Catholic Church equates anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism

[Gimel]

The Catholic Church condemned anti-Zionism as a cover for anti-Semitism by means of a joint statement issued by a forum of Catholic-Jewish intellectuals this week.

The announcement was made at a gathering of religious, academic and other leading Jewish and Catholic figures in Buenos Aires.

"We oppose anti-Semitism in any way and form, including anti-Zionism that has become of late a manifestation of anti-Semitism," the statement said.

This is the first time that anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism have been equated by the Catholic Church.

Link

[bigbillhaywood]

1. The Catholic Church, now there's a pillar of moral leadership

According to them we shouldn't be voting for Kerry or using condoms.

[bigbillhaywood]

2. I also seem to remember some stuff about abortion, child molestation,

Galileo's wacky theories, Jews being Christ-killers, and some other great stuff the Church has come up with, addressed (or not addressed) throughout history up to today. I sure am glad I'm an atheist, so I don't have to pay attention to every edict coming from some religious leader(s) to make my mind up on things. I prefer to use reason.

[ex_jew]

3. Isn't it odd that "The Catholic Church" would choose a forum of

religious, academic and other leading Jewish (?) and Catholic figures in Buenos Aires as the means of communicating an important official position. I'm not Catholic, but I would have expected someone in Rome - (a Cardinal or some such individual) to speak for "The Catholic Church".
Maybe even the Pope. I believe the Vatican also has a newspaper which it can use to communicate its position on matters of great importance.

I would also note that only selected sentences from this statement are given, rather than an entire document.

In short, this report sounds a little over-blown. Nice try at lumping Palestinians fighting for a scrap of their homeland (and their sympathizers world-wide) with Nazis who sent Jews to the gas chambers, however.

[Gimel]

11. Are you asking

that such statements only come from the Pope himself, the head of the Church? As a lower-level announcement, it does make news and is important as the Church tries to clean up it's act.

The complex issues in the I/P won't be solved unless all these important and related issues are also discussed. The Palestinian homeland won't survive it anti-semitism is the driving force for its supporters.

[Classical_Liberal]

13. Clinton and Jimmy Carter are antisemites

Yeah Yeah Yeah! Whatever. The two state solution is not antizionism.

[Gimel]

14. Supporters

The class of objects can be subdivided, obviously. Many are supporters of a peaceful Palestinian state, including myself. No one said that all supporters of a Palestinian state are antisemitic.

However, those that are will not be satisfied with a compromise and will not accept the two-state solution.

[bigbillhaywood]

17. Ahhh...

"Many are supporters of a peaceful Palestinian state, including myself." Peaceful or just submissive? I think you are in favor of the Palestinians having whatever Israel chooses to give them, and their best offer so far would have given them a non-contiguous collection of Bantustans with East Jerusalem under Israeli control-- not a viable State.

You know, the whole "right of return" issue could probably be solved with economic reparations to the refugees (Israel could always beg the US for some more money to cover the costs), but I think Israel is probably so arrogant as to never agree to such a settlement, because it might imply some historical guilt on their part.

[The Magistrate]

19. 'Peaceful Or Just Submissive', Sir?

That is hardly a useful attitude. Concepts of pride anf honor are one of the leading reasons the political and military choices of Arab Nationalist leadership have been so consistently poor in this conflict. They are very poor guides, though they stir the blood of the romantic.

Cash liquidation of claims for lost properties and livelihoods, by the heirs of those who fled in '48 is certainly the only feasibile means of resolving that matter, and one that would be of great benefit to the situation overall: people with something to lose tend towards reasonable behavior, and nothing could go farther to ensuring peace than creating a sizeable propertied class among Arab Palestians. There is even some polling data that suggests the course would be a popular one among that people. Unfortunately, the political leadership of Arab Palestine insists that right of return can only be satisfied by wholesale repatriation of the heirs of those who fled to where their ancestors originated, and refuses even to indicate they would accept any other result as an outcome of negotiation. That is never going to occur, and so long as that is insisted on by that leadership, the matter will continue on its current course.

