Gaza militants fire dozens of rockets into southern Israel

[oberliner]

Dozens of rockets and mortar shells were fired at Israel from Gaza on Saturday, and more than 80 rockets were fired at Israel's southern towns since Friday night.

Two Grad rockets were fired at the southern Israeli city of Ofakim on Saturday, shortly after 24 mortar shells were fired at the Eshkol Regional Council.

Iron Dome intercepted a rocket fired at Be'er Sheva early Saturday as 14 rockets fired by Gaza militants landed in Israeli territory overnight. One rocket reached deeper into Israel, landing north of Ashdod.

Residents of southern Israel spent the night in protected areas as cross-border fire with Gaza militants seriously escalated overnight.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/gaza-militants-fire-dozens-of-rockets-into-southern-israel-1.354950

[Ken Burch]

1. Perhaps this indicates that killing that Hamas commander may not have been such a good idea

Just a thought.

[sellitman]

2. Perhaps aiming at innocent civilians isn't a good idea?

A Hamas Commander isn't a civilian.

Equating the two is absurd.

[Ken Burch]

3. I don't like Hamas commanders, or any other military commanders

And don't condone the rocket attacks.

Just pointing out that killing the guy was likely to cause others in Hamas to do something like this. It kind of makes a case for not killing any more of them.

Clearly, this proves that killing people like that guy can't possibly succeed in getting Hamas to act differently.

You do recall the definition of insanity, don't you?

[sellitman]

4. War is insanity

Purposely targeting civilians is something less.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[shira]

39. That looks to be the case. And if Iran wants it, they'll do it. n/t

[King_David]

10. Yea they should just allow them to plot more Passover Massacres

Sit back and do nothing. :sarcasm:

[Ken Burch]

33. Wasn't saying that(and you know that, of course)what I was actually saying

Is that they shouldn't just stick with what doesn't work. And the hardline approach to Gaza has been proven to be a total failure. If it worked, there wouldn't BE any rockets landing on Sderot.

[King_David]

36. Well the only thing that will `work` with Hamas :

Is handing over ALL of Israel and the Jews leaving en masses,but that aint going to happen EVER .

[shira]

38. If you think Hamas can be reasoned with or could ever be content with a Jewish state in existence...

....then you know nothing about I/P.

[Ken Burch]

42. Actually, they've indicated a willingness to compromise.

The compromise doesn't have to be made BEFORE negotiations start.

It was always silly, for example, to insist that the PLO recognize Israel BEFORE negotiations when they'd said they'd recognize it DURING the negotiations or at their end. It didn't matter when the recognition happened so long as it DID happen.

[shira]

45. No they haven't, ever. n/t

[Ken Burch]

47. the proposal for a "hudna" WAS a compromise

It was a preliminary statement that, if explored, could well have led to much more.

I've also seen statements where people in the Hamas leadership said they could at least consider the idea of accepting Israel.

Given that it's impossible to militarily wipe out Hamas without massive loss of civilian Palestinian life and without causing it to be replaced by a MORE extreme and intransigent group, what alternative is there to seeking some sort of compromise?

It's time to stop perpetually demanding a massive war against Hamas. Such a war isn't winnable and could never lead the Palestinian people to decide to accept Israel, or to accept only getting a Palestinian state created on Israeli terms.

[oberliner]

48. How about an election?

Aren't they overdue?

That will be the end of Hamas rule without any loss of civilian life.

[Ken Burch]

49. Fine, that would be a good idea.

Israeli military action against Gaza can't make that happen, however.

[oberliner]

50. What can make that happen?

It's been over five years now.

[Ken Burch]

51. I don't know, and I'd be a fool to speculate.

But it's nothing that can be made to happen by people from outside. And the worst possible way to try to make it happen, OTHER than the all-out war that shira probably wants, is for those of us in other places to demand that Hamas be overthrown by the people of Gaza just to satisfy other people. To do that is to bring back all kinds of associations with colonialism and Western presumptions of inherent cultural superiority, neither of which can ever be helpful in this context.

[oberliner]

52. But aren't you asking Israel to make changes? Isn't that from outside as well?

I'm not sure why you are reluctant to suggest policy changes for Palestinians but not for Israelis.

[Ken Burch]

56. I'm not justifying Hamas rocket attacks on Israel while calling for the Israeli government to change

Nor would I advocate having Hamas start a "settlement project" on Israeli territory while saying such things.

To me, the constant referencing of the rocket attacks in defense of hardline Israeli policies is comparable to the using accusations of African National Congress "terrorism"(or the "necklacing" practiced by Winnie Mandela and her more unhinged supporters on those they saw as "collaborators") to justify the preservation of the South African apartheid system.

