Israel stands condemned

[Scurrilous]

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/FD5171EF-EE4E-40FE-87F0-3BDC94900F06.htm

There has been worldwide condemnation after Israel massacred more than a dozen Palestinians in the city of Rafah on Wednesday.

<snip>


"Irish Foreign Minister Brian Cowen, whose country holds the rotating EU presidency, said Israel's military operation in Rafah showed a "reckless disregard for human life".
"It is clear that today's action was completely disproportionate to any threat faced by the Israeli military," he said."

<snip>


"But EU foreign affairs chief Javier Solana said Israel was failing in its avowed aim of fighting "terrorism".
"The steadily mounting death toll and the continuing destruction of houses in Gaza cannot but disturb all those who want to promote a settlement in the Middle East," he said.

"This is not the way to fight terrorism effectively, nor to prepare for a successful disengagement from Gaza in the conditions defined by the (diplomatic) quartet."

Israel's destruction of homes in the Rafah refugee camp is "unacceptable and wrong", British Prime Minister Tony Blair told parliament on Wednesday.
"We entirely understand the concern of Israel about acts of terrorism but what happened yesterday was unacceptable and wrong," Blair told MPs."

[Jim Sagle]

1. World opinion ain't nuthin' but shit.

[library_max]

5. After Powell resigns, expect Bush's call for Secretary of State.

You'd be a natural.

[el_gato]

7. Yeah Sagle, Palestinians don't have a right to live

and their murders mean nothing

[lefty_mcduff]

8. Of course it is.

And would that be the same world opinion that condemned Bush's fiasco in Iraq?

[Jim Sagle]

13. Sometimes the world gets it right.

[lefty_mcduff]

15. Yep. Like today at the UN.

Even Bush and the boyz decided to sit it out, rather than veto. Sometimes Bush and Co. get it right too....

[Violet_Crumble]

21. Bush and co. didn't get it right...

Getting it right would have been voting for the Resolution rather than abstaining. As it was, the Resolution was watered down a fair bit to try to ensure the US wouldn't veto the Resolution...

The sad thing is that all it would take to get it right would be one phone call from Bush to Sharon telling him to knock it off and waving some reasons to knock it off in his face. All it took for Indonesia to leave East Timor was one phone call from Clinton, after all. It sure as hell wasn't the fear of UN peacekeepers that sent Indonesia packing...

Violet..

[kalian]

29. Wow...you must really admire Bush then....

since that's basically his attitude as well.

How..."progressive"... :eyes:

[drdon326]

2. Brian's a real ass....

With the incident....."reckless disregard for human life".

"Irish Foreign Minister Brian Cowen, whose country holds the rotating EU presidency, said Israel's military operation in Rafah showed a "reckless disregard for human life".
"It is clear that today's action was completely disproportionate to any threat faced by the Israeli military," he said."



But when israelis are killed, nothing more than "doesnt serve
any legitimate cause".

"The killing of children does not serve any legitimate cause and degrades any purpose which it purports to advance," said Irish Foreign Minister Brian Cowen, speaking for the 25-nation bloc."

Brian...drop dead.

[newyorican]

9. Hey Doc!

Got wood?

[drdon326]

10. Hey newyorican...

got another bait and switch ??

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[drdon326]

12. Cute...even after 100 times.

no...I remember the now famous "Jenin Massacre" thread and
I'll wait for more facts.

Now I could do one of those "Pretty damn stupid " posts of yours,
but I dont want to go to there.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Djinn]

18. maybe people would stop bringing it up

if you ever admitted that it was a vile (and I have to say disturbing) thing to say. The amount of people who remember it is in direct correlation with how revolting it was.

[Violet_Crumble]

20. What he said was absolutely true...

Most foreign ministers tend to condemn things in language that doesn't involve foaming at the mouth, ranting and raving, and bragging about getting a chubby over the deaths of other civilians. His statements in both cases, which involved the murder of innocent civilians, were strong ones that everyone should agree with. It kind of reminds me of a few times here when I've been accused of supporting suicide-bombings, even though I've always stated my complete opposition to them. In fact, someone even tried to chide me because they didn't think my condemnation was 'strong enough'. What I suspect the problem boils down to is that there are some people who think that being fair-minded and being stongly opposed to the deaths of any civilians, not just Israelis, translates into either not doing enough condemnation of Israeli deaths, or some little neuron in their brains goes on the fritz and they develop selective blindness and accuse those who do condemn such actions of not condemning them...

Violet...

[shadu]

3. You sound just like Bush!

(Do you quote Bush often?)