[bigbillhaywood]

20. I am certain Fatah would accept cash reparations for the refugees if

offered by Israel (and surely people on both sides of the table have thought of it). But as a professional negotiator myself, let me tell you why the PA will not float the idea first (though they would likely accept it as a settlement). First of all, when negotiating it is preferable to stubbornly stick to seemingly unreasonable demands on the basis of principle, that way when you compromise even a little, it seems like a large concession to the other side.

Problem is that it will also seem like a large concession to your constituency as well. That's why the PA has to wait for Israel to make the offer first, towards the end of hammering out a final settlement. If they agree to cash reparations too soon, Hamas and others will take advantage of the situation and destabilize the PA's authority, thus weakening their bargaining position.

Of course, in order to get to such a final stage compromise, the Israelis must make many concessions first-- like removing ALL settlements, giving the Palestinians a viable, contiguous state, including East Jerusalem. However, the Israelis have consistently rejected all of these concessions and would probably reject cash reparations as well, even if the idea was presented by the PA.

You want to talk about "pride and honor", how about this Jerusalem as the "eternal and undivided" capital of Israel bullshit? What kind of stupid religious nonsense is that? The fact remains that Israel knows as long as they are a US client (with buckets of cash and military aid rolling in every year) they don't have to give the Palestinians a viable state or cash reparations for the refugees, so they wont. Again, this is all about power relationships. The Israelis have all the power and will give none of it up unless forced to. I negotiate union contracts all the time. And guess what, the company doesn't give you shit unless they believe you can shut them down.

For all your talk of the failure of Palestinian leadership, it doesn't matter what the Palestinian leadership does as long as the US is supporting Israel. The only solution to the conflict is a major shift in US foreign policy. In other words, the US says "Yo, Israel, you're gonna give the Palestinians a viable state or we're cutting off aid-- we will assist with cash reparations and no-interest loans for infrastructure building in Palestine. Palestinians, you will accept the deal or we'll continue to let the Israelis kick your ass for the next 50 years". Hamas and other militant groups will continue operations, but will quickly lose popular support and be crushed by the Palestinian government. Unfortunately, I do not see this kind of foreign policy shift happening in the US short of a political and social revolution. Here's to hoping that day will come.

[The Magistrate]

24. We Are Not That Far Apart, Mr. Haywood

And it is not my inclination to shed a great deal of blood over small details.

The negotiating ploy you refer to is, of course, a familiar one. It cannot be used as a one size fits all device, however. It works only where both sides need to make a deal with the other, and neither has the power to force its chosen solution on the other. Those conditions do not obtain in this situation. The Arab Palestinians need a deal much more than do the Israelis, and the Israelis do possess the power to force a chosen solution unilaterally on their opponents, who have no power whatever to prevent their doing so. Therefore, the advancing of unreasonable demands by the Arab Palestinian leadership, and their insistence on the Israelis providing them concessions first, will simply convince the Israelis, and many on-lookers to the process, that the Arab Palestinian leadership is unreasonable, and cannot be dealt with in any reasonable manner.

You are correct that cash compensation is not particularly popular on the Israeli side. The formula prefered there is that there should be compensation for the properties lost by Jews forced to flee Arab countries to refuge in Israel in the years after '48, and that these funds should be used to compensate Arab Palestinian claims. While there are certainly grounds for such claims by the descendants of Jews who were forced out of Arab lands at that time, it does not strike me as anything likely ever to materialize, and raising it in this connection seems more an attempt at evading the issue that has to be dealt with than anything else.

