The ISM Summer Volunteer Program : The "International Solidarity Movement"

[Gimel]

First Hand Reportage:
From Northern California and From Jerusalem

by David Bedein and Lee Kaplan

Being a neutral observer in a war zone is a difficult one. But when these observers are actually partisans masquerading as objective "monitors" of the treatment of civilians, then the images of the conflict broadcast to the world can be skewed beyond recognition.

Such is the case with the International Solidarity Movement, the ISM, which this week launches its third summer in a row in which it dispatches its members to demonstrate against Israel.

This week, as final deliberations take place in the International Court of Justice in the Hague concerning Israel's construction of a security fence, PLO leader Yassir Arafat met with the ISM and other protest groups to urge them to mount vocal protests against the security fence.

The ISM is often referred to in the media as a "peace movement." Its spokespersons are assumed to provide objective daily updates for foreign consuls and the foreign press based in the Middle East. For this, the group has been nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize.



Inside the ISM Movement

[el_gato]

1. Poor old murderous isreali butchers can't get a break

Can't they just commit genocide of the palestinians without those pesky do-gooders watchin' all the time.

[Gimel]

2. Read the article

It's excellent first hand reporting!!

[Djinn]

6. Coming from Dafka members

it's hardly objective itself (and it's pretty BAD journalism from a "reporting" standpoint but that's just the opinion of an ex-journo)

Dafka purport to work against the "pro Arab" PR in the US and specifically to negate the money "flowing" to US college campuses from pro-Arab groups - mmm pot kettle and black come to mind.

Why are all these continous postings from right wing writers and think tanks not considered the propaganda that they are, Dafka are a joke.

[Gimel]

10. David Bedein

this reporter is in Israel. Wouldn't call him "right wing".

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

13. Right-wing vegatables...

That's what I'd call them, safe in the knowledge that I'm 110% correct and anyone who claims otherwise could hopefully get some use out of a PolSci 101 For Dummies course....

Violet...

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

19. I dont mind this stuiff being posted

what bothers me is that people who embrace this thinking are allowed to stay.It's one thing to post it and disagree,but time and time again certain posters do NOTHING BUT post right wing talking points.

In any other forum they'd get banned....which is why we never see them elsewhere on DU...even they know it.

[bigbillhaywood]

35. But we have to have "balance" in this forum, that's why the

DU information commissars allow Israeli partisans to provide links to right-wing sites and write posts that agree with those sites. The whole reason this forum exists is to effectively silence criticism of Israel before the general DU audience while maintaing the facade of "balanced discussion" of the issues. "Fair and Balanced", folks.

"What gets posted in the I/P Dungeon stays in the I/P Dungeon."
--The I/P Dungeon Visitors Bureau

[Gimel]

84. Points

* that the only reason there is any pro-Arab feeling in the west is because of the great Arab propaganda machine (he's never heard of AIPAC I guess)
## Do you claim that AIPAC is pro-Arab, or that there can't be any pro-Israel organization? What does AIPAC in fact have to do with Arab propaganda?
*that the UN is part of the propaganda
## The UN's General Assembly has been dominated by pro-Arab resolutions and the Arab block has used that forum for harming Israel's interests and survival. Why does pro-Arab have to be Anti-Israel? That's a very good question, I wish they'd take up the issue.

*that believes the IDF is a credible "news" source
## As valid as any other party to the conflict. Therefore important if not "purely objective"

*that no journo/editor/commentator could have a pro Palestinian viewpoint unless they've fallen for propaganda and are ill informed of the real issues
## That anyone pro-Israel is right-wing and anti-human rights is the viewpoint of the pro-Palestinians. Any lie is acceptable as long as it slants against Israel.

The rest of your comments relating to FrontPageMag.com are irrelevant because I didn't post that site. I don't know who the "he" you are referring to is. "The online rag he writes for" but the article is written to open up the ISM to public view, and thus stands on it's own.

[Djinn]

105. you've taken some strange inferences from my post

"* that the only reason there is any pro-Arab feeling in the west is because of the great Arab propaganda machine (he's never heard of AIPAC I guess)
## Do you claim that AIPAC is pro-Arab, or that there can't be any pro-Israel organization? What does AIPAC in fact have to do with Arab propaganda? "

Ah no - I was making the point that there's PLENTY of pro-Israel "propaganda" to counteract any pro-Palestinian "propaganda" - thought that was pretty obvious.

I can't really respond to the rest because it's now been deleted I have no idea why as it dealt solely with the author of the piece and frontpagemag.com who are presumably NOT posters at DU. There is a HUGE amount of evidence that these two writers are right wing and the mag this article was posted on certainly and unashamedly is - regardless of whether YOU posted that site or not that's who commissioned the piece, the article - like any article - does NOT stand on it's own.

[Fight_n_back]

58. Could you please

back up your assertions of genocide?

I have to wonder about your committment to progressive ideals if you are willing to allow this genocide to take place and do nothing more than type on a message board.

If it is truly as bad as you say then why aren't you forming a Lincoln Brigade and joining the struggle? Could it be that your hyperbole outstrips your outrage?

http://www.english.upenn.edu/~afilreis/88/abe-brigade.html
"The Lincolns fought alongside approximately 35,000 anti-fascists from fifty-two countries who, like themselves, were organized under the aegis of the Comintern, and who also sought to "make Madrid the tomb of fascism." In keeping with Popular Front culture, the Americans named their units the Abraham Lincoln Battalion, the George Washington Battalion, and the John Brown Battery. Together with the British, Irish, Canadian, and other nationals they formed the Fifteenth In- ternational Brigade. ("Lincoln Brigade" is a misnomer originating with an American support organization, Friends of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade.) One hundred twenty-five American men and women also served with the American Medical Bureau as nurses, doctors, technicians, and ambulance drivers."

[tinnypriv]

3. Actually, the ISM doesn't even claim to be objective

They make it clear that they are a Palestinian Solidarity Movement - which is why they don't ride round on Israeli buses as a deterrent to suicide bombers.

That's the first sentence knocked out of the stadium. The rest is mostly tedious nonsense masquerading as an "investigative" piece (originating from FrontPage.com, incidentally).

Regardless, I personally would take this sort of thing as a sign of success - if you're not having any effect, the 'pro-Israel' shills just ignore you. When you are, they vilify you, as in this case.

[bemildred]

12. Yeah, if you claimed to be objective you would name yourself

something like "Committee for Accuracy in Middle East
Reporting in America" (CAMERA). "Solidarity" is inherently
not "objective".

[Violet_Crumble]

14. Of course they don't...

But then again, the same folk who try to tell everyone that the ISM is supposed to be objective will wail at the top of their lungs that Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch aren't, which is utter bullshit...

The article had an incredibly high quota of nonsensical garble in it...

