Vandals Put Swastikas on Graves in France

[drdon326]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20031126/ap_on_re_eu/france_anti_semitism

Vandals desecrated tombs at a Jewish cemetery in southern France, carving swastikas and other Nazi symbols into the headstones, officials said Tuesday.

Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin condemned the attack in Marseille as a "hateful manifestation of anti-Semitism." Seven tombs at the Trois-Lucs cemetery were covered with graffiti or damaged by pelted rocks, said Alain Marc, an official at the regional prefecture.

French President Jacques Chirac promised a tough crackdown on anti-Semitism after an arson attack on a Jewish school outside Paris this month. There were no injuries, but the building was gutted.

In the last two years, France has suffered a wave of violence against Jewish schools, temples and cemeteries that coincided with new fighting in the Middle East. Many of the attacks have been blamed on young Muslims.

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oh noooo way...its a conspiracy i tell you.

[bluesoul]

1. Nobody said it's a conspiracy

The fact is these were some neonazis that have a history of such actions. They're despicable people and I hope they get those responsible...

[Muddleoftheroad]

2. Again, given their history...

You have to take EVERYTHING into account.

[Paschall]

21. If you want to take everything into account...

...I wish you would.

Europe also brought you the Enlightenment-inspired American Revolution and democracy. It also brought you the slavery abolition movement. Something 18th century Africa or Asia certainly couldn't have done.

[rini]

3. unfortunately

these incidents have become so common they barely make the news anymore.

[bluesoul]

4. Common?

Define common? If you mean daily or weekly then you're wrong. No more common then Arabs/Muslims being discriminated or beaten somewhere in the world just for being Arab/Muslim...

[Muddleoftheroad]

5. Daily/weekly

Perhaps you ought to try some time in life as a minority and you will learn all about the discrimination that goes on in a daily/weekly basis.

[bluesoul]

6. Yeah, something that a

regular Palestinian has to put up daily through IDF raids and house demolishment...

[Muddleoftheroad]

7. Or an Israeli

From regular terror attacks. Or a Jew perhaps in France or Germany...

The difference is how much one contributes to the attacks. The Palestinians with their massive terror network and support of same ARE, in large part, enemies of Israel.

[bluesoul]

8. A Jew in France of Germany

has to put up with daily violence? Really? I have yet to hear about such incidents happening to them on such a basis in Europe. Mostly is that some statues are desecrated, that someone would be hurt or even killed only for being a Jew is a very rare thing in Europe. Since you're not here, I am not surprised by the ignorance and prejudice concerning.. You know absolutely nothing about Europe judging your comments. And even Israelis don't have to fear nothing even close to what Palestinians do. How many suicide attacks were there in all these years? And how many Palestinians houses demolished or people killed on the other side? Ah, forget it..

[Muddleoftheroad]

9. Daily anti-Semitism

Comes in many forms, most are NOT violent, but they are a violation nonetheless. As an African-American male, I know all about the forms discrimination takes.

Most discrimination is subtle. Events you aren't invited to. Jobs or promotions you don't get. Subtle jokes behind your back. Stereotypes that you can't avoid since ALL humans would exhibit some characteristics. Etc. It's insidious.

[bluesoul]

10. Well I can believe there is

discrimination going on around the world, but you can only speak for where you live and work, how can you know for Europe? Do you know for a fact that Jews in Europe are discriminated at work and can't get it because of what they are? How do you know what they go through or don't? You surely seem very certain about knowing exactly what goes on in Europe through daily life and work. I don't pretend I know what goes in the USA...

[Muddleoftheroad]

11. Europe

You act like none of us here a) Read, b) Know people, c) Have never travelled and made friends, etc.

Enough is certainly written about European anti-Semitism to fill volumes.

[bluesoul]

12. I read a lot of stuff and hear things

and it surely ain't happening in "volumes" that's for sure.. Maybe you want to believe it it because of prejudice and some anti-European sentiments I am detecting lately here, but that doesn't mean you're actually right about it. Anyway enough from my part...

[Paschall]

18. French police authorities track anti-Semitic crimes

They've dropped 40% in 2003 as compared to 2002.

[MikeGalos]

29. If you actually care about the facts

rather than trying to explain how prejudice against certaing groups does't really count, you might want to look at the October 2002 report by the ADL on European anti-Semitism.

He's a quick summary of some of the findings...