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[drdon326]

6. Hmmmm...

Do you mean isreal is the world's "misfortune" ??

edit four for typo.lol

[Gimel]

16. Still waiting

I'm still waiting for the UN condemnation of suicide attacks which have killed at least 673 Israeli civilians.

and of course the US "mistakes" today will go un-condemned.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/19/international/middleeast/19WIRE-STRIKE.html?hp

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

19. Why are you still waiting? Here's some condemnation for you...

I know UN condemnation of suicide bombings has been posted here in the past, but just so I can make sure you don't wait anymore when the condemnation has been very open, here's some condemnation of suicide bombings for you to read...

SECRETARY-GENERAL CONDEMNS SUICIDE BOMBINGS IN ISRAEL; URGES RESTRAINT IN FACE OF PROVOCATION

http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2003/sgsm8819.doc.htm

New York, 19 August 2003 - Statement attributable to the Spokesman for the Secretary-General on the bombing in Jerusalem

The Secretary-General condemns in the strongest possible terms the suicide bombing today by a Palestinian militant group in Jerusalem, which killed 20 Israelis and injured dozens more. He extends his sincere condolences to the families of the victims. Today has been a tragic day for the UN family as well, and we share the grief felt for all victims.

The Secretary-General has made clear repeatedly that terrorist attacks are totally reprehensible. He urges Palestinian Prime Minister Abbas to take decisive action to arrest the instigators of this attack and prevent such attacks from happening again. The Secretary-General calls on the Government of Israel to act with restraint in the face of this provocation, and not contribute to a renewed cycle of violence and revenge. The Secretary-General reaffirms his belief that security for both Israelis and Palestinians can best be achieved by the political process of conflict resolution called for in the Road Map.

http://www.un.org/apps/sg/sgstats.asp?nid=459

Tokyo, Japan, 23 February 2004 - Statement attributable to the Spokesman for the Secretary-General on the suicide bombing in Jerusalem

The Secretary General condemns the suicide bombing Sunday in Jerusalem. The deliberate targeting of civilians is a heinous crime and cannot be justified by any cause. We urge the Palestinian Authority to take the steps necessary to bring to justice those who plan, facilitate and carry out such crimes.

Our thoughts and condolences go out to the families and victims of this crime.

http://www.un.org/apps/sg/sgstats.asp?nid=786

New York, 15 March 2004 - Secretary-General's statement on the bombings in Ashdod

The Secretary-General strongly condemns yesterday's double suicide bombing in the Israeli port of Ashdod, which reportedly killed at least ten and injured 16. He urges the Palestinian Authority to bring to justice those who plan, facilitate or carry out these horrific acts of terrorism and to devote all its efforts to put an end to these crimes. He sends his deepest condolences to the families of the victims.

http://www.un.org/apps/sg/sgstats.asp?nid=817


What was all that, Gimel? Scotch mist?

Violet...

[Forkboy]

22. Once you post this the tune changes

They know the UN condemns this stuff.Now they'll claim it's not enough or "actions speak louder than words" or that the UN is for the "iconically challenged".

[bemildred]

28. You seem to have clairvoyant abilities, Sir. nt

[Gimel]

23. It's Kofe Annan

That isn't a resolution of the General Assembly or the Security Council. I said the UN, not one person on the UN staff.

Can you show me one resolution taken by either body to condemn the continued practice of the Palestinian "social welfare groups" of grooming suicide bombers and sending them into civilian centers to kill as many innocents as possible? To condemn Yasir Arafat for allowing this to happen without tacking any actions to arrest the leaders of the militant groups?

They are strangely silent. Of course, with only one Jewish state, there isn't much of a chance, is there, with about 35 Muslim nations to support the Palestinians.

You'll have to show me something comperable to the resolution passed yesterday condemning Israel.

[drdon326]

24. UN resolution condemning palestinian suicide bombings ?!?!

pul-eeze......

nah....they're too busy bashing Israel.

Funny how Jordan and Saudi Arabia condemn their own terrorists
but seem to have noooo problem with palestinian terrorists.

btw, when's the next Saudi fundraiser for hamas et al ??
The last was such a smashing success.

[Classical_Liberal]

25. The UN has condemned all attacks against civlians

in it's resolution against the extrajudicial killing of Yassin.

Algeria, the only Arab nation on the council, introduced a draft resolution condemning "the most recent extrajudicial execution committed by Israel." It also condemned "all attacks against any civilians as well as all acts of violence and destruction."

