IDF: Protesters caused their own deaths

[oberliner]

Probe of 'Naksa Day' events reveals Syrian protesters ignited minefields, threw firebombs without preparing extinguishers. IDF called three ceasefires to allow Red Cross to evacuate wounded, but protesters used this to gain ground.

The IDF said Monday morning that many of the Syrian protesters who stormed the border fence and Quneitra crossing in honor of 'Naksa Day' were responsible for their own deaths by igniting mine fields on the border.

Meanwhile the army also announced at around 11:30 am that although the border demonstration had ended by late Sunday night, many were gathering once again in an area nearby. No violence was reported.

Military sources said the protesters who ignited minefields Sunday did not bring fire extinguishers with them and thus posed a danger to themselves and others by behaving irresponsibly. Others threw firebombs near Quneitra crossing to the same effect, they said.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4078816,00.html

[still_one]

1. :Stormed the border fence",,, "threw firebombs"? I suspect the Syrian government is edging these

protesters to divert attention away from the protests against the Syrian government

[Recursion]

2. Exactly! Those bullets were minding their own business...

...when the protesters ran smack into them.

Al Awda will not be televised.

[oberliner]

3. What is your evidence that anyone was killed by bullets?

I'd be curious to know your source on that claim.

[Recursion]

4. You mean besides the bodies?

:eyes:

[oberliner]

5. There has been no evidence provided that anyone was killed by bullets

If you have any, please share.

[Recursion]

6. You're right, maybe they all dropped dead from scurvy

This is asinine. 200 people were treated for gunshot wounds. But the 20 who died were struck down by typhus. It's like talking to a Creationist.

[oberliner]

7. Did you not read the OP that you are responding to?

Scurvy and typhus? What the heck are you talking about?

The claim about how the protesters may have died is in the excerpt included in the original post - you don't even have to read the article!

[azurnoir]

8. yeah I read the O{ I've been following this story since early Sunday

and watched the claims of IDF 'develop'

first reports IDF says little but as the day wears on and the death toll reaches 20 Haaretz reports first IDF claim "we fired at their legs" then when that was not going too well IDF starts saying that we do not really know how many because they were still in Syria
then someone must have realized the 'can of worms' that opened
so now we have claims that that did it to themselves by setting off landmines

ah huh ok can hardly wait for the next claim

[oberliner]

9. I assumed you did

I was directing my response to the other poster who wrote about "typhus" and "scurvy" inexplicably.

You are suspicious of the claims on the Israeli side - how about from those on the Syrian side?

[Shaktimaan]

10. Let me get this straight.

A whole bunch of people go wandering down into a minefield.

20 die.

You assume that they were all shot to death. Because......???? I dunno. Are you under the impression that anti-personnel mines give you scurvy? Actually, I see what the issue here is! Do you even know what a mine is? (They don't give you scurvy.) They also had a problem with fire. Do you know what fire is?

F-I-R-E

It's like when something is warm and feels good but then when there's too much of it and it's hot... that's bad.

Oh shit.
Do you even know what "hot" is?

You know what, nevermind. This could take weeks. Yes, they were killed by scurvy. Israel attacked them with bullets that turned into trolls who cast spells on them that gave them vitamin deficiencies but then Israel didn't let them leave to go buy lemons so they all died of scurvy. It's all laid out in this weeks "News for Retarded Children."

[TomClash]

12. Are you denying people were killed?

Or are you making a rather unimportant "bullet" point?

[oberliner]

13. The IDF has claimed that none of the protesters were killed by Israeli fire

They are claiming that the Syrian protesters had been killed when Molotov cocktails which the protesters had been throwing set off an anti-tank minefield.

I am asking if there is any evidence to the contrary.

[TomClash]

14. And what evidence have they presented?

Is it understandable that the word of the IDF may not be sufficient?

Is there evidence that the protesters were killed by mines?

[oberliner]

15. Does that skepticism extend to the Syrian side as well?

I understand that folks are skeptical of claims made by the IDF. I would think, though, that folks would be just as skeptical of claims made by the Syrian government (if not more so), especially in light of recent events.

The Syrian regime has barred most international media from the country and has been less than forthcoming with respect to the details of the internal conflict currently raging on within Syria.

With respect to the incident in Golan, all of the people who were killed have been buried within Syria so only they would be capable of releasing autopsy reports showing the cause of death.

[TomClash]

16. Are you skeptical of the claims made by the IDF?

Do you believe them? If so, why?

Has the IDF allowed reporters near the border? Have they presented evidence of their claims?

Fuck Syria. Answer the questions.

[oberliner]

17. Absolutely

I am skeptical of the government/military line of any country.

I never claimed that I believed the IDF or that they presented any evidence.

I am simply asking if there is any evidence of anyone being killed by Israeli fire.

To me, it seems unclear what actually happened with respect to how many people died and how they were killed.