• 21% harbor strong anti-Semitic views. 34% in Spain, 23% in Italy, 22% in Switzerland, 19% in Austria, 7% in the Netherlands
  
• 56% believe Jews are more loyal to Israel than their own country. 72% in Spain, 58% in Italy, 54% in Austria, 49% in Switzerland, 48%, The Netherlands
  
• 40% believe that Jews have too much power in international financial markets. 71% in Spain
  
• 29% say Jews don't care about anyone but their own kind. Spain and Switzerland 34%
  
• 25% say Jews are more willing than others to use shady practices to get what they want. Spain 33%, Austria 28%, Italy and Switzerland 27%
  
• 49% believe Jews still talk too much about the Holocaust. Spain 57%, Austria 56%, Switzerland 52%, Italy 43%, The Netherlands 35%
  
• 53% believe the recent outbreak of violence against Jews in Europe is a result of anti-Israel sentiment and not traditional anti-Jewish feelings.
  
• 61% said they are "very concerned" or "fairly concerned" about violence directed against European Jews.
  
• 52% of Swiss and 49% of Dutch respondents believe that anti-Jewish feelings could rise within their countries.
  
• While a majority believe their governments are doing enough to ensure the safety and security of their Jewish citizens, 30% of Italian and Spanish respondents do not think their governments are doing enough, the highest percentage of any of the countries surveyed.
  
  
  You can download the full reports (both the 10/02 report on Austria, Italy, The Netherlands, Spain, and Switzerland and the 6/02 report on Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany and the United Kingdom) at http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ASInt_13/4185_13.asp or, of course, you can continue to ignorantly pontificate about a subject you are apparently totally unqualified to discuss.
  
  The survey, fielded in Europe by Taylor Nelson Sofres, has a margin of error of +/-4.4% at 95% level of confidence.
  
  The Anti-Defamation League, founded in 1913, is the world's leading organization fighting anti-Semitism through programs and services that counteract hatred, prejudice and bigotry.

[vierundzwanzig]

13. Dude

spend some time in Germany (the country I grew up in). I doubt there is a single place on the planet (short of the U.S.) that gives the Jews more of a royal treatment than Germany.

There is a variety of laws that only apply to the benefit of Jews.

There is a growing group of right-wingers, mostly motivated by economic decline, that are willing to blame the failure of their own lives on the Jews, the Tuks, the 'homos' or whatever other minority they can conjure up.

I am so sick and tired of this 'new anti-Semitism' jargon, which, if we repeat it just often enough and loud enough, will finally be accepted as fact.

There is heavy criticism of Israeli politics and calling the critics 'anti-Semites' or 'self-hating Jews' is not going to cut it any more.

Israel and Palestine have to face the music and ditch the rhetoric.

Victimology on either side is not helpful.

[pistoff democrat]

22. Dude

you said, "I doubt there is a single place on the planet (short of the U.S.) that gives the Jews more of a royal treatment than Germany."

Great news! I didn't know that Germany gave Jews 'royal treatment', unless you might be referring to something akin to "off with their heads".

Please provide evidence supporting the following:

1. there is a variety of laws that only apply the the benefit of Jews.

and

2. the sources of the royal treatment afforded Jews in the U.S.


Thanks!

[vierundzwanzig]

28. Here it is:

Just off the top off my head:

For Germany:

a.) Any Jew being able to prove his Jewish background will immediately nbe grated German (and therefore quite valuable) EU citizenship. Try that as an average American. It'll take you longer than getting a green card here.

- Holocaust deniers face serious consequences in Germany, very much opposed to the general freedom of speech granted there. While the Holocaust very much was an atrocious historical fact, I personally grant everybody his/her own opinions as crazy as they may be.

b.) As for the U.S.:
- The U.S. congress veciferously has endrosed and supported a variety of claims of 'Holocaust survivor claims' such as against in particular the Swiss banking system, enacting embargos of sorts that forced these banks to pony up money that, as a subsequent independent investigation turned out to be largely unbased on facts. However, congress that never bothered about the 'facts' ever put pressure on the Jewish groups (that ransacked the money for a variety of causes that were completely unrelated to Holocaust survivor compensation. Actually, the few that are still around have received but a pittance.

- The United States endorses a 'Jewish State'. It funnels 1/rd (or more) of its various foreign aid to this state based (according to its own definition) as being Jewish.

There are certainly many more examples but these just off the top off my head.

So, there certainly is no mass persecution of Jews in Germany or the U.S. but they are explicitly empowered in respect to other demographic groups.

I don't know about the French but as we used to say in Europe - The French hate everybody. There are some very particular oddities about the French political and legal system whose debate goes much beyond this forum.