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:-TBmcE1JsIMJ:www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0325-08.htm+resolution+%22all+attacks+against+any+civilians%22&hl=en

[Gimel]

26. Why isn't it enough

Here are some links that spell out the discrepancy and treatment of Israel in the UN.

http://christianactionforisrael.org/un/skewers.html

http://www.charitywire.com/charity11/00636.html

http://www.jcpa.org/jl/vp501.htm

[Classical_Liberal]

36. It's enough for me.

Both sides should desist in killing civilians, and Israel should get out of the West Bank.

Just because some wacked out christian zionist makes the claim of bias doesn't mean it's true. In fact it is evidence that it isn't since the christian zionist think the bible is a better guide to current events than newspapers.

[Gimel]

27. A general statement

This is not against suicide attacks specifically. They are not even mentioned. So how could this equal a condemnation of Israel?

[Classical_Liberal]

37. So what if it isn't against suicide attacks specifically

Many suicide attacks are on the IDF. Palestinians do have a right to resist occupation. It is opposed to attacks on civilians. Honesty would any sane person feel better if the Palestinians lobbed bombs on civilians rather than killing themselves in the process? You're being silly.

[Violet_Crumble]

34. Yes, it's the Secretary General of the UN...

not 'one person on the UN staff'. The way you make it sound, you think he carries the weight of someone who cleans the offices or something. He's the fucking Secretary General. The CEO. Get it? If not, read this:

"Equal parts diplomat and advocate, civil servant and CEO, the Secretary-General is a symbol of United Nations ideals and a spokesman for the interests of the world's peoples, in particular the poor and vulnerable among them. The current Secretary-General, and the seventh occupant of the post, is Mr. Kofi A. Annan of Ghana, who took office on 1 January 1997.

The Charter describes the Secretary-General as "chief administrative officer" of the Organization, who shall act in that capacity and perform "such other functions as are entrusted" to him or her by the Security Council, General Assembly, Economic and Social Council and other United Nations organs. The Charter also empowers the Secretary-General to "bring to the attention of the Security Council any matter which in his opinion may threaten the maintenance of international peace and security". These guidelines both define the powers of the office and grant it considerable scope for action. The Secretary-General would fail if he did not take careful account of the concerns of Member States, but he must also uphold the values and moral authority of the United Nations, and speak and act for peace, even at the risk, from time to time, of challenging or disagreeing with those same Member States.

http://www.un.org/News/ossg/sg/pages/sg_office.html

As you clearly haven't bothered to read the Resolutions, I suggest you go and do it and search for statements like:

"Recalling the need to end all acts of violence, including acts of terror, provocation, incitement and destruction,"

"Gravely concerned also about the use of suicide bombing attacks against Israeli civilians resulting in extensive loss of life and injury,"

Then you can either come back and admit you've been waiting in vain for something that's always existed, or maybe indulge in some goal-post shifting and demand to know why the UN hasn't renamed itself 'UN Against Suicide-Bombings' and claim that any condemnation just isn't enough seeing as how they have enough time on their hands to condemn Israels blatant violations of international law and waste their time complaining about human rights abuses against Palestinians and act as though their lives are somehow equally valuable of those of Israelis. Because that's what the issue is, isn't it? If anyone dares to criticise Israel's actions in the Occupied Territories, then selective blindness kicks in and they're accused of not condemning or being opposed to acts of terrorism on Israeli civilians, because the person doing the accusing doesn't want anyone showing concern over the deaths of Palestinians and Israelis. They want all the focus to be on Israelis as though they're the only victims. It's happened very recently in this forum to me, y'know...

Violet...

[Djinn]

30. Even if it were actually TRUE

that the UN "never condemns crimes against Israel - squawk" - which it demonstrably isn't - it's not actually their role to condemn anyone but states - was it their role to condemn Tim McVeigh? is it their role to condemn FARC?

Give the Palestinians an actual country and an army funded to the levels of the IDF - THEN call on them to condemn.

[Gimel]

31. Yeah

But they vote on plenty of resolutions sponsored by Arafat's nephew Al Kidwa (or whatever) to condemn Israel. You would think that giving the PA observer status on the UN might also be enough "status" to allow condemnation of that entity.

[Djinn]

32. which - as noted here AD NASEUM

they have.

[Gimel]

33. There was not one

Ad nausea to you, but as I said Kofe Annan is not the UN, an he cannot pass resolutions. A blanket condemnation of innocent deaths is not a condemnation of suicide attacks on Israeli citizens.


Furthermore, about one third of the resolutions that the GA does pass, are anti-Israel.

[Violet_Crumble]

35. Go and read the Resolutions...

That's complete bullshit that about one third of Resolutions passed are 'anti-Israel'. Also, there has been condemnations of suicide-bombings which I've posted twice in this thread. Why are you continuing to insist that they don't exist?

Violet...