I agree that all the attention is a sign of ISM's success, but to be really effective and successful, instead of hundreds going to the Occupied Territories, there needs to be thousands. But all things like this start off slow and pick up momentum, and sometimes it takes years to be truly successful...

Violet...

[Gimel]

15. PSM

Since you have changed the name to Palestinian Solidarity Movement, which would be more fitting, but not the way they try to sell their movement.

Being a neutral observer in a war zone is a difficult one. But when these observers are actually partisans masquerading as objective "monitors" of the treatment of civilians, then the images of the conflict broadcast to the world can be skewed beyond recognition.

The first sentence is undeniably a statement of fact. The second sentence accuses the ISM of being partisans masquerading as objective "monitors". Indeed, they do not "observe" the conflict, but participate in active resistance against IDF operations to apprehend terrorists by obscuring the interests of peace. They actually prolong the conflict and this suits Arafat fine. In the interests of peace, they would help identify the terrorists, instruct the civilians not involved in violence to desist in rock-throwing and violent protests, to calm the situation and eject the terrorists from their midst.

The current case of ISM member Robinson-Peter brings this contradiction to a point:

She arrived two weeks ago for a 14-day visit with the intention of filming a video about a 79-year-old Holocaust survivor traveling the country and the territories, and to take part in demonstrations against the separation fence.
....


Robinson-Peter, who does work for the Museum of Modern Art in New York and Simon & Schuster, the publishing house, refused to comply with the authorities' refusal to allow her into the country, arguing that she had spent two weeks in Israel two years ago without any conditions. When she refused to leave, she was placed under arrest.

....


She was denied entry to Israel on two grounds, says the report on her being questioned at the airport: "Her guaranteed participation in hostile sabotage activity," and belonging to "a leftist organization."

....


"My client," said Leibowitz, "refuses to allow the state to impugn her with the stigma of being a terrorist who is involved in hostile terrorist activity, and she is disgusted by the way her activities on behalf of human rights are regarded as a so-called danger to the security of the state. She is fighting to prove that there is nothing wrong with her activities."

[tinnypriv]

17. Ben-Gurion's airport

Has such appallingly idiodic and racist security personnel that it is a running joke in Israel among those who care about human rights. Try reading Avi Lavie's report in Ha'aretz - 'Telling Left from Right'.

[Gimel]

21. The Airport

Ben Gurion International is the airport's name. It doesn't belong to Ben Gurion. I never have any trouble there. Many people in Israel care about human rights, and they don't have to be ISM members.

[tinnypriv]

23. Try knowing an Arab

And then see how long it takes before you're thrown in one of their dungeons.

For the record, I should state that I never had any trouble the time I was there, but that was before the Intifada broke out.

The point about 'knowing an Arab' is a paraphrase of Avi's article in Ha'aretz by the way.

[Gimel]

24. the question

was never asked. "Do you know an Arab?" That isn't essential, going in or out of the country. Purpose for being in the country, where are you staying, etc might be asked of tourists. Only for El Al passengers has the questioning been more serious. Although one piece of my luggage (my only piece) was delayed in Canada this year. They might have wanted to search it. That wasn't El AL, but Air Canada. Since 9/11 all airlines follow El Al type interrogation. Do you know an Arab? Might be asked in the US more than Israel.

[bigbillhaywood]

41. Better yet, try being one.

But I feel it's wasted breath. The Israeli partisans have absolutely no empathy for anti-Arab or anti-Palestinian racism or oppression. The day will come when the oppressed of the world-- Arabs, Blacks, countless other oppressed groups, and the entire working class-- will sit in judgement over their former oppressors. I may not live to see that day, but I hope those in judgement show their former oppressors the same measure of mercy shown to them-- none.

[Djinn]

48. LOL!

most middle class white folks have no problems with US cop's, few rich male Muslims get much grief from the Muttawah in Saudi and you get little grief from security at an Israeli airport.

In more amazing news, lions in Africa state they have no fear of Impala and a crocodile asserts that guppies present no problem.

[Violet_Crumble]

63. Yeah...

I've never had to worry about myself or a member of my family becoming a death in custody statistic, and I've never been refused a drink in a pub because of the colour of my skin. So therefore, everything's peachy, and those things never happen!! ;)

Violet...

[Gimel]

65. Flying before and after 9/11

The airlines provide the security not the airport as far as flying. To be allowed past immigration is another question.

Documentation or answers to questions that seem incomplete. My parents were questioned by El Al (before 9/11). Their reasons for visiting, their plans for accommodation were all questioned. And yes, they called me from NY to ask if I was expecting them.

On edit: ISM has Jewish partisans, which might help them pretend they are just visiting, but they are questioned all the same.

[Gimel]

100. Try being a woman

in an Islamic state. Problems with cops in the US is another issue, but there is no guarantee that white kids can get by with murder.

[IA_Seth]

4. ISM

Are the ideas of pro-palestinian and pro-peace so diametrically opposed? Is it just Israel that can have supporters making a fuss?

I guess I know the answers that will probably come from this section of the DU.

I do not think there is anything wrong with people protesting and voicing their opinions (whether for or against Israel), and to say otherwise (in my opinion) would only show that Israel doesn't hold itself to the highest standards of democracy.

[Classical_Liberal]

5. ISM isn't objective or neutral and doesn't claim to be

They support peace, and have a political position. This article is complete garbage.

[bigbillhaywood]

7. They are terrorists. Report them to John Ashcroft. n/t

[newyorican]

8. Bwah ha!

whew!

[number6]

9. ISM ..RAWWWWWWWWWKSSSSSSSS!!!!!!

:headbang::headbang::headbang:

[Forkboy]

20. heh

:thumbsup:

[drdon326]

22. ISM...a bunch of terror supporting thugs.

They use duplicity and double-speak to hide the fact that
theyre a bunch of terrorist supporters and enablers.

the veil of their deceit is lifted.

Hopefully Israel will arrest these terrorist supporters.

Notice just as the leaders of hamas sends others, these
ISM punks send others to do their dirty work.

[Forkboy]

25. So people keep saying

when asked for evidence though they disappear or offer up right wing crap to "refute" it. :eyes:

[Djinn]

49. evidence

what about that evil terrorist who damaged the brave and honest IDF's bulldozer by willfully and terroristically lying in front of it!

Peaceful protest my bum - she was clearly attempting to kill innocent Israeli's after all the dozer could have toppled and killed teh brave soldier! (heavy sarcasm off)

[idontwantaname]

26. your argument needs FACTS and PROOF.

not conservative nationalistic propaganda hate speech.

[bigbillhaywood]

27. Well, I suppose arresting them is preferable to murdering them.

For the record, Israel often does arrest ISM activists. I'd like to hear more about their "thuggery". If you really do think they are terrorist supporters, maybe you should send an e-mail to the FBI to have their US operations raided, shut down, and have their leaders arrested (that is if you haven't done so already).