Still, I hope I made my point.

[Paschall]

15. Really? What news is that, rini?

The French media? You've got to be kidding! These incidents get major coverage, even Presidential press conferences!

And since when do you read French and follow the French media?

Dis-moi, ma chère, s'il te plaît!

[rini]

26. Since I have family in

France, I follow their news closely. My uncle's grave (I believe but am not yet sure) was one of the desecrated graves, the rest is more than I want you to know.

I can read French if I choose to. I don't, nor do I choose to read German unless it is necessary.

[Paschall]

33. So you were referring to America media coverage of French events...

..when you said anti-Semitic attacks have become so common they barely get covered

If you bothered to read French you would see they get major coverage, as I say. Certainly the much more common acts of discrimination and violence against French Arabs/Muslims get far less media attention.

I hope you'll let us know if one of the seven tombs desecrated was your uncle's. I assume you're in contact with your family in France and they will inform you quickly; I guess they know by now. My sincerest hopes that his tomb has been untouched.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Paschall]

16. Right you are, no relation to Israel/Palestine per DU rules

And actually such attacks in the past on Jewish cemeteries in France--because they have occured before--were perpetrated by either (1) white neo-nazi extremists or (2) dumbass rich white kids playing Let's Do a Satanic Ritual. As far as I know, no attack on a Jewish cemetery in France has ever been attributed to a French Arab or Muslim.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Spider Jerusalem]

20. Tell me...

exactly how was I to interpret your sarcastic comment that this was a "conspiracy" to paint Muslims as hate-crazed anti-Semitic vandals? If I was in error, then you have a sincere apology; but perhaps YOU might want to rethink your phrasing and try for just a little more clarity next time.

[drdon326]

23. Unbelieveable....

you make all kinds of baseless accusations and THEN ask
me what i meant??

My comment was a obvious sarcastic reference to to the rise
of anti-semitism in europe and how its a conspiracy.

Thanks for taking a pathetic cheap shot.

Perhaps you want to read alittle more on this rather
than shoot your mouth off.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=anti-semitic+attacks+on+jewish+cemeteries+in+france&spell=1

nice to meet you again.

[Spider Jerusalem]

27. If it was "obvious"...

then why didn't I get it? Obvious to YOU, maybe. And "conspiracy" implies concerted organised effort of a group, not the isolated random acts of small numbers of antisocial yahoos (who, as Paschall noted, aren't even known to be Muslim).

And I actually DID read more on the issue after I read the initial post (NOW look who's making assumptions), and from what I can gather these acts of vandalism are most probably the work of neofascist fringe groups,possibly allied with Le Pen's Front Nationale, and perhaps with the ultimate aim of fomenting anti-Arab sentiment and justifying repressive legislation against Muslims, by creating the impression Muslims are responsible; this aside from the anti-Semitism of the act itself. Anyway, that's my take; I could be wrong.

[tinnypriv]

19. Man, you've made 500+ posts and none of those zingers down here?

Stick around! :D

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Paschall]

25. Well, to be perfectly fair

This story is related in some way to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict because the latest wave of anti-Semitic attacks in Europe was spurred by the death of the Oslo peace process and the start of the latest intifada.

Unfortunately, we Europeans foresaw this, just as we foresaw the eventual rise in such violence here as a result of the Iraq invasion.

It's rather grim to compare statistics of violence against different minority groups, but it is undeniable that Arabs/Muslims in France suffer not only real violence but other forms of discrimination in greater numbers than do French Jews--and that is true regardless of the state of affairs in Israel/Palestine. Some of this is simple racism, some of it can be attributed to the ever-present memories of the brutal Franco-Algerian war. Joblessness, for example, affects up to 30% of French Arabs in some communities. And they are much more likely to be victims of police brutality.

[MikeGalos]

30. Well, some would say that

on the other hand, there's no evidence to back it up other than wishful thinking of the people saying it that they're not allied with actual bigots and racists. The alliance of many "we're only anti-Israel" groups earlier this year with David Duke was defended often enough here. But, certainly, allying with David Duke isn't a sign of any racism...

Sorry to break it to you but there's a global rise in anti-Semitic attitudes not related to Israel or Palestine. Some of it likely due to the economic problems since the Bush kleptocrats took office and some of it likely due to the social stigma against Jew-bashing after World War II has worn off.

But, you could be right and it's all the victim's fault...

[Paschall]

32. I said it was all the victim's fault?

Where?

[Classical_Liberal]

31. Maybe, but the rules should be a two way street.

.