistrates for massive fraud and corruption? Whitewashing his own political affiliations and past? I see lots of potential motivations there, and given he is such a sleaze ball I see no reason to assume his motives were altruistic. On the contrary. Not to mention that you might also be asking yourself why Fini didn't start to "reform" until 2002--over a half century after the Holocaust.

You on the other hand have attempted to overlook the man's neo-fascism. You even said you "don't give a fig about Fini" and he was "not your concern." A stunning remark. It's "not your concern" when your government embraces a neo-fascist?

And I must say I am also stunned that you have not made any comment whatsoever on the pro-Mussolini and pro-Fascism remarks attributed to Fini in numerous sources throughout the global press. You have brushed them aside as if they were inconsequential.

Since you asked me if I agreed with Cohn-Bendit's remarks, I think it's only fair if I ask you: Do you agree with Fini's position on Mussolini and Fascism? With Berlusconi's on Mussolini and Holocaust "jokes"?

[Gimel]

49. The "one"

Post #30 is your post. My post 2 recognizes Fini as a representative of his government. That is why I said "the one".

This time it was Italy, using its position as current president of the EU, which pushed the EU nations to fall in line with the United States.
http://www.aljazeerah.info/Opinion%20editorials/2003%20Opinion%20Editorials/September/30%20o/By%20outlawing%20Hamas,%20the%20EU%20sidelines%20Europe%20Khatoun%20Haidar.htm

Even al Jazeerah recognizes this. Of course, they think it was the wrong move. It does put the EU in a more neutral footing as far as the I/P conflict is concerned.

It was not Britain or Germany or France, certainly that deserves the credit for pushing through the change. Italy has shown itself to be more sympathetic to Israel. While the comments made by Berlusconi were uncomfotable for others in the EU, that is their infight. Rash statements are one thing, support for terrorism is a black mark.

More comments todya on Fini will show you tht Israelis are not as open-armed in their support of him, nor are the members of the GOI, as you have assumed.

Fini also clarified that he renounced the puppet
government of Benito Mussolini, who sent 2,000
of Italy's Jews to extermination camps, as well
as statements he made a number of years ago in
praise of Mussolini.

After the meeting at the Knesset, Rivlin said
his guest had renounced the past, but did so
"diplomatically, in a way that could be
understood as not taking responsibility for
very specific groups in Italian society."

Fini was also the guest of the Knesset Foreign
Affairs and Defense Committee. Yuval Steinitz
(Likud), the committee chair, told Fini that
the committee was not looking into his heart,
but was very impressed with his deeds, that he
had not only apologized and expressed remorse,
but had become "a friend of Israel and the
Jewish people."

However, MK Eti Livni (Shinui) remarked that
during his visit to Yad Vashem, Fini had not
outrightly apologized for the crimes of the
fascists in Italy. MK Yossi Sarid (Meretz), who
boycotted the meeting, said: "This is a sad and
shameful day for the Knesset, which lays a red
carpet at the feet of a neo-fascist who is
still far from `repentence.'"
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/365053.html
(scroll down for this paragraphs 7-10)

I'll give it a rest when you concede that you are unreasonable and not looking at the facts. Instead you claim victory over a very minor difference of opinion. Italy pressed for the change. Fini represented Italy, thereore my statement is correct in it's implication, if not grammatically correct in choice of pronoun.

[Paschall]

52. I responded to your request...

...for my reaction to Cohn-Bendit's remarks. Why don't you respond to mine regarding Fini's and Berlusconi's?

Or is this your response: "While the comments made by Berlusconi were uncomfotable for others in the EU, that is their infight."

So you're telling me European neo-fascist Holocaust deniers and Holocaust revisionists are no concern to you and you have no reaction to them?

And you say you're a Jew and an Israeli? :wow:

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Paschall]

78. Did you read the article at that link?

You say: "Berlusconi and his comments were balanced by his later words and actions. See for example the JDL's {sic} reflection of a 'Flawed Friend of Zionism'."

I don't see ANY attenuating circumstances given by the ADL for Berlusconi's words or behavior (and certainly the article contains nothing regarding his "later words and actions") except one:

<snip> In the face of Berlusconi’s long political record, however, as well as the request from a number of Jewish groups that the ADL rescind its award, ADL director Abraham Foxman dismissed the criticism as “politically laced” and said the organization would proceed with its Plaza Hotel gala as planned. Foxman, who is quoted in the media on an almost daily basis as a major spokesman for American Zionism, said of Berlusconi, “He’s a solid friend, but he’s a flawed friend.” According to Foxman, Berlusconi’s latest comments were “inappropriate” and “uninformed,” but “that’s not enough for me to say he’s no longer a friend.” ...