A recent Ha'aretz article notes the following:

Many, if not most, of the casualties occurred when a brush fire, apparently ignited by Molotov cocktails hurled by the demonstrators, set off antitank mines along the border near Quneitra at about 5 P.M.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-to-un-syria-border-provocation-has-potential-for-serious-escalation-1.366567

[TomClash]

23. And where did they get that information?

"Many, if not most . . . " "apparently" - the reporter sounds skeptical.

[oberliner]

24. Probably from the IDF - hence the skepticism

As I said, I can totally understand being skeptical of the information put out by the Israeli government.

What I do not understand is NOT being skeptical of the information put out by the Syrian government.

[TomClash]

38. They are the same to me

Liars.

[Never Stop Dancin]

11. they signed their own death warrants

[shaayecanaan]

18. IDF reportedly laid new minefields in Golan ahead of Sunday demonstrations...

http://un-truth.com/israel/idf-reportedly-laid-new-minefields-in-golan-ahead-of-sunday-demonstrations

"There were several Israeli media reports published yesterday (in English) and today (in Hebrew) that the IDF has, in recent weeks, laid new minefields in the Golan — as part of the military preparations against continuing demonstrations at the “border”.

According to these reports, new minefields were laid in the weeks between the May 15 Nakba Day demonstrations and the June 5 demonstrations held on Sunday .

On May 15, Israeli officials were surprised by an infiltration of Palestinians and their supporters who managed to cross the lines and enter the Golan town of Majdal Shams. One of these infiltrators even managed to get as far as Yaffa, the birthplace and home town of his parents, where he went for a meal, looked around, and then turned himself in to Israeli police.

The Syrian Golan Heights was occupied by Israel in the June 1967 war — and annexed by Israel in 1980, a move that UN members said was “null and void”.

The well-informed Defense Correspondent for the Jerusalem Post, Yaakov Katz, wrote in an article published last night <06/06/2011 22:01> that “In general, the army was pleased with the way it handled the protests on Sunday … In the weeks before, the IDF prepared extensively, laying down new minefields, digging trenches and installing new barbed-wire fences … At least eight of the dead, IDF sources said on Monday, were killed by mines that exploded after the protesters threw Molotov cocktails in fields near the border, causing their premature detonation”. This was posted here.

Laying new minefields in the Golan raises serious questions — including whether proper notification was made, particularly to the Syrian authorities (also to the UN, which has peacekeeping missions there).

It also raises questions about whether such military measures — normally intended to address grave dangers and prevent invasions — are also intended as the Israeli response to protest demonstrations and civilian infiltration."

[Shaktimaan]

19. I would imagine that...

the Syrians were quite aware of any operations to re-mine the border zone between their states. The two countries are not fighting a guerrilla jungle war against one another. The purpose of a minefield is deterrence, not attrition.

It also raises questions about whether such military measures — normally intended to address grave dangers and prevent invasions — are also intended as the Israeli response to protest demonstrations and civilian infiltration.

I think this is a fair question. I'm not sure of the answer myself. Israel certainly has the right to use such measures along its border. Particularly one shared with Syria. But that doesn't mean there may not have been more appropriate measures to use considering the situation. I have no idea what those measures might be, but if confrontations like this continue then Israel would be well advised to figure something out pretty quickly.

edit: If the UN has peacekeepers stationed along the border then I think they share a good deal of responsibility for this outcome. If they are unable to offer even a modicum of deterrence against unarmed border-crashing then it doesn't seem very fair for the international community to then criticize Israel's too-heavy hand.

[pelsar]

20. the actual border...

is pretty lightly guarded. Syrians army cant get near it without israel noticing the movement, so there is little need for a heavily guarded border. The UN also is only in a few places and also very limited in what they can do, even if they had the mandate.

The new mines were placed in very specific areas, during the light of day. And Quentra where the protesters did their protesting is a closed syrian military area that is in fact heavily mined, given that is one of the "invasion routes" to israel.

a note why the protesters weren't "allowed" to get to the actual fence: Molotov cocktails, are considered weapons and obviously are dangerous. And previous experience with "peaceful Palestinians protestors" too many times in the past were found to use weapons.

lessons learned: just because someone declares they are "peaceful"....doesn't make it so....as the past has shown.

[tootrueleft]

22. Are you a big fan of landmines? Or just when they're guarding ground israel is occupying?

[pelsar]

25. landmines have their uses....

as do machine guns, automatic weapons, tear gas, etc

as far as israel and the golan heights and syria...its just a the obvious lesson, in that there are consequences for ones actions, nothing new or special in that lesson....
though i guess. the surprise for the syrians was that the jews of israel were no longer the classic jew breed that used to roll over when the someone said "boo"

bummer isnt it.

[tootrueleft]

26. Bummer for you the world can see the children of the abused become the abuser and claim victimhood.

And pity for Judaism that you wrap its name around the agression against and dehumanisation of a people given the past suffering of the Jewish people.

Roll on september.