What you forget is that Israel totally has the upper hand in the power dynamic and, for that reason, more must be asked of it first.
You can't demand that the oppressed change before the oppressor does.

Let's be honest here...if the Palestinians were using Gandhian civil disobedience as their sole tactic, much of the Israeli political class would STILL be insisting that their resistance, even if nonviolent, be crushed by any means necessary. This is the way ALL occupying powers act towards those they keep under occupation.

[oberliner]

60. There is no apartheid system in Gaza

There are no settlements in Gaza. There are no checkpoints within Gaza. There is no separation wall inside Gaza.

Why do you think there are rockets being launched at Israel from Gaza, but not from the West Bank where there are settlements, checkpoints, and a separation wall?

[Ken Burch]

61. Gaza is, essentially, a bantustan.

So is the West Bank at this point. That is the where the parallel to apartheid comes in.

[shira]

54. Do you know what a hudna is? And while you're at it, explain what the terms of that hudna are. n/t

[Ken Burch]

55. It's a starting position

They could have moved on from there if they'd been shown they had something to gain for their constituents in doing so.

And a "hudna" doesn't have to mean dhimmitude-especially since Israel would have continued to exist under that proposal.

[shira]

58. Do you actually know what Hamas' hudna is about? It's not a starting point at all.

I'll ask again for you to state what Hamas' terms are for a hudna. I'll assume if you're once again unwilling to state what their terms are then you are too embarassed to do so - knowing the hudna is not a compromise or starting point at all.

[Ken Burch]

62. They want right of return and no settlements in East Jerusalem

But even Hamas isn't demanding literal right of return for all refugees...they want a small number to be allowed home and compensation for the rest, with an admission that the rest, symbolically, would have their right acknowledged with their actually going home.

And clearly there have already been all the settlements in East Jerusalem that are needed. The Israelis have no right to build more and still claim to want peace. If you want peace, you don't keep chipping away at the other side's territory.

[shira]

5. Hamas is increasing their attacks once again. Where is the UN? Peace activists?

This is the time to speak up, before OCL part 2.

Where is the outrage?

[azurnoir]

7. Ban calls for 'immediate end' to fire

UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon "condemned the recent rocket fire from Palestinian militants, which hit a school bus and injured two Israeli civilians," his spokesperson said in a Thursday statement.

"He calls for an immediate end to rocket fire," the spokesman said, adding that Ban was also concerned "at reports of civilian casualties from Israeli operations in Gaza and calls for maximum restraint. He urges respect for international humanitarian law and calls for de-escalation and calm to prevent any further bloodshed."

Hamas announced a ceasefire deal at 11 p.m. on Thursday, which was followed by a midnight air strike.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=376728


SECRETARY-GENERAL MEETS WITH ISRAELI PRESIDENT IN NEW YORK; CONDEMNS ROCKET FIRE FROM GAZA

* The Secretary-General and Israeli President Shimon Peres discussed the worrying impasse in the Middle East peace process and the urgent need for a way forward, in a meeting this morning.

* The Secretary-General repeated his condemnation of militant rocket fire from Gaza, and expressed his serious concern about Palestinian civilian casualties in Israeli military operations. He called for maximum restraint.

* The Spokesperson’s Office on Thursday night put out a statement in which the Secretary-General condemned the recent rocket fire from Palestinian militants, which hit a school bus and injured two Israeli civilians He calls for an immediate end to rocket fire.

* The Secretary-General is also concerned at reports of civilian casualties from Israeli operations in Gaza and calls for maximum restraint.

* The Secretary-General and President Peres also discussed the Goldstone report and regional developments.

http://www.un.org/News/ossg/hilites.htm

[oberliner]

8. Several Gaza rockets fired at Ashkelon, western Negev

Over five rockets were fired Saturday afternoon from Gaza towards Ashkelon and the western Negev. No injuries were reported.

One rocket exploded in an industrial area south of Ashkelon, and another exploded near a town in the Ashkelon Coast Regional Council. Another three rockets fell in open areas.

http://www.jpost.com/Defense/Article.aspx?id=215842

[azurnoir]

13. and we almost certainly will see IDF/IAF retaliation

within hours

[oberliner]

16. Do you think that strange?

Would any country allow itself to be hit with rocket and mortar attacks with no retaliation of any kind?

[azurnoir]

18. no I think to be expected were you hoping for something else? n/t

[oberliner]

19. Expected of Israel or expected of any country?

Clarification on that note please if you would.