Berlusconi’s nostalgia for fascism is not a secret. The ADL’s embrace of this man, however, may surprise some who have heard Foxman’s pronouncements as a self-proclaimed opponent of white supremacists and racists of all varieties. The reason the ADL stood fast against denunciations of the award was made clear by Foxman himself. “He has spoken out that anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism,” he told The Jewish Week, describing the Italian rightist as a “good friend of Israel.”

The logic of the ADL is clear. Just as “anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism,” so support for Israel erases any taint of ant-Semitism, even for self-proclaimed sympathizers of fascist dictatorships that were bent upon the extermination of the Jews.

The Times reported, “Other Jewish leaders suggested that a deep sense of worry about Israel, during a time of increased violence there, makes it easier to overlook flaws in the search for friends.” Jason Isaacson of the American Jewish Committee, another “mainstream” Zionist organization, declared that “World leaders who are seen as sympathetic to Israel are much prized. That solidarity earns rewards from the Jewish community.” According to this twisted logic, the governments of France and Germany, because they have criticized the attack on Iraq, are guilty of harboring or encouraging anti-Semitism. Berlusconi, however, because he embraces Israel, is a friend of the Jewish people despite his fondness for Mussolini. </snip>

And for THAT Berlusconi received the ADL's Distinguished Statesman Award! :wow:

[Paschall]

80. Since you've picked up rini's refrain

I'll redirect my question to you.

You say: "It is more important to me that Europe stop supporting terror..."

Can I please have documentation supporting your claim that Europe supports terror?

And I'd also like to ask, are you now claiming Fini is a "former" fascist? As I indicated a simple internet search will confirm that he is widely called a "neo-fascist." What evidence do you have to support this "former" fascist appellation?

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Paschall]

53. Link please

Supporting this claim: "Europe has been funding terrorism for years"

[bluesoul]

54. By Rini's logic

the USA has been funding and sponsoring state terrorism for years...

[drdon326]

56. Foundation cuts aid to Palestinian group

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/nation/7323030.htm

The Ford Foundation announced this week that it would cut off grant money to a controversial Palestinian organization and monitor other funded groups for anti-Israel activities.

Ford also will make groups sign a pledge "against all forms of bigotry and against calls for the destruction of any state."

The proviso is the first of its kind by a foundation, several philanthropy experts said in interviews.

Ford's actions are a victory for Jewish groups, which had complained that some Ford-funded organizations had incited anti-Israel hatred. The complaints focused on the 2001 U.N. conference on racism in Durban, South Africa, where some groups sought condemnations of Israel for "genocide and ethnic cleansing."

.....................................................................

:shrug:???????

[Paschall]

59. Irrelevant to this discussion

The Ford Foundation is an American foundation.

This is the subject of another thread and irrelevant here in this discussion of the EU.

[rini]

61. Puleese!

Once again the subject is being hijacked! There is not enough room to list all the sources of European anti-semitism. I have great faith in your ability to look up sources for yourself.

[Paschall]

62. Who's talking about European anti-Semitism?

This sub-thread starts with your post 51 in which you claim "Europe has been funding terrorism for years."

I'm still waiting for you to document that.

[bluesoul]

63. As though

there ain't enough of anti-Muslim sentiments all across the world...

[Violet_Crumble]

64. Let me help you out here...

Uh, the subject of the thread is Fini and what he's said and then claims he never said, and on and on and on. I would imagine in any thread about Sharon, the discussion would centre around Sharon, so it's hard to see this particular subject as being hijacked. And I would imagine that anyone who objects to the politician in the article being discussed is someone who is uncomfortable with their words and political leanings being examined. After reading through this thread, I almost feel like starting up a betting pool to pick the poster and post number where someone will try to tout Fini as a progressive ;)

Yr claim was that the EU has funded terrorist groups for years. Yet when asked for proof of that you've changed yr tune and talk about European anti-semitism. I'd hazard a guess that anti-semitism and funding of terrorist groups aren't the same thing, as anti-semites exist who don't fund terrorist groups. I get the feeling that yet again yr broadly stereotyping all of Europe as being anti-semitic, which is clearly untrue, and just as bad as someone stereotyping all Israelis as anti-Arab/Muslim...