It is generally, Sir, a poor move to call anything in debate over this conflict "stupid religious nonsense". There is a great deal of religiousity at the bottom of this matter, on all sides, and the charge can be made in too many directions to be really useful. Moslem insistence of Jerusalem as a holy center, to the point of rioting in vindication of the claim, is just one point on the other side that couild be similarly described. The attachment of the Jewish faith to Jerusalem is a matter of historical fact, and a central element of the religion for at least two and a half millenia. This is something a little different than the idea of fighting to preserve honor and pride; the latter in particular is a damned poor guide to conduct, and one frequently used to justify self-destructive and criminal behavior in individual lives.

It seems to me that it matters very much what Arab Palestinian leadership does, as this has great effect on the politics of Israel, and the politics of the matter in the United States. Reasonable behavior by the Arab Palestinian leadership strengthens those elements in Israel who desire a peace of compromise; unreasonable and violent behavior strengthens those elements in Israel who desire a total victory. Unreasonable and violent behavior by the Arab Palestinian leadership hardens the predominant conviction among the people in the United States that Israel is the side to be supported, and that no concession to its enemies can be made.

Nonetheless, Sir, the solution you suggest, both in its outline and in the means of achieving it, is the only practicable solution to this conflict. An exercise of force majure imposed on both parties is necessary, and the United States is the only power in a position to carry it out.

[seventhson]

18. I think that overgeneralizing is dangerous in this instance

there are even Israelis who are for a one-state democracy with full integration of Palestinians into one Israeli-Palestinian state.

But I think equating those who oppose right wing Zionism with antiSemites is wrong. It is the (arguably) "Zionist" policy of neocolonialism and displacement and occupation which are opposed - not the Jewish people and NOT due to hatred of people for their religion, ethnicity or heritage.

It is critically importasnt to make these distinctions if we are to discuss the matter rationally.

It is stupid and damaging IMO for Jews to embrace a position which equates opposing the "Zionism" of Sharon with hatred of Jewish people.

Even Rabin opposed the sort of Zionism that Sharon and Bush are pushing (which I would argue is a fascist-tinged form of Zionism that does not represent true Judaism or true Judaic Zionism at all))

[Jim Sagle]

4. Good move by the Church.

:thumbsup:

[Djinn]

5. No anti-semitism

is looking the other way while people are marched off to concentration camps while you keep up a nice relationship with the Nazi's. You'd think the Catholic Church with their experience would know the difference. How many ageing Nazi's went to Buenos Aires again?

But Frankly I don't listen to these anachronistic morons in regard to contraception, sexuality, morality or anything else so why would I listen to them on this.

[Gimel]

12. Rather

far-fetched attempt to undermine the importance of throwing out the demons of a major religious institution.

[Djinn]

22. what was far fetched?

given their history I'm spurious that this is anything more than wallpaper on behalf of a church suffering serious image problems right now.

After their actions during the Nazi reign the Catholic Church has absolutely no credibility on what is and isn't anti-semitic. And you can argue it until your blue in the face but anti-zionism does not and can equal anti-semitism - semite (or even Jewish to be more accurate) does not and never has equalled ZIONIST.

[Jim Sagle]

23. Because they're right?

:shrug:

[seventhson]

6. The problem with this is that Zionism is not monolithic and

there are Jews who vehemently oppose Zionism.

Are they "racist" (which is another problem with these terms- geneticists have already concluded that there is only one race, the human race, and that there are no distinct races - hence even the word "racism" is a false term - perhaps we need a new replacement term such as ethnophobia or ethno-odium to describe what should no longer be called "racism")?

Some forms of Zionism are tolerant and inclusive and kind to "strangers"/Palestinians whereas other forms of Zionism are, in themselves, definitely ethnocentric and ethno-odious.

It is as foolish to generalize in this instance as it is in any instance whether it is to equate Zionism with racism or anti-Zionism with antiSemitism (Semitism being another unwieldy term- since Arabs are arguably Shemites just like Jews). Jews and Arabs are, after all, cousins fighting over the inheritance.

Not by any means can all those who oppose the right wing secular Zionists and violent fundamentalists (who are allied often with right wing militant "Christian" fundamentalists) be legitimately described as antisemitic.