You probably think I'm a "terrorist" supporter too. You can tell them about me while you're at it. Oops...already been done. Had the Feds come visit me already. My crime? Going to a peaceful pro-Palestinian demonstration. Oh yes, I am also guilty of being an Arab-American. Welcome to the police state, ladies and gentlemen. I'm sure there are more than a handful of people on DU willing to be agents for the Ashcroft Gestapo and dime us out on the basis of nothing but a disagreement in politics. And if you can find those people at DU, imagine how many more are out there in the real world. See you in the detention camps.

[drdon326]

30. I suppose you did read the article.....hopefully.

"Writing in the Jerusalem Post on August 6, 2003, one of the ISM founders, Huwaida Arraf, wrote that "Palestinians have the right to resist occupation via "legitimate armed struggle," peaceful actions, or a combination of the two".

ISM spokesman Raphael Cohen was asked how his group defines the "occupation." His definition? "The Zionist presence in Palestine" - that is, all of the country including Israel within its pre-1967 borders.

Cohen went on to say that the ISM view of peace would be a "one-state solution," which means no Israel at all. ISM spokesperson Huwaida Araf confirmed that ISM supports the Palestinian "right of return," which is tantamount to calling for the end of the Jewish state.

ISM claims that it uses nonviolent means in support of that struggle. But as in any paramilitary operation, there are combat units and support units. In the ongoing fighting between Palestinian terrorists and Israel's army, the ISM chooses to play the role of a support unit for the Palestinians.

While it invokes the memory of Martin Luther King Jr. and Mahatma Ghandi in its approach, the ISM rejects the nonviolent vision of both men by working in alliance with those who choose to kill people in order to advance their goals. By definition, a movement that endorses the "armed struggle" of a terrorist organization should itself be considered a terrorist organization.

The group freely admits to:

Spotting and reporting IDF troops in military operations and reporting their whereabouts to armed Palestinian units. Since ISM members are not Arabs and unarmed, they can provide reports on troop movements to terrorists that take refuge in population centers.

Intervening with IDF troops at checkpoints in order to facilitate movement of Palestinians between cities. Who knows how many terrorists have been able to infiltrate into Israel with the help of this group?

Preventing Israel from monitoring and closing off the tunnels that Palestinian terror groups have dug along the border with Egypt. When Rachel Corrie was killed, she was trying to block an IDF tractor that was carving a path in the direction of these underground tunnels. She was not shielding a house."

.....................................................................

like I said, terror enabling/supporting scum.

[bigbillhaywood]

32. "legitimate armed struggle"

"By definition, a movement that endorses the "armed struggle" of a terrorist organization should itself be considered a terrorist organization."

Care to take a guess at why ISM used the term "legitimate" as a modifier to "armed struggle"? Maybe because it views armed struggle against police, military forces, government officials, and armed settlers as "legitimate" and attacks against civilians as illegitimate.

Under international law, a people under military occupation have the right to engage in armed resistance to the occupiers. In recent years, many Palestinian organizations (such as the PFLP, DFLP and Tanzim) have made a clear distinction between legitimate targets (state leaders and armed adjuncts to the state) and illegitimate targets (unarmed civilians). Unfortunately, groups such as Al Aqsa, Hamas, and Islamic Jihad make no such distinction, which allows people like yourself to label all armed Palestinian groups as "terrorists".

The ISM may relay Israeli military positions to certain armed groups, but always in the context of Israeli military incursions into Palestinian areas. In this context, Palestinian armed self-defense would certainly be viewed as legitimate. This hardly makes ISM "terrorist supporters".

[drdon326]

37. Pul-eeze.....

"Care to take a guess at why ISM used the term "legitimate" as a modifier to "armed struggle"? Maybe because it views armed struggle against police, military forces, government officials, and armed settlers as "legitimate" and attacks against civilians as illegitimate."

and to the pathetic ISM, "legitimate armed struggle" also includes
busses, pizzerias and pregnant women riding in a car with 4 kids.

[newyorican]

38. got a link?

some proof, eh?

"and to the pathetic ISM, "legitimate armed struggle" also includes
busses, pizzerias and pregnant women riding in a car with 4 kids."

Hopefully the proof is not a raving nutty rant from LGF...

[bigbillhaywood]

39. Uhhh...

"and to the pathetic ISM, "legitimate armed struggle" also includes
busses, pizzerias and pregnant women riding in a car with 4 kids."

Proof please, and try to avoid using right-wing sources.

[drdon326]

51. International Solidarity Movement: Support for Terrorism

http://home.comcast.net/~jat.action/ISM_essay.htm

Israel Must Be Destroyed by "any means necessary"
(Return to Top)

Less obscure but equally violent is the ISM support for the complete destruction of Israel. Yitzhak Santis, Middle East Affairs Director at the San Francisco based Jewish Community Relations Council, attended the founding First National Conference of the Palestinian Solidarity Movement at the University of California, Berkeley, in 2001. This is his report.

Judging by comments made during debates over the conference's final statement, I can say with confidence that the participants were not seeking peace with Israel, but rather "peace" without any Israel. The leader of the Berkeley Students for Justice in Palestine -- the event's principal organizing group -- rose and declared his opposition to any negotiations with Israel and to a two-state solution.

The conference drew up a final statement that said participants: "declare our solidarity with the popular Palestinian resistance to Israeli occupation, colonization, and apartheid, just as we unequivocally support the right of all people, wherever they may be, to resist oppression. Popular resistance is a legitimate strategy...As a solidarity movement, it is not our place to dictate the strategies or tactics adopted by the Palestinian people in their struggle for liberation."

The resolution ignores the hundreds of innocent Israelis murdered by suicide terrorists acting in the name of this "popular resistance." It makes no distinction whatsoever between civilians or soldiers. All, apparently, are "legitimate" targets of this "popular resistance" whose "strategies" and "tactics" the resolution implicitly endorses by failing to oppose suicide-terrorist massacres against Israeli civilians.

....................................................................

read the entire thing.

[bigbillhaywood]

54. Three things, drdon:

1. Nothing in this clearly non-partisan "article" proves your assertion that: "and to the pathetic ISM, "legitimate armed struggle" also includes busses, pizzerias and pregnant women riding in a car with 4 kids."


2. I did read the whole thing, yoou must have missed this part: "In a recent interview, ISM cofounder Adam Shapiro 'justifie(d) the Palestinian armed resistance against Israel as long as it is targeting Israeli soldiers and Jewish settlers in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Otherwise, he is not in favor of suicide bombings.'"