Just speaking generally into the air here, but I find it disturbing that some people see fit to praise anyone who they see as being a 'friend of Israel' while showing an ignorance of a not too distant fascist past that has only been distanced because of political expediency and a cynical attempt to make this politician more palatable to a larger section of voters. For anyone to think someone like this Fini Fascist is a friend is as dangerous and stupid as those on the Iranian left thinking that religious fundamentalists were their friends in the struggle they shared against the Shah. They weren't, and left-wing activists found out the hard way after the Revolution. Fascism, in all it's manifestations of neo or post-fascism, is not just a danger to Israel, but an insult as well....

Violet...

[bluesoul]

65. Violet, post of the day here!

Couldn't have said it any better! :toast:

[edzontar]

74. Here! Here!

Eloquently and, in my opinion, definitively stated.

Strange bedfellows, indeed.

[Paschall]

70. I might also respond

I find it hard to understand why the Israel die-hards here find it so hard to condemn Fini and Berlusconi.

[Jack Rabbit]

72. Actually, Fini is exaggerating Italy's role in the matter

As a moral case, Ms. Gimel is correct in stating that EU members bear a collective responsibility for Hamas' war crimes. It really shouldn't be any more difficult to call Hamas a terrorist organiztion than it is to call Sophia Loren an Italian.

Although the EU has been slow in sanctioning Hamas, they have been doing so. This sanctioning, for better or worse, has come gradually over time. In 2002, Hamas' military wing was sanctioned by the EU; the action earlier this year also sanctions Hamas political wing. The delay in condemning the political wing seems to be for diplomatic considerations. The EU had in hopes to influencing Hamas in brokering a peace deal. However, after Hamas broke a ceasefire last summer, the EU decided that there was no point in being diplomatic with Hamas.

Perhaps such hope in diplomacy with Hamas was a mistake all along, but don't expect the EU to say that.

Nevertheless, Italy's initiative had little to do with the sanctioning. It just happened to come on her watch.

Reference: EU blacklists Hamas political wing, BBC, Thursday September 11

[el_gato]

25. IDF is a terrorist group too

they deserve each other

[Muddleoftheroad]

58. Ah, the standard Palestinian propaganda line

[bluesoul]

3. He still is.

As someone from a neigbouring country, I should know. And he is anti-Muslim which is evident...

[BlackFrancis]

20. He called Mussolini "the greatest statesman of the century"

He has in recent years tried to bully his followers out of their habit of giving fascist salutes and recently showered praise on Giorgio Perlasca, a "good fascist" in his words. After he fought for Franco and Hitler in Spain, he decided he didn't like the anti-Jewish laws and posed as a Spanish consul in Budapest to offer diplomatic protection to Hungarian Jews.

I guess you can be a "good fascist" as long as it's Muslims and Africans you heap invective and racist legislation upon and not cultured people like European Jews :eyes:

[Gimel]

50. Racist legislation

are you referring to the black list of the Hamas organization as racist legislation?

[BlackFrancis]

71. maybe in context

Put it in with the larger picture of Gianfranco Fini's agenda of denying public permits for mosques, expelling all foreigners, creating prison terms for any foreign worker who stays a day after the work they were doing ends and you can't misunderstand him.

Fini was head of Movimento Sociale Italiano, a hard core fascist party that regarded itself as Benito Mussolini's direct heir. His changes are cosmetic unless you believe that his new post-fascist party which seems to be nothing but fascism without it's anti-Jewish flavor is something worthwhile.

[Gimel]

77. I despise fascism

If fascist legislation is in his agenda, that should be delt with by the Italians.

His association is in the past tense, you have stated.

On edit: Check out this link:

Recently, he astounded Italy's political scene
when he overtook the liberal camp on the left
and suggested granting immigrants the vote.
Many now see Fini as Italy's next prime
minister.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=358069&contrassID=1

[Paschall]

81. I hate to disillusion you...

...but those dispositions to allow resident immigrants the vote and run for office in municipal elections were decided by the European Union. They have yet to be translated into national law throughout the EU, however. As I indicate above, Daniel Cohn-Bendit was one of the first to get them adopted on a local level.

Fini is only stepping forward where Italy is forced to step forward by EU law.

[aneerkoinos]

43. Neofascist sucking up to semifascist apartheid state

Nothing surprising there.

Also not surprising that Fini is lying. Hamas military wing had been outlawed by EU long time ago. The political wing only lately, IMHO mistakenly so.

[Gimel]

66. Understood

This is the very essence of the argument. Read the links I posted in #40. Those "charity" collections to Hamas were only a cover for the terrorists.

[Gimel]

68. Later denied

The claim about the Italian Muslems being responsible for the attack on the Italian base in Iraq was later disclaimed:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/364964.html