Neither can all Zionists be legitimately described as "racists" oir ethno=phobes (although ethnocentricism might often apply).

But National and ethnic pride are legitimate emotions provided they do not demean or degrade other human beings (which unfortunately usually happens with almost any peoples)

Xenophobia and misanthropism are always wrong -- but in the conflict over inheritances (especially religious ones) simple black and white declarations like these are pretty useless and probably counterproductive as it is further encouragement for the refusal of fundamentalists on both sides in the middle east conflict to make peace for the good of ALL their people.

I understand why they did it - the pressure on the Catholic hierarchy to do acts of contrition for their abysmal record during the Holocaust to lift a finger to save the Jews if Europe and the likely profiteering of the Vatican is immense and justified. But this token act which is as feeble and hypocritical as the apology (if any) of the church for child abuse does NOTHING to improve the modern day situation.

As long as fundemantalist right wing Zionism promotes exclusive Israeli rights to Jerusalem and the Temple mount and the west bank to Jews (with the right to exclude non-Jews)- it will continue to enflame the situation and result in the deaths of more innocent Jews and Palestinians. That form of Zionism is even hateful to the majority of Israelis I would venture to claim.

The Zionism which says the Jews have a right to a sovereign homeland in a land shared with their Arab cousins and fellow Abrahamites is NOT an evil thing and it is a Zionsim I can embrace.

Simplistic publicity stunts like this, though evidently heartfelt and well-meaning - will only tend IMHO to enflame the violence by endorsing a philosophy which often has violence as its primary methodology without making any distinctions between those for,ms of Zionism which respect the human rights of the Palestinians and Arabs and those which do not/

It is simply not as simple as equating antiZionism with antiSemitism.

And those who oppose Zionism are no more monolithic than the Zionists are. There are truly hateful antiSemites and there are righteous Jews who are antiZionist. So this declaration is really superficial and mostly useless public relations and propaganda.

[The Magistrate]

7. Misanthropism Is Always Wrong, Mr. Son?

You wound me, Sir, indeed you do, and deeply too.

"Misanthropism is how the Devil falls in love."

[seventhson]

8. why?

do you hate humanity?

[The Magistrate]

9. My Opinion Of Us, Sir

Is not very high. We are clever monkeys, when all is said and done. Do not, however, imagine my general strictures are not applied to myself....

"I know of nothing against him except that he is a human being: that ought to suffice to hang any man."

[seventhson]

10. I see

I am driven by my love of humanity in all its foibles - we are, as the Talmud says "the image of God"

I believe that we are souls caught in the drama of enlightenment - and that our failures lie in the fact that we have this freedom of discovery in an impermanent plane of reality.

Ultimately we return to our Creator either more enlightened or in need of more freedom and time to reach the Highest.

[bemildred]

16. Be of good cheer, Sir.

You have excellent company. I suppose I should drag in
Mr. Kant's quote again here. I take a measured misanthropy
to be the result of a sound examination of the evidence.

I have finished M. Grousset, and I must say his work supports
a certain jaundiced view as to what may be expected from man,
or at least man's governments, most of which closely resemble
armed gangs of bandits.

This story does seem a bit iffy, vague, repetitive, and lacking
in any echo elsewhere in the press. I was wondering what a
"Catholic-Jewish intellectual" was anyway? And what might be
the relationship of the Catholic luminaries invoked here to the
Church hierarchy? But we merely amuse ourselves with these
questions.

From the crooked timber of humanity, nothing entirely straight
was ever made."

[IndianaGreen]

15. They also equate abortion with murder

which means that their batting average is zero!

[brainshrub]

21. I love being Catholic but the Church does not think for me.

And there is nothing inherently anti-semitic about being against Zionism.

That's like saying your are anti-Catholic if you condemn the church for it's actions. (We Catholics do that all the time.)