US senators press Clinton on anti-Israel 'incitement'

[oberliner]

WASHINGTON — Twenty-seven US senators pressed Secretary of State Hillary Clinton Tuesday to make clear to Palestinian leaders that any incitement to violence against Israel or Jews is "not tolerable."

"We would like to know what specific steps you are taking to press for an end to this dangerous incitement," the lawmakers wrote in a letter to Clinton urging action after the grisly stabbing slayings of a family of five Israelis, including three children.

"The Itamar massacre was a sobering reminder that words matter, and that Palestinian incitement against Jews and Israel can lead to violence and terror," the group, which included Democrats and Republicans, said in their message.

"We urge you to redouble your efforts to impress upon the Palestinian leadership that continuing to condone incitement is not tolerable. We also urge you to consider focusing adequate training and educational programs in the West Bank and Gaza that promote peaceful coexistence with Israel," they said.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jKJC_kLi9em4-bt3ZOHF6V2TeOYg

Can anyone name those 27 senators? Don't look it up - no cheating!

[azurnoir]

1. actually I have no idea but I'll venture a guess that

Gillebrand and Kyl are arm in arm again

[oberliner]

2. Do you mean Gillibrand and Kirk?

If so, you have correctly identified the two who led this initiative.

Among the signatories are an even split of Democrats and Republicans.

[azurnoir]

3. post the list please n/t

[azurnoir]

4. would these be the 27?

Mark Kirk

Kirsten E. Gillibrand

Jon Kyl

Robert Menendez

Barbara A. Mikulski

Mary L. Landrieu

James E. Risch

Charles E. Schumer

James M. Inhofe

Ron Wyden

Pat Roberts

Joseph L. Lieberman

Frank R. Lautenberg

Amy Klobuchar

Jerry Moran

Robert P. Casey, Jr.

John Ensign

Benjamin L. Cardin

Roger Wicker

Bill Nelson

Roy Blunt

John Boozman

Patrick J. Toomey

Sherrod Brown

John Barrasso

Mike Crapo

Jon Tester

I see both Kirk and Kyl on the list

[oberliner]

9. You didn't post a link

What is your source for that list?

[azurnoir]

16. no I did not there is no link, but are they the 27? n/t

[oberliner]

18. What do you mean "there is no link" - where did you get the list from?

It looks like a cut-and-paste job to me.

Am I wrong?

[azurnoir]

19. seems like your trying to avoid answering whether or not the list is accurate

am I wrong?

[oberliner]

20. Seems like you're trying to avoid saying where you got the list from

Am I wrong?

[azurnoir]

21. Lol it was emailed to me that's why there's no link and why when I posted it I asked if it was

correct if you remember something you still have not answered, why?

[oberliner]

22. It was emailed to you?

That's rather a coincidence isn't it?

Also, how would I know if it was correct? I was asking if we could try to see if we could guess who the signers might be without looking it up, but apparently, you looked it up (or had the incredibly good fortune of having someone email you that exact information shortly after I asked the question).

[azurnoir]

24. no it wasn't at all a coincidence it was my SIL whom I was talking to

at the time I first read your OP she's a huge Hilary supporter, so I asked her, I don't know where she got it

[oberliner]

27. Oh ok

If you find a link, let me know.

[azurnoir]

28. well if you find a list let us know

I had the impression from the comment in your OP that you already knrw

[azurnoir]

42. found a link it's in comment#39 along with the text of the letter

my SIL got the list from a yahoo user group or at least that's what she told me when I asked

[LeftishBrit]

25. Off topic...

but I couldn't help giggling a bit at seeing that there are three Republican senators called 'Moran', 'Boozman' and 'Crapo'.

I can see that the list, assuming it's accurate, is bipartisan - but none of the Democrats have such funny (and descriptive in the case of the Republicans?) names.

[oberliner]

26. That is very amusing

Imagine what the RW talk show hosts would do with one of those names if they were Democrats running for president!

[howaboutme]

5. "The Itamar massacre" or a second iteration of the Lavon Affair?

Israel has proven to be without scruples when it comes to the use of false flags and making massacres and things happen that appear to benefit them, while it kills or involves others and even friendlies. They have had a history of portraying Muslims as the villains.

