Just surfed some other media outlets. Read what is really going on in ME

[keithyboy]

as our attention is focused on Iraq...the Israeli genocide of Palestinians continues without so much as a shaking of heads.

http://www.palestinechronicle.com/

[Jim Sagle]

1. The false and malicious lie of "genocide" has been debunked on this

forum many times over. Why do you persist in resurrecting this truthless and contemptible blood libel?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

4. "Debunked"?? Really? By whom?

[Jim Sagle]

6. By me. Several times. Once more with feeling: Palestinian population is

growing, not falling. Therefore, no genocide.

End of discussion.

[Aidoneus]

9. Remember, also, that I thoroughly debunked your "debunking"

for instance, 90% of the Palestinian population living outside of 80% of their homeland, 50% of the people existing completely outside of 100% of it.. Yeah, thoroughly debunked. :eyes:

[Jim Sagle]

16. Genocide means killing, nothing else. So I'm right, you're wrong, and

that's the end of it.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Magistrate]

41. Mr. Sagle Is Correct, Sir

Use of the word genocide to describe current events in the Levant is a grotesque exaggeration, comparable to proclaiming a paper-cut on the forefinger is a life-threatening wound. To do so does nothing but reveal the propagandistic intention of the persons who resort to the usage, the basic frivolity of their views and understanding of serious matters, and into the bargain, cheapens the language available to us all.

Genocide means nothing if it does not mean the killing of a great proportion a people, indiscriminately, in a concerted action aimed specifically at that doing. During the current course of hostilities west of the Jordan, roughly a thousand Arab Palestinians have been killed each year by Israeli military action. A little over half of those Arab Palestinians killed are armed combatants by any reasonable definition. It is, therefore, impossible to sustain either the charge that the killing constitutes killing of a great proportion of the Arab Palestinian people, or that the killing is indicriminate. The yearly death of less than a quarter of one percent of a people can hardly be decribed as a great proportion of them, and by the admittedly checkered standards of modern war-fare, a ratio of roughly six combatants to five non-combatants can hardly be decribed as indiscriminate. Although the number of Israelis killed each year in the recent hostilities is noteably smaller, on the order of three hundreds, less than a quarter of these are armed combatants, and so a charge of indiscriminate killing, at least, could be much more readily sustained against the various armed bodies of Arab Palestinians.

The word genocide is properly used to describe such events as the episode of slaughter recently in Rwanda, or the currents actions of the Sudanese government in its southern marches. Comparison of the trivialities currently taking place in the Levant to these ghastly deeds is, put bluntly, offensive in the extreme. It cheapens death and horror and suffering themselves, and subtracts from the awe in which the face of evil ought to be regarded by we who are all capable of extremities ourselves....

[newyorican]

42. re: Genocide

Article 6
Genocide
For the purpose of this Statute, "genocide" means any of the following
acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national,
ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated
to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

http://www.iccnow.org/romearchive/romestatute/rome-e.pdf

[The Magistrate]

43. Understood, Sir

But not in the least demonstrated in this matter. First, you have no proof whatever of intent to destroy in whole or in part any group, nor does any such intent emerge from consideration of current events, without grotesque exaggeration being employed. The "in whole or in part" language seems rather expansive, but you will find no tribunal ever will be willing to interpert it as satisfied by the miniscule proportions of casualties occuring during this current phase of the war between the peoples of Israel and Arab Palestine. A person of impish spirit might be willing to claim it applies to even a single killing, as a single person is surely a part of the whole people, but no judge ever will.

If you want to see the concept in actiuon, look into the proceedings of the tribunals currently concerned with Yugoslavia and Rwanda; the former, certainly, is readily available.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[newyorican]

47. This is rediculous...

and silly. It's not easy being both, you know. Takes a lot of work.

[IA_Seth]

45. My opinion

I am right and you're wrong? I won't even comment.

Anyway, is it really the definition of Genocide here that we should be concerned with, or is it the purposeful destruction of a culture?
Sure, populations may rise, population may even fall without genocide being present.

It is when one nation (regardless of ethnicity, wealth, etc.) makes it practice to limit civil rights (ie. marriage rights, voting rights, etc.); relocate (as evidenced recently with the destruction of Palestinian homes); and further ruin the quality of life of a spefific culture that I begin to have a problem.