[pelsar]

27. the world?.......same old story

just doesnt like us not taking it " lying down" seems they prefer the more traditional version.

the double standard is so glaring that its blinding.....as the 'world"
is pretty busy bombing civilians in Pakistan, Afganistan, Libya, shooting protestors in Syria, iran, Sudan, iran, invading Bahrain, killing muslims in chechnya etc.

credibility is neither the UN nor the "worlds" strong point when it comes us jews....

[tootrueleft]

30. Awww, poor superpower. Amazing how equating israels actions with jews in genera is only antisemitism

when non-jews do it.

Have to laugh at this rule.......

"Do not use the term "Jew" to mean "Israeli"."

Is that not what you're doing?

[shira]

33. It's pretty obvious when some critics of Israel resort to the most irrational criticism...

http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-sharansky-s05.htm

The first "D" is the test of demonization. When the Jewish state is being demonized; when Israel's actions are blown out of all sensible proportion; when comparisons are made between Israelis and Nazis and between Palestinian refugee camps and Auschwitz - this is anti- Semitism, not legitimate criticism of Israel.

The second "D" is the test of double standards. When criticism of Israel is applied selectively; when Israel is singled out by the United Nations for human rights abuses while the behavior of known and major abusers, such as China, Iran, Cuba, and Syria, is ignored; when Israel's Magen David Adom, alone among the world's ambulance services, is denied admission to the International Red Cross - this is anti-Semitism.

The third "D" is the test of delegitimization: when Israel's fundamental right to exist is denied - alone among all peoples in the world - this too is anti-Semitism.

This one's great too and some of the things listed are easy to detect in this thread...
http://www.talkingsquid.net/archives/1702

This type of irrational criticism is unique WRT the "Jew" of the nations, Israel.

No other nation on the planet is criticized in this way.

And the "poor superpower" is a pretty tiny country surrounded by enemy nations just itching to destroy it. It has little margin for error WRT the safety of its citizens. Sure, it can "win" any war waged against it, but at what cost?

[tootrueleft]

34. Just like they were demonized for using white phosphorous on civilians

Just like they were demonized for shooting a rock throwing child in the head.

Just like they were demonized for preventing childrens shoes from entering gaza for years.

Just like etc etc etc........

You can't demonize people who are already acting like demons.


Poor 800 pound nuckear armed gorilla. Always being demonnized for the atrocities it carries out. Boo hoo hoo.....

[shira]

35. You don't agree with the 2 links in that last post WRT what constitutes antisemitism, right? n/t

[shira]

36. The Red Cross said there was no evidence Israel used WP illegally...

The very same Red Cross that didn't allow Israel (the only nation in the world) into its International force for nearly 8 decades (not that you think that was bigotry).

"You can't demonize people who are already acting like demons."

Which people?

Be specific please.

-------

And where on earth did you read Israel didn't allow children's shoes into Gaza?

Also, whatever happened WRT the soldier who shot the rock throwing child?

[tootrueleft]

40. Israel admitted using it in built up areas. Don't lower yourself by excusing it.

[pelsar]

39. your confused...we're not a 'poor little superpower

on the contrary we're a strong, regional superpower....and we don't like taking shit from our neighbors or their friends.

threaten us and we take it seriously, "double talk, doesnt impress us,


i can use the term jew and israeli in one sentence, just as the arabs and Palestinians do (feel free to )....thats how it is in the region, we all tend to mix up jew/muslim/arab etc and don't really have to worry about pseudo non sensical definitions made for the "pseudo intellect who are afraid of being called racist, since we understand the cultural and religious links.

Dont mistake our explanations of our actions as some kind of plead for sympathy, we're just being nice and indulging you in an explanation of what should be obvious.

.....we really really really dont need the 'worlds approval," the "world" hardly has a moral standing to make such judgements.

[oberliner]

29. The landmines were placed by Syria, not Israel

They are not "guarding ground Israel is occupying" but rather they are left over from the previous conflict.

From a site that monitors land-mines worldwide:

Syria has not acceded to the Mine Ban Treaty. While expressing concern about the plight of landmine victims, Syria considers the antipersonnel mine as a necessary defensive weapon and cites Israel's continued annexation/occupation of the Golan Heights as an important reason for not joining the treaty.

http://www.the-monitor.org/index.php/publications/display?url=lm/2004/syria.html#fnB8695

[shira]

32. If Israel can't be blamed, it doesn't matter who planted the mines. n/t

[shira]

31. Do you have a problem with landmines separating any other enemy nations for deterrence sake? n/t

[tootrueleft]

21. Eh, didn't an IDF official claim on Sunday that they aimed for the protestors legs

to minimise fatalities? Now they didn't shoot at all?

Remember the good ol days when the IDF used to at least put some effort into covering up their atrocities??

[azurnoir]

37. Let's just cal it a 'developing' story

:)

[bemildred]

28. "The Associated Press reported that Syrian police are preventing pro-Palestinian marchers from

approaching the border. The report says police have set up a pair of checkpoints near the border and security forces have been telling people not to cross and sending them away." -- from the OP.