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/False_flag

[LeftishBrit]

6. Good God.

Any *actual* evidence for that vile accusation, other than something that happened over 50 years ago?

You seem to hate EVERYTHING connected with Israel so much that you can't think straight.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cali]

11. just about every nation has a history of false flags

but ascribing this to the Israelis is fairly ludicrous.

[oberliner]

13. How could they be the most adept and the most incompetent at the same time?

Isn't that a contradiction?

[howaboutme]

29. It is adept if one robs a bank and gets away with it.

It is incompetent to rob a bank and be caught. Bank robbers can be both.

I'll never explain why Israel has had a history of this. My sense is Israel has gotten away with more than we'll ever know and probably enough that if the American people ever did know, it would a game changer. We (USA) have likely gotten away with our own false flags (Operation Northwoods) too, but it is unlikely that ours were directed at Israel.

The Lavon Affair, USS Liberty, the Australian passport coverup, etc were terrorist or assasination operations intended to blame the Egyptians, Australians or others. This isn't my opinion, these are historical facts. Read Ostrovsky's book for insight.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3ALavon_Affair

[LeftishBrit]

31. 'My sense is that Israel has gotten away with more...'

Like it was the Right's 'sense' that Saddam had WMD and that Iraq probably had something to do with 9-11. Only they didn't. And this 'sense' resulted in a disastrous war.

Having a 'sense' without evidence is really a polite word for prejudice.

[King_David]

8. yes its disgusting

[cali]

10. wow.

I'm speechless.

[oberliner]

14. Why do you think no arrests have been made in this attack?

There have literally been zero details released by Israel about potential suspects or leads.

Isn't that unusual?

It's been almost three weeks. No leads? No suspects? Nothing to announce?

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LeftishBrit]

15. I agree with this in principle...

but I would be interested to know whether the same senators have also promoted any condemnations of incitement by Tea Party activists and anti-immigrant groups in America - especially in view of the near-murder of Gabrielle Giffords and the massacre of six others in the same incident; and of the brutal murder of a father and child by an anti-immigrant 'activist'.

None of these episodes, of course, justify hate-speech, let alone murder, in Israel or the West Bank; but I always think that condemnation of violence has to begin at, or at least include, home - on the same principle as I think that British activists should try arresting Blair for his war crimes before they arrest Livni.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

17. "Incitement" is a deliberately vague word; the one-line summary does not appear accurate.

What the newspaper says is "WASHINGTON — Twenty-seven US senators pressed Secretary of State Hillary Clinton Tuesday to make clear to Palestinian leaders that any incitement to violence against Israel or Jews is "not tolerable."".

This doesn't appear to be what the Senators are actually saying. They're not just condemning incitement to violence - which I would wholeheartedly agree with - but "incitement against Israel", a phrase which covers a multitude of sins.

Specifically, it covers saying "What the Israeli government is doing, with the full support of the vast majority of Jewish Israeli citizens, is wicked and hateful, and we should encourage the rest of the world to condemn Israel and impose sanctions upon it to make it stop" - which the Palestinians have every right to be saying to the world - and "the main (although not the only) reason your lives are so awful is that the Israelis drove us out of our homes and won't let us go back, and continue to persecute and oppress us to this day" - which the Palestinians have every right to teach their children.

[oberliner]

23. Incitement is a very specific word with a clear definition that is completely accurate

Your objection is baseless, unfounded, and borderline nonsensical.

Whatever you are imagining is implied only exists in your own mind.

[shaayecanaan]

30. Perhaps the Palestinians should demand that the United States rein in Glen Beck, Michael Savage etc

Gosh, the Palestinians are providing security, stability and progress in the West Bank...I wonder what we can complain about? I know, we'll bitch and moan that Palestinian newspapers are writing editorials that we don't like.

So the Itamar massacre was the fault of the Palestinian media? I suppose that means the Gabrielle Giffords shooting was the fault of the US media - or does it not work that way?

Funnily enough, I had this vague notion that the United States stood for free speech...