3. I specifically requested evidence from a NON-RIGHT WING source. Your source has links to the following Right Wing sites: National Review, Weekly Standard, Christian Coalition, Christian Broadcasting Network, as well as a host of right-wing Christian evangelical organizations. These are the same organizations that support Bush, yet, as another poster pointed out earlier I/P seems to be the only forum on DU where the information commissars allow posters to cite such right-wing Republican sources as gospel on a regular basis.

[The Magistrate]

60. One Small Thing, Mr. Haywood

Settlers are civilians. It is true a few of them are essentially irregular militants, and that many go armed as a matter of self defense. These things might make a well directed attack aimed at such armed men legitimate, by the loose standards of this conflict, but it does not render legitimate the random snipings, and murderous home invasions aimed at killing women and children, that are frequently employed in attacks on settlements by Arab Palestinian irregulars.

It is probably a wiser policy to attack only Israeli civilians resident beyond the Green Line, and refrain from attacking Israeli civilians in Israel proper, but that is a seperate question, and one of expediency rather than legitimacy....

[bigbillhaywood]

61. Settlers are not civilians

They are armed invaders (and largely religious zealots at that). The argument that they are "armed as a matter of self defense" does not hold. If they were not participating in an illegal and unethical invasion of someone else's territory, they would have no need to "defend" themselves. So tell me, since you are The Magistrate, if I were to intentionally provoke a situation where I would be forced to defend my person through force of arms and killed someone in the process, would most courts (under the common or civil law) find me criminally liable or not guilty by reason of self-defense? A rhetorical question of course to which I already know the answer.

That being said are the families of these armed invaders (or "settlers" as they are more commonly known as) legitimate targets? Of course not. Whether they are killed intentionally or are "collateral damage" makes some difference. Unlike some of the other Palestinian partisans on this board, I am willing to accept that some collateral damage on both sides is unavoidable in this conflict. I actually more often have moral problems with Palestinian military tactics than Israeli ones (though I have problems with theirs from time to time as well). For me the issue is not with Israel's military tactics, but with their wholesale occupation, oppression and brutalization of an entire people.

[The Magistrate]

62. Of Course They Are Civilians, Mr. Haywood

They are not serving members of any formal military body, and very few of them are members of any embodied irregular force: these are the only categories the Geneva conventions recognize as combatants. It is not even accurate to say the greatest proportion of them are religious zealots; the majority simply live in what are in effect eastern suburbs of Jerusalem, and do so because it is cheap. They may be exercising poor judgement to do so, but that is not a capital offense, nor does it render them combatants. The analogy that you attempt is irrelevant to that question.

It is hardly my view, either, that every thing done by Israel in prosecuting this war is right, or that every thing done by the various Arab Palestinian bodies is wrong. The situation does not, however, to my view, boil cleanly down to one side subjecting the other to "wholesale occupation, oppression and brutalization of an entire people." The two parties are at war, and have been at war for a very long time: the Arab Palestinians are certainly on the losing side of it, and paying the forfeits natural to that position. The longer they continue to fight, the worse that position will become. The poor judgement and fanaticism of the leadership afflicting that people has been the leading cause of their ever more straitened condition, and this, unfortunately, shows no sign of altering soon. The bout of active hostilities commenced in the autumn of 2000 has been an unmitigated disaster for the people of Arab Palestine, and was no more necessary for them than was the U.S. invasion of Iraq.

[bigbillhaywood]

64. But they are invaders. And they are armed.

And settlements are illegal under international law. So perhaps it may be more accurate to classify them as armed criminals. In any case, I feel no sympathy for them when they are attacked (although I do feel some sympathy for their families).

As to your assesment of the I/P confilct in general, for me it boils down to power relationships. The Israelis are occupying the Palestinians, not the other way around--period. It's not just any war, it is a war of national liberation. And even more importantly for me, Israel is acting as an adjunct of American imperialism in the Middle East, so it is also a war based on American imperial aggression.

[The Magistrate]

72. The Illegality Of Settlements Under International Law, Sir

Is a more vexed question than many suppose, but even were it granted for the sake of argument, it would not convey the same sort of right to use reasonable force in prevention of a crime that would adhere between individuals in an ordinary civil condition. What would render the settlements illegal under international law is their being a government policy, and the crime is the government's.

Terms like "war of national liberation" and "imperial aggression" do not signify much to me, and certainly do not cause me to charge to one side or another of a conflict like a bull at a matador's cape. War is war; when two peoples engage in it, at least one of them is going to lose....

[bigbillhaywood]

76. Well, the objective material context of a war does matter to me.

In this case, it is a war of liberation against American imperialist hegemony. I believe this hegemony must be broken in order to build a more just system globally. Therefore I sympathize with efforts to break American imperialist rule, including the Palestinian struggle for liberation. And lets not pretend that the Israelis do not oppress the Palestinians on a daily basis, both within and beyond the Green Line. Although I do wish there was some better leadership on the Palestinians' side. However, I have no control over that.

[The Magistrate]

79. That Is Grand Phrasing, Mr. Haywood

The war between the peoples of Israel and Arab Palestine has no real relation to any struggle against U.S. hegemony; it long predates the assertion of any such hegemony, and is purely a local struggle over possession of land. At any number of points in its more than eighty years duration, it might easily have been won by the people of Arab Palestine, through the adoption of a more sensible policy than the course of communal murder adopted by its leadership. At any number of other points, a peace allowing satisfaction of the greater part of the legitimate aspirations of both peoples might well have been achieved. As things are beginning to look now, the government of Israel is going to impose a settlement of its choosing, whether justly or unjustly, and it has the power to do it.

[bigbillhaywood]

81. Yes, it started under America's imperial predecessor, the British

It may properly be said that the roots of the conflict started with the 1916 Balfour Declaration and erupted into open conflict in 1936. Then, as now, the Jews in British Mandate Palestine sided with the Western imperial power against the Muslim and Christian masses, because they had the assurance of the imperial power that they would be given their own state. Guess who ended up getting screwed in this deal?

1948, Israel established. Enter the Cold War. US wants a strategic toehold in the oil rich region to counter growing Soviet influence, anti-colonial Arab nationalism, and Nasser's socialist-leaning pan-Arab movement. Israel proves itself to be a worthy military power friendly to American interests, so the US throws its lot in with Israel, while cozying up to the autocracies of the Arabian peninsula (who, by virtue of their population to oil resource ratio have no need for Soviet aid, nor would these monarchs want such influence on their soil). After 1973 war and Nasser's death, US buys off Egypt and Jordan. Camp David accords. Fearing no retaliation from Egypt or Jordan, Israel invades Lebanon, kicks out PLO. Iraq and Iran engaged in brutal war. Palestinians only solid ally left is Soviet client state Syria, who do not have the military capability to fight Israel.