[azurnoir]

21. so what you really want is an absolution of Israel?

it is expected of Israel in this situation, Hamas asked for a cease fire and was answered with a bombing attack, I think most countries seeking peace rather than revenge would have accepted the cease fire, however this case is different Hamas apparently does not have total control over all factions in Gaza and Israel has no interest that it does have an interest in a show of military strength and after it's claims of being 'shriven' of all guilt by Goldstone last week has little compunction to stop
Would every country in the world react the same honestly I do not know that answer I suspect it would vary though

[oberliner]

24. Absolutely not

I want to know what you think Israel ought to do.

Are they behaving unreasonably given the context?

[azurnoir]

27. but that is not what your original question was

"Expected of Israel or expected of any country?

Clarification on that note please if you would"

now you want an answer to the classic well what else can Israel do?

I said what I expected of Israel given the context as you put it, Israel could have honored the request for a cease fire Thursday it did not instead it answered with a bombing attack,, Hamas or Gaza militants could have ceased fire they have not, there is no real answer here given that neither side is willing to give the other the last word so to speak

[oberliner]

28. Yes it was

Are they behaving the way any country would behave or are they behaving in a way that only Israel would?

Same exact question. Still no answer.

Incidentally, Hamas itself did not observe its own so-called cease fire.

[azurnoir]

31. you got an answer in comment #21

and you subtly change the question with each post

lets review

#19 Expected of Israel or expected of any country?

Clarification on that note please if you would.


# 24 I want to know what you think Israel ought to do.

Are they behaving unreasonably given the context?


#28 Are they behaving the way any country would behave or are they behaving in a way that only Israel would?

[shira]

9. No war crimes accusations for the laser guided missile attack at an Israeli schoolbus?

Oh yeah, it's only a war crime when Israel is libeled by the haters and accused of deliberately murdering Palestinian children.

:eyes:

[oberliner]

11. Hamas says didn't mean to target Israeli school bus

Hamas said on Saturday its militants did not intend to target Israeli schoolchildren when they fired a rocket at a bus two days ago, critically wounding a teenager and moderately wounding the bus driver, in an attack that sparked the latest round of border fighting.

"It was not known that the bus targeted on the outskirts of Gaza carried schoolchildren," spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri told Reuters, adding that the road where the bus was travelling was often used by Israeli military vehicles

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/hamas-says-didn-t-mean-to-target-israeli-school-bus-1.354967

Make of that what you will.

[azurnoir]

14. has not/will not make much difference n/t

[Countdown_3_2_1]

32. Bullshit.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

65. The picture says a lot...nt

[azurnoir]

12. nope and none for the mother and child killed in Gaza

by IDF retaliation either.

[oberliner]

15. Mother and child were deliberately targeted?

Link, please.

[azurnoir]

17. does it matter they are dead aren't they? n/t

[oberliner]

20. It absolutely matters

Deliberately targeting civilians is a war crime.

[azurnoir]

22. delete accidental double post n/t

[azurnoir]

23. of course it matters to those wanting deaths caused by Israel to be somehow wiped clean

but it does not make those killed any less dead, personally it makes little difference to me the dead no matter who they are, are still dead, the maimed no matter who they are are still maimed, nothing here absolves either side IMO

[oberliner]

25. Nothing to do with that

International law makes the distinction - nothing to do with Israel or any other particular country - just in general.

Do you not feel that it is a distinction worth making?

[azurnoir]

26. so we're talking the difference between say murder one and accidental homicide?

but it seems that when ever Gaza militants kill an Israel whether it a civilian or military it is always murder one and when Israel kills civilians it's always accidental homicide and when it 'militants' it's always 'justifiable homicide', but by the sheer numbers of accidental homicides Israel seems to commit there should be some sort culpability, but there seems not to be any

now of course that distinction you cite should be made the question is when should it be made and who should be held responsible, the difference here is that some would both sides responsible and others would hold only the Palestinian side responsible

[oberliner]

29. No

We are talking about deliberately targeting civilians which is a violation of international law and not deliberately targeting civilians which isn't.

Why does international law make such a distinction? Should there not be one?

[azurnoir]

30. I already answered that in the post you are replying to,

I take it you did not like the answer or assume that no one reads beyond the title line

[Ken Burch]

34. Why are you so obsessed with ALWAYS saying "it's ok when Israel does it"?

What both sides have done in the Gaza dispute is morally equivalent and equally wrong. That is the only fair-minded position to take. Fixating on an insistence that the actions of the IDF are somehow ALWAYS morally superior to the actions of Hamas serves no purpose, trivializes the loss of life on both sides, and reduces the whole business to an empty exercise in point-scoring.