[LeftishBrit]

32. Indeed, perhaps they should.

Better still, perhaps the Americans should demand that the United States rein in Glen Beck, Michael Savage etc.

And perhaps the British should demand that the UK should reign in the tabloids and their incitement against immigrants.

There is hate-speech and incitement in many places, and it is dangerous and to be condemned wherever it occurs.

[howaboutme]

33. Speaking of "incitement" - what about the Israeli media and pols?

LB - Why are the Israeli media and politicians excluded from the incitement issue?

You are critical of incitement against immigration in the UK and USA even though these nations unlike Israel have open non-racist immigration policies.

Are all Israelis treated fairly and with equality or does it depend upon race?

http://www.aljazeerah.info/Documents/ISRAELI%20INCITEMENT%20AGAINST%20PALESTINIANS.htm

The Palestinians were treated unfairly as were the native Americans. They were both forcibly stripped of their homes and land by arbitrary institutional forces kowtowing to money and it occurred because both groups were out gunned by their new overlords.

Israel is either going to become an example of an open fair society that welcomes all, or it will become a pariah. There comes a time when the world sees through double standards and devious behavior that is intended to manipulate.

[LeftishBrit]

35. The UK has non-racist immigration policies?

Bwahahahahahahaha!

'Are all Israelis treated fairly and with equality or does it depend upon race?'

No they aren't all treated fairly and equally. And yes, Israeli media/RW politicians' incitements are to be condemned; and I have done so in other posts.

But having read some of your other posts, I don't think you're someone with whom I can have a dialogue; and you are the first person I've said that to, in all my four years on the I/P forum - and it's NOT because you are pro-Palestinian; it's because you will accept absolutely any wild conspiracy theory when it concerns Israel and 'Zionists'. And my post will probably now be deleted, but if you want to be taken seriously, stop coming up with these wild conspiracy theories.

[howaboutme]

36. You don't agree?

Fine I don't agree with many people but I still welcome dialogue.

Why move the discussion to the UK when the thread is about Israel and the Pals, and what was behind the killing of the settlers. I don't agree that it is a given that the settlers were killed by Palestinians or through incitement of the Palestinians. Nobody has been charged. Frankly if I experienced the victim hood of these people over the decades I'd be more than pissed, but that's me.

My posts regarding the Israeli use of false flags aren't "conspiracy" they are historical facts. Google it. It is common knowledge. It is also common knowledge that Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Hispanics, Baptists and other religious or ethnic groups are not welcome in Israel. Until that changes --- sorry but you will have to excuse my lack of respect for the leaders and the nation.

[LeftishBrit]

37. 'Why move it to the UK?'

My main comment was about the US. I thought that if American senators are against hate-incitement abroad, they should be also against it at home. I mentioned (because of my own experience here) that it's an issue in the UK too. FWIW, it's my impression that at present there's a worse problem with incitement in the USA than the UK.

'It is also common knowledge that Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Hispanics, Baptists and other religious or ethnic groups are not welcome in Israel.'

Umm, 17% of Israeli citizens are Muslim, and 3% are Christian. They may suffer discrimination as mostly being Arabs; but they are *there*. Israel is more religiously diverse than most countries in the Middle East, for what it's worth. And 'Hispanic' is not a religious or specific ethnic group but covers a variety of backgrounds with links to Spanish language and culture, and there are in fact quite a lot of Israeli Jews of essentially Hispanic ultimate origin (the word 'Sephardic' *means* Spanish). And for a supposed Jewish racist supremacist state, that won't let any non-Jews in, Israel isn't doing too well! Just three-quarters of its citizens are Jews. I can imagine the SCREAMS in the media in the 'non-racist' UK, if 25% of the population wasn't of British origin and the percentage was increasing.

I have NO respect for most of the current Israeli leaders. As regards the nation - well, they're people. Same as any other nation. I'll take them on an individual basis, the same as those of other nations.

I don't agree with lots of people either - most people on this forum are either significantly more pro-Israel or significantly more pro-Palestinian than I am, and I've often ended up arguing with opposite sides on the same thread. But automatically assuming that murder victims, just because of their nationality, must have been used in a 'false flag' operation, exceeds my personal limits. For one thing, it just reminds me too much of the Right's assumptions about Iraq. For another, the arguments remind me a bit too much of those that are easy to find on hate-sites.