Israel and US clandestinely fund Islamic organizations such as Hamas to provide political counterweight to secular Soviet clients like Fatah, PFLP, DFLP, and as part of global CIA strategy involving Afghanistan to ally with the jihadists to provoke rebellion in Muslim regions of Soviet Union.

Soviet Union collapses. American imperial hegemony in Middle East complete. It has always been about the struggle against Western imperialism, Magistrate. First the British, then the US. I'm done for the night.

[The Magistrate]

82. It Started, Sir

In the doctrine of nationalism sweeping Europe in the mid to late nineteenth century, that held that the only way a people might express itself in full health was by embodiment in its own national state. Some Jews, under an impetus of persecution both long-standing and growing acutely in violence towards the end of that century, sought to achieve for their people this state. As desperate people will, they gave no particular concern to who or what might be harmed by securing for themselves what they felt was an imperative for survival. They manouvered very well, and might easily have been balked any number of times. Events by the middle of the twentieth century endowed this early determination with an air of prescience. Part of the art is playing the larger players well. The U.S. sought to buy Nasser, and were simply outbid by the Soviets, who had themselves initially backed Israel as a wedge against English control of the region.

[Violet_Crumble]

66. Armed self-defensive settlers...

I was impressed with the photos I saw yesterday of some of these settlers so very concerned with their own self-defence. They were busy defending themselves against Palestinians who were trying to harvest their crops by waving those rifles around and threatening the Palestinians. I'm just glad the brave souls of the IDF were there to help those settlers defend themselves by making sure that the Palestinians didn't harvest those crops. Who knows what would have happened without that display of self-defence! No vandalised olive trees, and crops that would have been gathered peacefully. Armageddon would have ensued after that sort of carry-on!!

Violet...

[The Magistrate]

68. The Thugs Engaged In That Sort Of Behavior, Ma'am

Are in my view not only combatants but criminals: far from protecting them, the Israeli army ought to arrest them, or at the very least, leave them to the defense those they injure might contrive. There is no excuse for that sort of action, and it cannot be condemned too strongly.

Nonetheless, in a situation where autos are sniped and homes invaded, people will tend to go armed.

[Violet_Crumble]

70. I think that goes both ways...

Nonetheless, in a situation where autos are sniped and homes invaded, people will tend to go armed.

That also applies to the Palestinian population, doesn't it? It's just that there does seem to be a mindset amongst some of those who claim they support Israel (not you) that a Palestinian who arms themselves is not just a combatant, but a terrorist...

Violet...

[The Magistrate]

73. Everyone Has The Right To Defend Themselves, Ma'am

The thing certainly does go both ways: sauce for the goose, after all....

[Violet_Crumble]

78. Definately...

Funnily enough, something so obvious seems to be the first thing that gets forgotten by a number of folk who view themselves as partisans for one side or the other...

Violet...

[Gimel]

101. Oslo agreements

Implementation of the Oslo accords, provided for joint patrols of Israelis and Palestinians to combat terrorism, and conflicts between the two parties. This would be the best way to deal with issues such as crop destruction and murderous attacks on either side. The IDF was unable to enter Palestinians areas except in cases of "hot pursuit" in order to arrest offenders. Obviously "policing" can't be done if one has only authority over one group of people. An entire system of justice would have to be legislated and instituted to deal with problems of this nature.

Arafat stopped the joint patrols, as the though things were getting two close to peace, apparently. Besides, it was getting close to the planned attacks on the US by Al Qaeida, so he wouldn't want to seem too chummy with Israel when bin Ladin as trying to recreate the world order.

[bigbillhaywood]

71. Their mere presence beyond the Green Line is a criminal act under

international law. Israel allows it. Expecting the IDF to do anything to stop settlers from harrassing, threatening, and attacking Palestinians is naive. The IDF has even stood by while mobs of settlers have engaged in anti-Arab pogroms. The moralistic and "rule of law" types on this board need a reality check.

[The Magistrate]

77. Their Mere Presence, Sir, Is Not Illegal

A government policy of transfering a portion of its population onto conquered lands is illegal.

That the Israeli armed forces do not police the settlers, and prevent and punish criminal acts they commit, is one of the most glaring failures of the Israeli government in this conflict. It weakens the cause of that state severely.

[Gimel]

93. Policing the settlements

Wouldn't that in effect indicate annexation? It seems the settlers are there on their own initiative. If they are also provided with police protection the claims that Israel is trying to annex the territories gains, it seems to me.

[Lithos]

94. No

Currently Israel has occupied the territories, under the Geneva Convention, this makes them responsible for insuring laws are enforced. Because the settlers are there in contravention to Agreements signed by all applicable parties, they are there illegally and should be removed.

L-

[The Magistrate]

95. The Settlers Are Provided With Protection, Ma'am

That is much of what the Israeli army does in those territories. In many instances, it is the Arab Palestinians who need protection from the settlers, and this the Israeli military does not provide. It damned well ought to. As a power in occupation, it has a responsibility to ensure civil order, which includes safeguarding property and persons for all residents. Israel avails itself of many of the benefits of occupier status, such as controlling former state lands, and condemning properties for security purposes: it cannot have the benefits while shirking the duties.

[Gimel]

99. Military vs police

by "policing' I tend to think of more ordinary crimes like theft, speeding, perhaps child abuse or violence between neighbors, etc. I think the settlements provide their own inner-community discipline to deal with such problems, through family courts or a system of community committees. For law-breaking between the settlements and the Arab communities, some other way of handling the issues, and I think they were left up to the settlements to provide their own security, from what I've read.

However, going back more than 15 years, there have been Arab attacks on the Jews traveling on roads to their settlements. There have been sniper attacks and bombs thrown at cars, as well as homes invaded and Jewish residents murdered.

This did not bring a general army operation into the areas. The Intifada attacking Israeli citizens did.

[The Magistrate]

104. But The Point, Ma'am

Is precisely that of disputes and law-breaking between the settler communities and their Arab Palestinian neighbors. The army protects the settlers from law-breaking against them by their Arab Palestinian neighbors, but claims no jusrisdiction over law-breaking by the settlers against their Arab Palestinian neighbors. As an occupying power, Israel is responsible for the maintainance of civil order, from whatever quarter the breaking of that originates, and as the situation is one of martial law in practice in those territories, this responsiblity devolves onto the Israeli army. Nor is there any question that stern action by the Israeli government against outrages by the settlers against their Arab Palestinian neighbors would be of great benefit to the state of Israel: it would greatly mollify the anger felt by Arab Palestinians, and so work to increase the real security of Israel and its people.

[Forkboy]

40. So people keep saying

*yawn* right back atcha!

[idontwantaname]

42. PROOF drdon326 and you too Gimel!!!!! PROOF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

heres a challange:

i would like you to post credible evidence of one instance of an ISM member who commited an aggressive act of violence which was NOT an act of self defense...