It's morally numb to make the distinctions you make on this.

The focus should be on actually ENDING the conflict, not on proving one side is saintly while the other is Satanic.

[shira]

37. This is one reason you can't be taken seriously...

Israeli defense vs. Hamas terror is never morally the same or equally wrong.

[Ken Burch]

40. Killing is killing.

I condemn the rockets and repeatedly have done. Operation Cast Lead was morally indistinguishable from the rockets.

There's no reason to keep trying to say "our side's better, our side's better". NEITHER side's leadership can claim to be moral. Both serve the people they purport to lead very badly. Both need to be replaced.

[shira]

41. No it's not. And no society equates unintentional killing to premeditated 1st degree murder.

You can't be taken seriously.

If it were up to you, you'd convict the police officer having to use his gun (but doing it to the best of his ability) just as fast as a cold blooded psychotic murderer.

[Ken Burch]

43. You can't just assume that all IDF killings of Palestinian civilians were unintentional

The "Two kills with one bullet" t-shirt proved that soldiers in that army are as capable of senseless cruelty as soldiers of any other army.

It serves no purpose to keep pretending that Israel is morally superior when it isn't. Both sides, at many points, have had the blood of innocents on their hands. And an obsession with saying "our side is better" cannot serve the cause of peace at all.

[shira]

44. You can't just assume all or most IDF killings are intentional...

Did you believe Goldstone's original assertion that Israel and its IDF, as a matter of policy, intended to deliberately target and terrorize civilians?

As to the t-shirts, do you not realize the difference b/w how Israel and its society treats those people vs. Hamas? Hamas would boast of that.

I'm aware it's nearly impossible for you to admit that.

[Ken Burch]

46. I didn't say ALL or MOST IDF killings. And you know it.

n/t.

[shira]

53. But you believed all of Goldstone's assertions before he retracted, didn't you?

In fact, when did you ever state you didn't buy into Goldstone's accusation that the IDF set out to intentionally target and terrorize Palestinians during OCL?

[Douglas Carpenter]

57. Jerusalem Post: Goldstone denies intention to retract UN report

Goldstone denies intention to retract UN report

By JPOST.COM STAFF
04/06/2011 07:39

In AP interview, judge Goldstone refutes Yishai's claims that he promised to seek nullification for his report on Operation Cast

South African jurist Richard Goldstone denied Interior Minister Eli Yishai's claim that he planned to work to nullify his report on the the IDF's Operation Cast Lead in 2009, the Associated Press reported Wednesday.

Goldstone, in an interview with the Associated Press, said that Yishai had called to thank him for his Washington Post op-ed piece, but that the two never discussed the actual report. Goldstone said that he had responded to Yishai's thanks, telling him his utmost concern was for "truth, justice, and human rights."

snip:

As for his report on the 2009 Gaza offensive, Goldstone reiterated that the "intentionality on the part of Israel" required review, and that "domestic investigation could lead to further reconsideration." The judge concluded, however, that no part of the report needed reconsideration at the present time.

http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=215347

[shira]

59. Goldstone retracted THE central premise of his report. THAT was the entire theme of the report..

Everything else in the report was just politically motivated spin (that Goldstone admitted wouldn't hold up in a court of law) to support that false premise.

The report is now worthless.

[Ken Burch]

63. No it isn't.

Retracting the intentional targeting portion doesn't discredit any of the rest.

And you have no reason to object to any of the reset. Israel was not right to do all that it did in OCL. And the IDF had now forever lost any right to claim to be "the most moral army in the world". The truth is, armies are never really moral, since war can't actually be moral.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

64. From what I have read it was an RPG, not laser guided

Otherwise IDF armor would be in serious trouble

[azurnoir]

35. Death toll rises in deadly Gaza strikes

Israeli airstrikes on Gaza renewed late Saturday killing a Palestinian and injuring four others amid a barrage of projectiles targeting Israel's western Negev desert.

A drone-fired missile targeting the Zeitoun neighborhood in Gaza City injured four people, two critically, and killed Raed Zuhair Al-Bar, 30, a member of the armed wing of the Popular Resistance Committees, medics said.

<snip>

Another army official told Ma'an Arabic that Israel continues to hold Hamas accountable for the lives of civilians in Gaza, and said Israel would retaliate against projectile fire.

"Israel will not give Hamas the chance to decide when the bombing starts and when it ends."

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=377137