Maybe it isn't Genocide, but it is surely Culturocide.

And no Jim, that won't be in your dictionary.

[not systems]

10. So if Palestinians are killed at a rate less than the birth rate...

it is plain-O-Jim dandy with you.

No matter how reduced the well being of this population is
no matter how many lose homes and farms to bulldozers as long
as you and yours are safe no one should care?

[Jim Sagle]

17. It's not OK, it's just not genocide. For further reference, consult any

good dictionary.

[not systems]

22. Does "Ethnic Cleansing" have a better ring to it?

What about "Relocation" or any other of the
words that describe atrocities that fall short
of killing at the rate needed for the word genocide
to be used.

How about oppressed, occupied and denied human rights
well being killed a high rate.

[Jim Sagle]

23. And how about those homicide bombings?

[not systems]

24. Agreed.

I have never defended it or disputed that term.

Resistance to occupation is a right killing civilians is not.

I also think "strategic" bombing of civilian population like in
Dresden and Nagasaki was wrong.

If you support "strategic" bombing of civilians as a tactic
then you should also support "homicide" bombing.

I support neither.

You?

[Jim Sagle]

26. I'm not about to revise my opinions on how WWII was fought.

We won, they lost, and the world is therefore a better place than it would have been otherwise.

[not systems]

27. Neither city were military targets...

so killing civilians with bombs is is OK with you, I guess.

Of course the world is a better place but if the
ends justify the means where do you draw the line?

Why deny others their "better" world, one without
bulldozers, missle strikes, and "rubber" bullets in
their own land.

[Jim Sagle]

29. If you want to engage in WWII revisionism and cast imperial Japan and

Nazi Germany as the victims of American aggression, knock yourself out. Such a discussion isn't worth one damn second of my time.

[not systems]

30. I'm doing no such thing...

and you know it.

I'm pointing out that the morality of "strategic" bombing
and "homicide" bombing is clear both are terror intended to
kill civilians and effect political demoralization on the target.

You defend one and decry the other.

Fine.

It is because you agree with the intended political effect
in one case and disagree in the other.

Fine.

It is not really much high ground to stand on in my opinion.

[Jim Sagle]

33. Off-topic.

[Elidor]

15. Oh, Jim, thank goodness we have you to make up our minds for us!

I just love how you reduce that whole complicated situation into simple, easy-to-digest factoids with no intellectual digestion required.

End of discussion, my ass.

[Jim Sagle]

18. Just trying to help out.

[Swamp Rat]

31. How are you trying to "help out"?

Sorry I'm new to DU, but please tell us how are you trying to help out here?

[Jim Sagle]

39. By providing a dissenting view.

[sendero]

8. If what is happening to the palestinians..

... were happening to Isrealis, they'd call it genocide.

End of fucking story.

[Jim Sagle]

19. No they wouldn't.

[Violet_Crumble]

36. They do, and for even less....

I've seen people refer to any future dismantling of settlements as being genocide, and suicide-bombings as being genocide....

Violet...

[Nlighten1]

14. Sorry but you are wrong...

It is "slow burn" genocide that is going on in Israel. No one here has "debunked" it.

[Jim Sagle]

20. If the population is rising, it's not genocide. Period!

[Must_B_Free]

25. Snide, sarcastic remark

that noone's even sure whether to take seriously, here.

[Gyre]

50. You all miss the point.

An act or acts don't need to amount to "genocide" to constitute an atrocity.

What's happening in the Occupied Territories today is a continuous atrocity, perpetuated by: Sharon, the Israeli Defense Forces, and the bush administration that aids and abets their crimes against humanity in Palestine. It is also a state-sponsored effort to ethnically-cleanse the OT of Palestinians.

"Ethnic Cleansing" has a particularly distasteful ring to it in our culture if you ask me.

Gyre

[rockymountaindem]

2. Been there, done that, not credible.

[merh]

3. That first article is one scary article. (n/t)

[Tinoire]

5. Yep. Lots going on there with not one iota of it 'debunked'

Today British politicians were being shot at by the IDF during a UN-supervised fact-finding mission but never mind any of that- everything is peachy-keen for the Palestinians.