[shaayecanaan]

44. no, they should not (nt)

[shira]

41. When Beck and Savage become militant David Dukes in charge of deliberate government incitement...

....then you'll have made an appropriate comparison.

Here's PMW to prove the point...
http://www.palwatch.org/

As awful as Beck and Savage are, the PA is about 1000x more Rightwing and worse.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

34. "Incitement" without "to" is a meaningless word.

One incites *to* something, one does not simply "incite".

The two common uses are "incitement to violence" and "incitement to hatred". These are very different matters.

So no, it is you who is talking nonsense, I'm afraid.

[oberliner]

38. The letter refers to incitement to violence and terror

Clear examples of exactly what is being referenced are included in the text.

[azurnoir]

39. Here are the examples as listed in the letter

the link includes the text of said letter and the list Senators that are signatories

On March 9, 2011, PA President Mahmoud Abbas' advisor, Sabri Saidam, delivered a speech in which he emphasized that Palestinian weapons must be turned towards Israel. Saidam reportedly demanded that the Palestinian people be attentive to the living conditions of martyrs' families and said that the anniversary of the death of Dalal Mughrabi (one of the perpetrators of a 1978 coastal highway massacre) should be marked by inaugurating a square in her name in the city of El-Bireh.

On February 9, 2011, the official Palestinian television station broadcast a clip from a campaign entitled "Women as Exemplars," during which Dalal Mughrabi (see above) was extolled. In the summer of 2010, several children's summer camps were named after her.

On January 24, 2011, the Governor of Jenin issued a Presidential Grant worth $2,000 to the family of a Palestinian terrorist, Khaldoun Samoudi, who was killed while trying to detonate two bombs against Israeli soldiers at the Beka'ot Crossing.

On January 2, 2011, Al Hayat Al-Jadida reported that Azzam Al-Ahmed, a member of the Fatah Central Committee, attended a gathering on the 46th anniversary of the establishment of Fatah during which models of settlement buildings were blown up. He reportedly reviewed terrorist attacks perpetrated by Fatah and said that, "Fatah is a mass movement which believed in popular revolution and wrested its right to use all means of resistance in order to achieve its aim."


Sincerely,

Mark Kirk

Kirsten E. Gillibrand

Jon Kyl

Robert Menendez

Barbara A. Mikulski

Mary L. Landrieu

James E. Risch

Charles E. Schumer

James M. Inhofe

Ron Wyden

Pat Roberts

Joseph L. Lieberman

Frank R. Lautenberg

Amy Klobuchar

Jerry Moran

Robert P. Casey, Jr.

John Ensign

Benjamin L. Cardin

Roger Wicker

Bill Nelson

Roy Blunt

John Boozman

Patrick J. Toomey

Sherrod Brown

John Barrasso

Mike Crapo

Jon Tester

http://kirk.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=119


note to mods this is from website of one of the Republicab signers because I could not find said letter on the website(s) of the Democrat Senators that I checked

[Donald Ian Rankin]

40. No, it doesn't. It refers to "incitement which can lead to violence and terror".

A completely different kettle of fish.

All the examples listed in the thing are of incitement to violence, but the word "incitement" is regularly used as a dog-whistle by the Israeli right and its supporters to cover a much broader range of things, which is why it needs to be handled with extreme care, and not used without a "to".

Please read in detail before accusing me of talking nonsense...

[oberliner]

43. Yes it does

The exact same kettle of fish.

Consider reading the letter again. The word does not need to be handed with any more "extreme care" than any other word.

The only person hearing an imagined "dog-whistle" appears to be you.

Edit to add:

Interestingly, you've used the word "incitement" on this board in the past in the exact way that you are arguing that it should not be used.

With respect to Iran and Israel, you wrote:

"If the present level of Israeli incitement continues, I think it would be reasonable."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=309277&mesg_id=309395

I see no "to" in that sentence - and you were the one who introduced the word "incitement" into the discussion.

I wonder if you were sending out a "dog whistle" to certain people with that post.