...and for every ONE you show me i will show you ONE HUNDRED acts of unwarranted attacks and ill treatment upon them by the IDF and state of Israel.

so let the number counting begin!

[Gimel]

43. I posted a resume of ISM

It tells you what their activities are. It does not claim that they are committing acts of aggression themselves. I have never claimed that the ISM members are committing aggressive acts of violence. What I said is that they are in a position to help bring peace, but they are prolonging the conflict by aiding attacks on Israelis. They support the Palestinians in concealing terrorists within the civilian population. They defend the acts of violence, be it stone throwing or homicide attacks, which Palestinians call martyrdom. Defending and concealing criminal acts and murderers is complicity with the crimes themselves.

[Forkboy]

44. Dig it back up for us,if you'd be so kind

[Gimel]

45. It's at the head of this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x73632#73729

[Forkboy]

46. Well hey,if David Bedein is good enough for Frontpage.com

then by golly he's good enough for us!!!

[Djinn]

47. that would be the report

written by two highly partisan authors who's work mostly appears on a website that is unashamedly right wing and pro Israeli hawks.

You can claim they're not right wing Gimel - but we can all read.

[drdon326]

50. Pssssst...heres an oldy but goody...

http://home.comcast.net/~jat.action/ISM_essay_ref15.htm


gee, whaddya think that lovely ISM banner means??

[Djinn]

57. Am I missing something

For a start this appears to have been erected by a student group with links to New Jersey Solidarity - I'm not sure if NJS are even linked to ISM, they have nothing suggesting that on their website not even a link on their link page.

I'm not sure how this "proves" that ISM support and enable terrorism - even if the poster had "endorsed by the ISM" it still wouldn't prove anything, this is a statement of some people in the US's personal feelings (which is constitutionally protected)

Could you explain why this is

a) anything to do with ISM - I admit I'm not terribly au fait with every campus group in the US of their affiliations so I could be wrong about links between ISM and NJS, but even if there are links, this wasn't erected BY the NJS and having links to groups does not mean one agrees with everything that groups says or does (after all Israel has links with the UN right?

and

b) an endorsement of acts of violence against civilians?

[Gimel]

67. "protection"

this is a statement of some people in the US's personal feelings (which is constitutionally protected)

This does not include advocating the overthrowing of the government. Advocating the murder of Israel is allowed by the constitution under freedom of expression? Maybe it is, but shouldn't be. It wouldn't be allowed in Israel, and rightfully so. A bumper sticker alluding to assassination of Barak was outlawed in Israel.

NJ Solidarity is a branch of ISM.

[Djinn]

75. WTF

you can not "murder" Israel so we'll leave that hyperbole aside for a minute.

As for America's right to freedom of speech then I'm afraid you ARE allowed to call for the overthrow of a government, the redneck militias spend half their time advocating the overthrow of their OWN govt (may well be trickier now with teh Patriot Act et al) and an American citizen could most certainly stand outside the White House with a sign saying - "the govt of Australia are evil and must be crushed" without any fear of being arrested.

The fact that Israel does not recognise freedom of speech is irrelevant to the freedoms or otherwise on US campus'.

According to NJS and ISM, they are NOT a "branch" of ISM but maybe they're lying I dunno - but the fact is even IF they were, this banner was erected by group AFFILIATED with NJS not NJS themselves.

Affiliated groups don't have to agree 100% after all doesn't a Moledet member serve as a Minister in SHaron's government - would it be fair to say that ALL parties/members in the ruling coalition support expanding settlements, beleives in the nonsense of God "giving" Israel to the Jews and advocates the "transfer" of people based on their ethnicity??

Sorry - nice try

[Gimel]

83. Reports on ISM and NJS

Are obscured. Although I remember when the conference there was planned and canceled the connection was made between the two. However, as that seems obscure, we'll leave that issue aside for the moment.

Advocating Israel's destruction is perhaps not technically advocating murder, although it is in fact that, as many Israelis would die in the struggle, but if we're not going to allow any analogy, then most posts would be deleted.

As the discussion was about Israel, the ISM and allowing entrance through Israel of ISM advocates and volunteers, I think it is appropriate to bring up the issue as it relates to Israeli law. Advocating assassination of the head of state is a crime, both in the US and Israel. Advocating destruction of the state is against the constitution of the US and not protected by freedom of speech. Conspiring to overthrow the government is the charge.

[Djinn]

85. Nope

First of all the banner didn't advocate anyone's assasination - it culd even be taken for a desire for a bi-national one state solution. I have no idea though, this STUDENT GROUP (ie not the NJS or the ISM) could be advocating a totally anti-Jewish message for all I know, but THAT wouldn't be illegal in the US either - Israeli law is IRRELEVANT to students living in and citizens of the US.

If you want to take the line that this demonstrates the legitamacy of banning ISM volunteers/members from travelling to Israel or the OT then it's STILL wrong as this group is NOT the ISM, they supposedly have "links" with a group that you state is a "branch" of ISM which has been repeatedly refuted.

"Advocating Israel's destruction is perhaps not technically advocating murder, although it is in fact that, as many Israelis would die in the struggle"

Does the fact that many many Palestinians have died during and after the struggle to establish and expand Israel mean that the nation of Israel itself is a "murderer" - people die when shot by the IDF do you agree that this is murder?

[The Magistrate]

86. The Banner's Slogan, Ma'am

Is a pretty standard piece of boiler-plate, generally understood to mean that Israel is "occupied territory" that must be liberated by destruction of the Zionist entity. It is unlikely the people who put it up were unaware of this. They do have the right to say any damned fool thing they please, of of course, just as other people have a right to kick up a hellacious fuss over it.

Some of these people are being rather disingenuous to style themselves as peace activists: they are non-violent activists, but that is really not quite the same thing. They are simply seeking victory by other means.

[Djinn]

87. Like I said Mag

For all I know the poster makers could well be advocating what you state (which STILL wouldn't make them terrorists in the same way that those who wanted Northern Ireland to rejoin Ireland but never shot at anyone or blew anything up weren't terrorists)

BUT and it's a big BUT - they are NOT ISM, they'er not even NJS who have been alledged (erroneously) to be a "branch of" ISM.

When asked for proof that ISM are "terrorists" drdon posted this pic, which has no link to ISM and doesn't actually advocate terrorism.

You seem to be suggesting that an activist of any kind can not be a peace advocate - does that apply to Gandhi? - personally I'm not a pacifist and would not be a member of any pacifist organisation - that's NOT to say I don't think peace is preferable to war.