There's plenty of head-shaking going on.

Your post will be moved to IP soon. If you don't want to see it locked, you need to post a few paragraphs from whichever of those articles you want to bring attention to.

It's an ugly, ugly situation down there.

[Jim Sagle]

7. Yes it was debunked, and everybody goddamn well knows it.

Refer to my previous post for "details."

[NJmaverick]

11. I for one do not feel the story has been debunked

I see that the killings are still going on. It is simply not reported by the US media.

[Gimel]

34. Did they report

about the Thai worker who was killed while working near a greenhouse of the Kfar Darom settlement in the Gaza Strip?

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/441498.html

Or of the 250 workers entering Israel from Gaza through Erez for two days now?

Actually, this thread will be closed at it does not have the title of an article as it's subject line and there is no single article posted.

[seemslikeadream]

13. Tinoire did you hear what Hersch said about Israel?

On with Wolfie this morning he said that Israel is on the ground in Iraq, intelligence not military.( about nukes in Iran). 6 months ago Cheney was told by Israel that political win impossible and that he should change course. New article by Sy coming out in the New Yorker soon.

[Gimel]

35. Lots of tension

No genocide, however. Nothing even remotely close to it.

The Gaza Rafah camp was searched for tunnels. That's about the size of it. The explosion which accidentally sent a fragment into the area was not aimed at the protesters.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

12. knick-knacks

Ooo! I can *finally* get my intifada lapel pin.

http://snarf.buyitsellit.com/StoreFront/viewProduct.jsp?store=1585&id=7538

[number6]

21. ethnic N religious cleansing- not genocide

but bad no less ....

[RBHam]

28. Our God is better than theirs......

David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister):

"If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?" Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.

[moondust]

32. Wrong forum.

I think this stuff goes here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=124

[undergroundrailroad]

37. NOTE: I/P Violation, however,

I will allow this to stand.

In the future, please post per I/P guidelines.

New threads must be based on a recently-published news item or op-ed piece. They may not be based on editorial cartoons or photographs. Citations and references should include a link to the original source. Exceptions will be allowed if, based on prior approval, the moderators feel a thread is appropriate.

Thank you.



Undergroundrailroad
DU Moderator
FA/NS Affairs

[Djinn]

49. this making it impossible to discuss certain aspects of the I/P conflict

unless it comes from a recent article from a credible source (although I have to say jewishworldreview and Frontpagemag don't quite cut it for me as credible but that's subjective I guess) then it can NOT be discussed anywhere on DU - anything even remotely touching on this anywhere gets shunted down here faster than you can say "stop calling me an anti-semite"

[Classical_Liberal]

38. At this point ethnic cleansing would be the more appropriate term

though the likelyhood that the planned transfer/ and or seige of the walled in Palestinian homelands, will turn into genocide is pretty high. They have basically walled them in and can cut off food, water and other important supplies whenever they want. They have also made peaceful protest of the situation impossible by shooting at protesters claiming the terrorists are intermingling with them. There are no civil rights what so ever in the prisons that have been created.

[bpilgrim]

44. what do we call what we did to the indians?

same thing, cept... they/we have resurected the APACHE and envoke their spirit as it rains down HELLFIRE on theirs and our enemies.

all-over. forever, and, ever. amen!

:nuke:

peace

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kung fu jew]

52. Americans are shit

for letting Iraq (and a lot of really other serious shit) happen, by your logic at least. You'll note a rather large peace movement in Israel if you take the time to look.

[kung fu jew]

51. Unbelievable...

Palestine chronicle = Daniel Pipes for Palestine.
Please don't call websites like that "media outlets." The New York Times is a media outlet, this is not.
Genocide is what is happening right now in Darfur, and I don't see a lot of panties getting in a bundle screaming "arab genocide" and "divest from Sudan." Israel will build its wall, Palestine will be cut off like a cancerous growth and then the we shall see where both sides will want to take it from there. Until then, as long as the rockets fly out of Gaza and the suicide bombers infiltrate from the West Bank, expect the tanks to roll onward.

[Lithos]

53. Locking

The resurrection of this thread is not appropriate to the topic at hand.

L-