[Gimel]

38. These are not UN resolutions

The statement that you quoted about the position of the Secretary general reads as follows:

The Charter also empowers the Secretary-General to "bring to the attention of the Security Council any matter which in his opinion may threaten the maintenance of international peace and security".

I saw nothing that said he had done so, or that he had demanded that the Security Council pass a resolution to condemn the attacks, which were plaguing Israeli citizens, in the cities, on buses, in homes. for more than 6 weeks, there were on the average of three attacks a day, and more than 100 citizens were killed by them in one month's time. I'm not saying these are the only innocent deaths that have ever occurred in the world. I'm saying that despite this, there has been no action on the part of the Security Council or on the part of the General Assembly to restrict the flow of money into the hands of Arafat and the terrorist organizations that benefited from that money. There was not even one written resolution condemning the attacks. Kofe Annan statements are not resolutions. They may carry some moral weight, but if you look at his words, you see that he is really demanding that Israel not retaliate.


The Secretary-General has made clear repeatedly that terrorist attacks are totally reprehensible. He urges Palestinian Prime Minister Abbas to take decisive action to arrest the instigators of this attack and prevent such attacks from happening again. The Secretary-General calls on the Government of Israel to act with restraint in the face of this provocation, and not contribute to a renewed cycle of violence and revenge. The Secretary-General reaffirms his belief that security for both Israelis and Palestinians can best be achieved by the political process of conflict resolution called for in the Road Map.

While PM Abbas has never arrested a single terrorist responsible, the Israeli PM has acted with restraint.

Please note that all the statements you posted were made in the past year. Where are the statements from Annan from the year 2002 when the major attacks occurred daily? Where is the condemnation of the PA and Arafat's continued refusal to act to arrest terrorists? Annan only spoke up after repeated criticism from Israel about the lack of any condemnation from him.

I gave you a link in my post that verifies the number of resolutions condemning Israel is about one-third of all the resolutions passed in the GA.

[Violet_Crumble]

39. Oh yes they are!

Would you like links this time? These comments are from Resolutions, none of which you have bothered reading...

"Recalling the need to end all acts of violence, including acts of terror, provocation, incitement and destruction,"

"Gravely concerned also about the use of suicide bombing attacks against Israeli civilians resulting in extensive loss of life and injury,"

You claimed the UN had not condemned suicide bombings. You were wrong....

Well, d'uh. I know all the statements from Kofi Annan were from the past year as I didn't hit the link to go to the ones from previous years. You can do it if it bothers you so much...

The Israeli PM acts with restraint??? You have to be joking!

No, Gimel. Posting some link from some ninny site like free republic or other schlock like that is not in any way verification. It's merely posting a link to crap from a moronic site that I wouldn't waste my time with as I prefer credible sources. Have you even been to the UN site and checked out the GA Resolutions? There's no way a third of them are 'anti-Israel'. btw, criticism of Israel isn't anymore 'anti-Israel' than criticism of the US or Australia is anti-American or anti-Australian. An inability to be able to criticise a state isn't healthy at all. All states do wrong, some more than others, and the sooner some people come to grips with that, the better...

Violet...

[Gimel]

40. You're choice

You can believe in hollow statements if you want. I happen to know that Annan did not condemn the attacks earlier. After all, I follow the news daily, especially when there are continuous terror attacks afflicting the country and the area in which I live.

You have not convinced me in the least that Annan's statements are carry the weight of a resolution.

[Violet_Crumble]

41. So yr claim there was no condemnation has now changed...

...to calling those condemnations 'hollow statements'. Forkboy is indeed psychic! ;) You claimed there was no UN condemnation of suicide-bombings. I showed you both what was said in Resolutions, as well as showing you statements from the Secretary General of the UN...

As for this:

I happen to know that Annan did not condemn the attacks earlier.

Sorry, but you happen to be very wrong. Or will claiming this doesn't exist suddenly turn into claiming it's a 'hollow statement' as well?

"U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan is horrified by the suicide bombing that occurred in Tel Aviv late on Friday night. He condemns this indiscriminate terrorist attack in the strongest possible terms. This horrible event underlines the urgency of breaking the cycle of violence."
- UN Secretary-General press release - June 1, 2001

http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/mfaarchive/2000_2009/2001/6/Tel-Aviv%20suicide%20bombing%20at%20the%20Dolphin%20disco%20-%201-


More scotch mist, Gimel?

Violet...

[Gimel]

42. No, thanks

I don't imbibe. Drink up, it's all yours.

I haven't changed my story and I don't continue conversations where the "goal posts" have been turned into crucifixes.