[The Magistrate]

88. Ghandi, Ma'am, Did Not Advocate Peace

Ghandi sought to impose his will on the English by a particular means that he felt most apt to the task, and suited to the population he sought to mobilize. The non-violent method, after all, requires violence by others to achieve its full political effect; it depends on brutal over-reaction by the police and soldiery to turn people, including their own patrons, against them. If Southern police in the U.S. forty years ago had not turned dogs and hoses and clubs on Civil Rights marchers, but instead simply waved as they walked on by, the movement would never have resulted in effective legislation.

To my mind, a peace advocate would urge each side to understand the other, to see the justice in the other's positions, and urge each party to moderate and relenquish the use of violence. That latter would apply even to a person who was not of pacifist conviction, as matters reach a point in disputes, and have in this case, where the simple fact of reciprocal violence is itself one of the leading fuels that continues the conflict, regardless of any rights or wrongs of the case.

[Gimel]

89. NJS organizer Kates

Organizer Charlotte Kates told me peaceful resistance is the fest's guiding principle. Yet she noted that she, as well as the sponsoring organization, the New Jersey Solidarity Movement - an offshoot of International Solidarity - supports Palestinian homicide bombers.

The NY Times Profile by Brian Carnell:

Which kind of begs the question as to why she's upset at people trying to block her conference based on charges of anti-Semitism. Surely that tactic, regardless of whether it is right or wrong, is several orders of magnitude less objectionable than advocating in favor of terrorist attacks that intentionally target civilians.

NYT Profile of Charlotte Kates

[drdon326]

90. *SHOCKING*.....The head of NJSM supports terrorists.

hey, at least shes honest in advocating the murder of jews.
The Hitler Youth would have been proud.


The rest of the ISM use double-speak to advocate murder....
oh,yeah....theyre "PEEEEEEE-ce AAAACT-IVISTS"....my ass.

[Gimel]

91. Very up-front

Here is more on the symposium which was to run there, lectures and demonstrations given by ISM members:

The three-day event plans to train attendees to promote divestiture from Israeli contacts, and to celebrate Palestinian resistance, and work to build our own voices of resistance. NJS's spokeswoman calls the hatefest an issue of "free speech," but the group's admitted intention to CELEBRATE suicide bombings belies its actual purpose. Although calling itself a pro-Palestinian venue, NJS is actually a clan which demonizes Israel, Israelis and Zionist Jews. This clan advocates the destruction of a sovereign nation, and seeks to make refugees out of Israeli Jews.

...

http://www.think-israel.org/zarifa.hatefest.html

More news as the "grass-roots" conference was moved to Ohio:

The national student conference of the Palestine Solidarity Movement, originally planned for October at New Jersey’s Rutgers University, has been moved to November at Ohio State University.

...

Others, including Nahla Saleh, an O.S.U. graduate student active in the Committee for Justice in Palestine and spokesperson for the Palestine Solidarity Movement conference, say the conference was moved because New Jersey Solidarity violated "democratic procedures" in planning the conference.

“They branched off” from Palestine Solidarity Movement, Saleh said. “They will still have their October meeting but it is not the official P.S.M. conference,” she said.

....

After the New Jersey Solidarity group split from the Palestine Solidarity Movement, the Committee for Justice in Palestine sought to host the conference by applying for space with Ohio State officials.



Also from the ISM site:
FAQs:
On your web-site, you give advice to volunteers on how to lie to the Israeli authorities so you can get into the country and the occupied areas. Why tell lies?

Despite the fact that the ISM is not an illegal organization in Israel, the Israeli border control authorities automatically deport anyone they suspect of having pro-Palestinian sympathies. Under both Israeli and International law, we should have the right, as international observers, to visit both Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories. If Israel was not preventing access, there would be no need for these deceptions which we do find distasteful. You may wonder if Israel has nothing to hide, why it is so keen to keep us out?
http://www.palsolidarity.org/about/lies.php

Rationalizing illegal entry, lying and of course terrorist support.

[Djinn]

102. Nice of you to contradict yourself Gimel

"“They branched off” from Palestine Solidarity Movement, Saleh said. “They will still have their October meeting but it is not the official P.S.M. conference,” she said."

NJS - is NOT part of ISM - they may have "branched off" in the same way that more radical groups often branch off from more temperate ones but they are NOT a branch of ISM. Also please try to address the fact that this poster was (according to drdon's link) actually erected by people other than NJS.

The only people who say that NJS and ISM are affiliated are various right winger (who you keep posting)

The worst accusation against ISM that you have actually managed to support with evidence is "justifying illegal entry" oooohhhh how terroristic of them - because as we all know if people turn up at airports and say very honestly "I'm here to support Palestinians" the Israeli government gives them a lift to the territories and wishes them all the best

[Violet_Crumble]

74. It seems a lot of us are...

Proof that the ISM supports and enables terrorism? That's easy! Like any other organisation that tries to help the Palestinian people, just the fact that they're trying to help them constitutes a support and enabling of terrorism. Ask yrself why these organisations aren't doing the non-terroristic thing and helping by sending pizzas to the IDF? Then you will have yr answer!!

For those intent on linking groups to the ISM, wouldn't it be simpler and more successful to go here http://www.palsolidarity.org/ and click on the menu for local chapters? Then you can find sites like this one http://www.ajpp.canberra.net.au/ and you can post the link and shriek: 'See!!! I told you they support and enable terrorism!!!' Just look at what their aims are!!

• Evacuation of the Israeli settlements in the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem

• Withdrawal of Israeli forces from the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem

• Demolition of the Apartheid Wall

• Respect for human rights in the region

• The right of return for Palestinian refugees

Now try and tell me these Jihadofascists aren't supporting terrorism with aims like that!!!!'

p.s. for Djinn - ajpp have a really good mailing list that you might be interested in getting onto...

Violet...

[Djinn]

80. am I blind

couldn't find a link/info re their mailing list??

As for the who is and who isn't affiliated with ISM - you'd think you'd do a five minute check before making that assertion (or the assertion that the above authors are NOT right wing - still laughing at that one) before stating in and making yourself look a little stupid.

I mean I could insist that the Kahane organisation is simply the US affiliate of the Likud party but I'd look a fair twat to do so

[Violet_Crumble]

92. No...

I should have told you to click on 'contact us' and send them an email asking to include you on their mailing list. Mind you, a lot of the stuff going on seems to happen in Canberra (the hub of the civilised world as we know it), so it might not be as handy for you as it is for me...

btw, if anyone cares to know where Violet and friends will be on the evening of the 17th August, this is where I'll be:

ILAN PAPPE PUBLIC MEETING
On Tuesday 17 August, Ilan Pappe, Jewish Israeli Historian, author and member of the Advisory Board of the Council for Palestinian Restitution and Reparation, will speak at a Public Meeting in Canberra. This Public Meeting will be at the Reception Room, South Building, London Circuit and will begin at 6pm.

http://www.ajpp.canberra.net.au/events.html

Violet...