[Violet_Crumble]

43. Gimel, this is what you claimed...

Claim #1 -

'I'm still waiting for the UN condemnation of suicide attacks which have killed at least 673 Israeli civilians.'

I showed you both the text contained in UN Resolutions as well as statements of Kofi Annan that did indeed condemn suicide bombings. Instead of admitting you were mistaken, you then proceed to call these condemnations that you claimed didn't exist 'hollow statements' and then to gallop straight onto claim #2 -

'I happen to know that Annan did not condemn the attacks earlier.' (than last year). That's also known as moving the goal-posts, btw...

I posted you the statement of Kofi Annan condemning a suicide-bombing from 2001. You were mistaken in both claims, and it'd be very wise not to try them again...

btw, don't know why yr going on about booze, cause I wasn't. Asking someone if something is scotch mist is done when someone is saying that something right in front of their face isn't there....

Violet...

[Gimel]

44. FYI

http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=74313


The Arabs had originally drafted a very tough resolution accusing Israel of committing war crimes but watered down the language to win support especially from the Europeans which could have somewhat isolated the United States.

After the suicide attack, Europeans insisted on adding a paragraph to condemn suicide bombings but Arabs refused to modify the resolution leading to abstention by the EU members.

http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=56620

UN commission backs Palestinian "armed struggle"

http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=52754

Annan is "biased": Israel

http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=47267

Yeah, Annan went on record a couple of times as being "appalled". Arafat condemned the attacks more than Annan did, and both were equally as hollow in that there was no follow-through or taking practical steps to stop the attacks, and both condemned Israel for taking necessary actions to arrest terrorists.

I never put up the goal posts. You switched from UN resolutions to insisting that Annan's statements are enough. I don't think so. Look at the record that I've posted above.

I lost considerable respect for Annan as an unbiased mediator after the UN involvement in suppressing a video, evidence on the kidnapped Israeli soldiers, even failing to return personal effects of the soldiers to their parents. His statement, which you brought up, not I, are not suffiecient, came months after the brunt of attacks, and fail to address the issues. They are not UN resolutions, and I've never heard them considered so by anyone other than you.

[Violet_Crumble]

45. Your level of respect has zero to do with it...

You falsely claimed the UN hadn't condemned suicide bombings. They had and a I showed you PROOF that they had. Now you say nothing they say is sufficient. That doesn't negate the fact that yr claim was a false one. To me it seems to have more to do with the fact that people exist who falsely claim others don't condemn attacks like that if they've condemned atrocities carried out by the IDF...

For fucks sake, Gimel. I copied and pasted the text in UN resolutions condemning suicide bombings. Are you still claiming they don't exist???

Violet...

[Gimel]

46. As I said

my statement referred the the UN bodies of the GA or the Security Council, not Kofe Annan. Your interpretation has nothing to do with my statement.

It's rather boring to continue with a false understanding. Please refrain from accusing me of taking Scotch. Your remarks are not as benign as you would try to make them.

[Violet_Crumble]

50. This is where I jump off...

There's only so many different ways I can show someone something that they claim doesn't exist before their continued denial of it makes me start to wonder casually to myself if they've got some deep level of emotional investment in completely ignoring facts. I used to see it happen with the more vitriolic anti-choicers on another board I used to post on...

So to save myself time, here's a link to my previous post. This time, read it and digest it....

------------------------------------------------

Claim #1 -

'I'm still waiting for the UN condemnation of suicide attacks which have killed at least 673 Israeli civilians.'

I showed you both the text contained in UN Resolutions as well as statements of Kofi Annan that did indeed condemn suicide bombings. Instead of admitting you were mistaken, you then proceed to call these condemnations that you claimed didn't exist 'hollow statements' and then to gallop straight onto claim #2 -

'I happen to know that Annan did not condemn the attacks earlier.' (than last year). That's also known as moving the goal-posts, btw...

I posted you the statement of Kofi Annan condemning a suicide-bombing from 2001. You were mistaken in both claims, and it'd be very wise not to try them again...

btw, don't know why yr going on about booze, cause I wasn't. Asking someone if something is scotch mist is done when someone is saying that something right in front of their face isn't there....


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x69516#70058


Violet...

[Forkboy]

47. You two are killing me

:D

[Gimel]

48. funny

you're not dead.

[Forkboy]

49. Thanks Larry Literal

:silly:

[Violet_Crumble]

51. I only played a small part...

I'm the one who merely gets a minor mention in the credits. Gimel's the big star of this production, and to be honest I couldn't have done it without her!! Let's all raise our glasses of Scotch in a toast to Gimel :toast:

Violet...

[newyorican]

52. It is kinda funny...

in an squirmy, shifty sort of way...