[drdon326]

52. Uh-huh....

what part of "terorist supporter/enabler" is so difficult
for you to understand?? I never claimed they directly engaged in direct terrorism-but terrorists need behind the scenes supporters.

"The group freely admits to:

Spotting and reporting IDF troops in military operations and reporting their whereabouts to armed Palestinian units. Since ISM members are not Arabs and unarmed, they can provide reports on troop movements to terrorists that take refuge in population centers.

Intervening with IDF troops at checkpoints in order to facilitate movement of Palestinians between cities. Who knows how many terrorists have been able to infiltrate into Israel with the help of this group?

Preventing Israel from monitoring and closing off the tunnels that Palestinian terror groups have dug along the border with Egypt. When Rachel Corrie was killed, she was trying to block an IDF tractor that was carving a path in the direction of these underground tunnels. She was not shielding a house."

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[drdon326]

56. Nice M.O. ......

I guess it's always easier to shoot the messenger when you don't want to deal with the message.

[Forkboy]

59. So no real proof right?

My M.O. may not be to your liking,but at least it's not based in right wing propaganda.

'night Don.

[Violet_Crumble]

69. Uh-huh...

But it's okay to shoot the messenger when it's not right-wing swill (and why shouldn't we shoot the messenger in that case, when both the messenger and the message stink to high heaven?). I seem to recall non right-wing messengers being shot on a regular basis in this forum..eg Al-Guardian, Reuters, etc. And I remember one article having that shoot the messenger thing done on it because it's author was studying geology and not international relations. Anyway, I'm making a mental note to myself. We Must Not Criticise Right-Wing Sources!

Got it...

Violet...

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[drdon326]

31. *yawn*

great sense of humor....

i was just in boston and went to a red sox game...sat behind
home plate....great stadium.

[bigbillhaywood]

33. Fenway is a great place. Home plate? You must have paid through the

nose for those tix. Who were they playing? Score?

[drdon326]

34. $75 dollars....about 6 weeks ago

damned if i remember who they played.

[newyorican]

36. geez...

glad you didn't do my stents...much to high strung...

[drdon326]

55. newyorican.....

lol.....there's always next time.

And I will do a great job.....trust me.:evilgrin:

[newyorican]

96. Meet the Peace Activists...

I am a 57 year old Catholic Sister and a university Professor of Religious Studies who has been actively involved with both Palestinian and Israeli peace groups, especially the Women in Black since 1995.

I have made six trips to the Middle East, most recently in the summer of 2002. On that trip we were documenting the injustices done towards the Palestinians and bringing that news to citizens of the U.S. I have been particularly concerned about how Palestinians, from small children through university students, are having their education curtailed. They are blocked from going to school. To build a just and peaceful Middle East, education is extremely important.

I have been with both Palestinian and Israelis professors and teachers who are begging the international community to interven to help deescalate the violence that is destroying the hope of both peoples. I encourage persons of all ages and backgrounds to go and be among the Palestinians, to learn what is going on, and to spread that news.

Nonviolent resistance is one of the most effective means of bringing about a more just social order as we have seen with Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King, Jr. For nonviolenct resistance to work, those who are oppressed need to win the conscience of the others. This can happen as more and more of the truth is known and shared. Every step towards justice for Palestinians is a step towards security for Iraelis. Being part of the International Solidarity movement at this time is not only a benefit for Palestinians and Israelis, it contributes to a more stable Middle East and hopes for a more peaceful world.

Sounds like a real "terror supporting thug" to me :shrug:

My name is Danny Dworsky. I've served in the occupied territories since August of 1976 when I volunteered for active duty. I am one of 6 soldiers that survived my original platoon. I was honorably discharged from full duty in September of 1979 I am currently a reservist in the IDF serving as a field agent for the Military Justice Department METZACH since 1992. I am a first Sergeant and my military ID is DN BDRK 2297771. If the ISM is Guilty of anything they are guilty of making things not as bad as they could be. Last October I was doing my duty as an investigator. Armed gangs wearing morning prayer parafernalia were terrorizing innocent women and children during an olive harvest in the village of Yousouf. These actions were sometimes carried out in broad daylight in front of Civilian Police and IDF armored and infantry patrols. No one interceded on the part of these people. They were verbaly abused obsenely in arabic spoken in distinct Brooklyn accents. They were shot at and their tools were grabbed away from them. I caught much of this on film and Digital video up until the time I was attacked and my camera's were smashed. What I managed to capture was the Police and soldiers faces and the numbers on the vehicles that brought them to the scene. All police deny having seen, heardor even having found the place. This is a lie. The soldiers were less than three feet away. The two police men, who couldn't find the place, were leaning against the patrol car between me and the Settlers when I was told that if I pursued the matter, I would have a bullet fired "accidently" into the back of my head. Who were the bad guys here? ISM keeps the Sharon and Mofaz's IDF and lunatic Settlers wearing Tephilin and Talis' like some nightmare version of Fiddler meets Lord of the flies, from carrying out ethnic cleansing. They preach non violence to Palestinians. These ISM kids are my hero's. They save lives. They are practicing the purest form of what the great Rabbi's called "Tikun Olam" (*Tikun* - Repair) (*Olam* - World) It is upon all of us a Jews to "Repair the world". As a jew I owe a terrible debt to the humanity of these volunteer peace makers who are paying my tab with their own blood. My Family is available and our Home is open to everyone of these kids. They know that they have a hot meal and a bed waiting for them anytime they need it. We've been to funerals for realatives wounded and children lost to suicide bombers. If I thought for a second that the ISM had anything to do with terrorism, would I help them? As my kids would say, "Not!" Hugs not Slugs, Daniel M. Dworsky

Now there's an "ISM punk" if I ever saw one.. too bad she would probably feed you your teeth if you had the nads to say it to her face...oh well, anonimity breeds a stupid kind of saftey...

Last year I went to Rafah to support ISM I am a 49 year old fat, balding, English Accountant and Father of 4 and Grandfather of 3. and not a gullible teenager. My great grandfather was Jewish expelled from Russia.

but, but...I thought they were young impressionable "punks"...another myth sh-sh-shattered"

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/WO0304/S00272.htm

[drdon326]

97. **sniff**....thats really beautiful...(lol)

funny how they dont mention being lookouts for terrorists,
interfering with the apprehension of terrorists and
tunnel-protecting....guess that wouldn't exactly help
their propaganda circus.

Thankfully someone buys this crap.

[newyorican]

103. Like I said...

anonimity breeds an odd flavor of bravery...

[number6]

98. I am a 57 year old Catholic Sister ....

sounds like the typical terrorist helper to me .....
:eyes: :evilgrin: ;):smoke:
those ISM people are probly a bunch of Libroolz
who luv terrorists and vote for democrats :crazy: